DPS display could easily be solved with a system already in game.

This thread is the reason why I hate new age MMOs... - .-;;

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Fixed it a lil. As a WHM I can get kicked, yelled at, and harassed if I don't do my job, just like a tank can. As others have said, it isn't fair that dps can just slide by under everyones radar since there is no way to legally tell them they are doing poor dps. DPS players know this -- which is why you'll see people having sub 200 numbers in i130 gear even in easy content like WoD...

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i have seen more than 1 healer go afk for some trials and WoD , maybe a heal here and there , but afk 90% of the time and no1 dies , easy content is easy.

every boss has some DPS check mechanic in form of adds , or burst phase , and u can see if dps failed thanks to that. Too bad u can focus all your rage on a single DPS eh? :P

Tanks have it harder , since u cant go afk or lazy mode (well in some encounters u can , nearly all the primals are 1 tank only now)

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

This thread is the reason why I hate new age MMOs... - .-;;

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Whew, this insightful comment really adds some weight into this thoughtful discussion.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

With the exception of something like Demon Wall, do meaningful DPS checks actually exist outside of Coil? I mean, static raiders mostly will and do use parsers already. Generally speaking, the biggest problem if DF Coil runs are the issue is ignorance of the fights.

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Titan EX does. Ifrit EX does. Ultima (both) does. There are only more enrage timers to go, it is basically the go-to test of DPS capability. We already saw how many people failed to beat the heart of Titan HM in 2.0 on top of actually dodging stuff, I find it hard to believe that 3.0 will be any different. Not that we can say anything, numbers are baaaaad.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

Pretty much this.

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Still of the belief that raiding and parser use only exists in XIV I see.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

Whew, this insightful comment really adds some weight into this thoughtful discussion.



Titan EX does. Ifrit EX does. Ultima (both) does. There are only more enrage timers to go, it is basically the go-to test of DPS capability. We already saw how many people failed to beat the heart of Titan HM in 2.0 on top of actually dodging stuff, I find it hard to believe that 3.0 will be any different. Not that we can say anything, numbers are baaaaad.

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You also have the quadruple demon wall in AK HM... If it didn't leave you off on the mob set that you wiped on, I would've had at least 4 abandons there because of the dps. Mind you that you have to be atrociously bad to fail the dps check for this...

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Still of the belief that raiding and parser use only exists in XIV I see.

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The requirements, DPS checks, mechanics in other games are different. Raiding in XIV is not the same as raiding in Hello Kitty Island online. Your raiding/parsing experience in this game is only applicable to this conversation.

Like I said to you and the many naysayers. Not pushing content until it's nerfed is not a bad thing. But you're obviously lacking a perspective when coming into this conversation when you haven't experienced the requirement to meet a strict DPS check.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

The fact you actually think that that reason is a cop-out, SCREAMS that you're ignoring everything logical to push an irrelevant want (i.e. parsers in this topic). The witch hunt comment indeed holds true with what you've stated so far, but I want to specifically point out that it's now also in regards to what you will do with official parsers. Outside of raids like Coil, I don't think there's really a necessity for a parser to exist. It's not like it's impossible to do typical DF instances outside of it, afterall.

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Logical? Defending the frail feelings of dps players in this game is logical? This is the double standard lol. Everything you've said SCREAMS "no, don't attack the dps for being terrible, but tanks and healers? To the wolves". That's absolutely ridiculous.

Also I'm not going to comment on your example of the two healer party because you're making the unrealistic assumption that the content wouldn't be tuned appropriately. Or the fact that it's a common occurrence to go into experts with i100+ dps that can't even break 200 to save their lives. Making runs as slow and painful as you say.

And I've said it several times already, I won't be kicking out the players in 110+ somehow hitting less than the Shield Oats paladin. But with a sanctioned parser I don't have to worry about getting banned and can comment or offer suggestions. If it's a situation where it's met with attitude then it would end up VERY MUCH THE SAME WAY PEOPLE BELITTLE/HARASS/ATTACK HEALERS AND TANKS IF THEY FUMBLE. Why is this such a difficult concept for you? The dps shouldn't be exempt from this "just because". That's a ridiculous reason and just reaffirms my point that there's a double standard.

But of course I guess it's fine. Let the dps autoattack and afk in dungeons, their feelings are too sensitive. Since that's the mindset 90% of the anti-parsers have in this thread. Afraid to see the reality if they're playing abysmally. Even the suggestion of the "DmC score screen" how many Ds and Cs should the dps see before they clue in? They should start tuning all the dungeons to be survivable with 4 dps doing less than 200 each. Since people with your mindset are part of the reason why most players dislike tanking and healing in this game, let's just remove them entirely, sounds like jolly good fun.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

Tanks have it harder , since u cant go afk or lazy mode (well in some encounters u can , nearly all the primals are 1 tank only now

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A fight being solo tanked means there's actually less margin for laziness or errors. Titan, Ramuh, Shiva are all likely wipes if the tank makes a mistake leading to their death.

The last 'lazy' fight for tanks was Titan Hard Mode or Labyrinth.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Simple solution to any "drama" issue; Have it display at the end of a successful dungeon/trail/raid and make it an option in the Character Configuration. If you select to see your numbers, it lists your numbers at the end. If you don't, it doesn't and nobody can see your numbers. Problem solved. Heck, just make the whole thing a personal venture by only having it show your personal numbers and let us share numbers if we want.

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I like this compromise. I always thought that DPS meters should be used for personal improvement only, because comparing e-peen just sets people up for drama.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Simple solution...

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Can't believe so many people missed this, myself included. On the first page, no less. This is, by and far, the most perfect answer that anyone could come up with. I said to myself I'd keep out of this thread after seeing certain replies practically scream 'can't hear you, lalala!', but after seeing the above post I had to find this post. The only reason I can see this as getting any flak is from those who want to see other players' results instead of their own.

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

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Uhh... yeah, there's a double standard. I've reaffirmed it myself in what I said and have never stated otherwise. What seems like defending bad players is actually a reason why things are how they are. You keep ignoring that though, I guess because I'm not literally saying that, word for word, like I just did now. I'm pointing out to you the reason the double standard exists (and will ALWAYS exist in the current setup of this game) and why merely adding a parser is not going to change a single meaningful thing. The tank/heal/dps exclusive setup will always put the spotlight on tanks and healers WAY more than DPS will ever see, as far as accountability goes. That is simply how we respond to the holy trinity setup (namely because its singling out a minimal number of players to fulfill an important role). Why basic design concept and the psychology behind how we treat it is difficult to grasp is beyond me... actually, it's not. It's expected on the internet lol.

Believe me, a parser is not going to suddenly change the majority of bad dps into decent ones. A handful, sure, but you'll still come across bad ones at nearly the same frequency. It's the nature of modern MMORPGs. They also won't suddenly be excellent DPS during your run as well. If they're not willing to put in the effort to begin with, which is honestly the more common case (i.e. not giving a damn to "learn" their rotations/priorities or they're just being lazy in their i130 gear), they won't care what you say even if you single them out. Calm down and clear your mind a bit, you might be able to read between the lines easier if you stop to think.

The witch hunt comment btw does not exclusively involve looking for people to kick. A witch hunt, in general, just means you're actively looking for someone to single out. I'm not claiming you're going to kick them or mistreat people, I'm just stating that you're going to be hunting for people doing something relatively harmless but not up to par, even if it may not be necessary to do so. There's no need to police your fellow players where it might not be needed. This is partly a dev philosophy as well, which is why we don't see heavy DPS checks in what we consider simple content.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

If they're not willing to put in the effort to begin with, which is honestly the more common case (i.e. not giving a damn to "learn" their rotations/priorities or they're just being lazy in their i130 gear), they won't care what you say even if you single them out.

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Yes. I don't think anyone's claiming that parsers will solve apathy. I only ever see anti-parse folks claiming to have heard that argument elsewhere (often from an ambiguously villainous elitist). But if you are making an active effort to improve then parsers are really handy. It's one thing to do your research; it's another thing entirely to apply that research. As it stands now, you just kinda have to hope that you're applying it the right way, and if you're not then to bad.

Also, as to the "clear your mind" bit: insulting someone's clarity usually does little to improve that clarity. You may want to make sure you are exemplifying your own advice before holding others to that standard.

As a DPS main myself, I resent the expectation that I should just shut up and carry underperforming DPS through content. Team content means that everyone should be pulling their own weight, not that one or two DPS should be doing 80% of the work.

And yes, if someone is in low-level gear but doing appropriate DPS for their gear, they are pulling their weight. Someone in i120 who is doing 200 DPS is very clearly not. Sure, you'll probably get through the dungeon just fine-- thanks to the other DPS, which is hardly fair to them.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

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You can say I'm "ignoring it" all you want. A parser will help to bring it to light, but your responses say you don't want it because of the toxic nature that could come about it...which I'm saying is no better than the same attitude the other two thirds of your holy trinity experience. This is also bringing it to an extreme as if literally everyone is going to go on vote kick sprees. Me having an expectation of dps to hit their own 1-2-3 in the right order isn't much more than my expectations of a tank to hold aggro or a healer to heal. I don't go into dungeons and expect everyone to pull 600 dps...that's asinine.

If they were held accountable for it some would start to perform better bringing up the average. I shouldn't have to run into a dungeon and pray at least one of the dps can do their job at least semi-competently, but sad reality is that we have to. Maybe if no job was safe from scrutiny people would be more apt to playing tanks and healers.

No one is saying that a parser is going to magically improve everyone overnight. Originally I was only for the sanctioned parser in the content where it matters (ex and coil). But after the discussion brought the concept into trivial content every single one of your responses has boiled down to "the double standard exists just because". I dunno about you but any point you have falls flat without a real reason backing it up. In this situation we should just have the sanctioned parser for everything to reduce this double standard.

I am fairly calm, I just wish you had a valid reason to your counter argument.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Yes. I don't think anyone's claiming that parsers will solve apathy. I only ever see anti-parse folks claiming to have heard that argument elsewhere (often from an ambiguously villainous elitist). But if you are making an active effort to improve then parsers are really handy. It's one thing to do your research; it's another thing entirely to apply that research. As it stands now, you just kinda have to hope that you're applying it the right way, and if you're not then to bad.

Also, as to the "clear your mind" bit: insulting someone's clarity usually does little to improve that clarity. You may want to make sure you are exemplifying your own advice before holding others to that standard.

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Yep, totally agree. I'd like to add though that parsers are still an acceptable practice privately (just not officially allowable). So I mean, going out to get the parser isn't exactly earth shattering for PC players, if their goal is to improve right now.

I mean, speaking from experience, I didn't bother with parsers in this game until several months ago. I knew my rotation and my numbers were pretty close to expected (got an extra ~40 DPS maybe after adjusting from parsing, so not exactly a big deal outside of Coil). Knowing your rotation/priorities, which is just guide related rather than crunching numbers, is usually enough to get the majority of your output going. Parsers typically serve to squeeze out that extra bit to perform as best as possible, instead of just "good". In the case of console players, seeking out a friend or something to help parse you isn't really difficult to do... it's no different than asking for help for any other thing you might do in this game. That's the way I see it, and I honestly think the way the devs/Yoshi-P see it. They seem to like to believe the player base doesn't need everything handed to them when the acceptable resources available aren't that much of a problem to pursue... I have my own pessimistic doubts on that glass half full perspective, but that's me lol.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

As a DPS main myself, I resent the expectation that I should just shut up and carry underperforming DPS through content. Team content means that everyone should be pulling their own weight, not that one or two DPS should be doing 80% of the work.

And yes, if someone is in low-level gear but doing appropriate DPS for their gear, they are pulling their weight. Someone in i120 who is doing 200 DPS is very clearly not. Sure, you'll probably get through the dungeon just fine-- thanks to the other DPS, which is hardly fair to them.

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Something to keep in mind is that, this person is likely new. If this were during the earlier days of ARR, their i120 would be... some i70 and a bunch of i55 probably. It's easier to get mad at new or ignorant DPS now, because we know what the potential is for said gear. The problem is that it's the exact same situation as that older one where the DPS would still be in i55+ gear, but people overlook that concern. Then again, there are also a lot of people that are just being lazy (this is probably the most common one we encounter). Unless you paid for clears, you're probably quite aware of how to play if you're in some Dreadwyrm or T9 stuff.

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

You can say I'm "ignoring it" all you want. A parser will help to bring it to light, but your responses say you don't want it because of the toxic nature that could come about it...which I'm saying is no better than the same attitude the other two thirds of your holy trinity experience. This is also bringing it to an extreme as if literally everyone is going to go on vote kick sprees. Me having an expectation of dps to hit their own 1-2-3 in the right order isn't much more than my expectations of a tank to hold aggro or a healer to heal. I don't go into dungeons and expect everyone to pull 600 dps...that's asinine.

If they were held accountable for it some would start to perform better bringing up the average. I shouldn't have to run into a dungeon and pray at least one of the dps can do their job at least semi-competently, but sad reality is that we have to. Maybe if no job was safe from scrutiny people would be more apt to playing tanks and healers.

No one is saying that a parser is going to magically improve everyone overnight. Originally I was only for the sanctioned parser in the content where it matters (ex and coil). But after the discussion brought the concept into trivial content every single one of your responses has boiled down to "the double standard exists just because". I dunno about you but any point you have falls flat without a real reason backing it up. In this situation we should just have the sanctioned parser for everything to reduce this double standard.

I am fairly calm, I just wish you had a valid reason to your counter argument.

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I guess the way the mind works (i.e. science) is not valid with you people. That's fine. I mean, that's exactly how people/businesses can sway others to react to something in a desired way eventually lol. Many people wouldn't have jobs if that weren't the case. Again though, it's not about the vote kick thing, it's about the outcomes for the players personal impressions. I'm also not saying you're going to expect big numbers or anything.

I'm saying you'll literally take the time, if you don't already, to actively check if people are doing what they should as far as their performance is concerned... irrelevant to whether or not things are acceptably fine. That's a psychological habit though, so that's not surprising. Not just you, of course, but a great number of people will be taking the time to do the same unfortunately. DPS should be held accountable, but the perspective that people are literally going to be watching out for a bad DPS simply to judge, since it's not as obvious to judge like a tank or healers role, is already a bad thing. The old school way of determining problematic DPS, like harsh DPS checks all over the place, serves the role a lot better IMO. That unfortunately destroys the games direction though.

And I do agree that if scrutiny was not a possibility, people would be more apt to playing the more focused roles of tanks and healers. It is though, as I said, because the spotlight is defaulted to them (their roles are much more important than DPS usually and they're outnumbered).

The whole "don't talk about it" policy works well enough for people who know what's up, but it is very schizophrenic and confusing if you aren't already familiar with everything involved. I mean, how many threads have there been on here and on reddit from people asking for clarification? As a new player (and especially as a first-time MMO player) it's a frustratingly confusing situation. "yes it's bannable but you won't get banned" sounds more like someone trolling you than a legit dev response. It's not like allowing parsers means allowing harassment, so I don't see the point. For me it's just a minor inconvenience at worst, but it's an inconvenience that serves no function whatsoever.

Imo the question isn't why we should allow parsers, but why we aren't. Since there are already 3rd party parsers, it's even simpler to implement than the op thinks. They don't have to add anything -pre-existing system of otherwise- they just need to stop disallowing 3rd party parsers. It's literally a negative amount of work, so I feel like the burden of justification is on the anti-parse side of things.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

The whole "don't talk about it" policy works well enough for people who know what's up, but it is very schizophrenic and confusing if you aren't already familiar with everything involved. I mean, how many threads have there been on here and on reddit from people asking for clarification? As a new player (and especially as a first-time MMO player) it's a frustratingly confusing situation. "yes it's bannable but you won't get banned" sounds more like someone trolling you than a legit dev response. It's not like allowing parsers means allowing harassment, so I don't see the point. For me it's just a minor inconvenience at worst, but it's an inconvenience that serves no function whatsoever.

Imo the question isn't why we should allow parsers, but why we aren't. Since there are already 3rd party parsers, it's even simpler to implement than the op thinks. They don't have to add anything -pre-existing system of otherwise- they just need to stop disallowing 3rd party parsers. It's literally a negative amount of work, so I feel like the burden of justification is on the anti-parse side of things.

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See this argument, I really like. It's rather solid in justifying a personal dilemma based on impression, something you can't really deny or fault someone for, and one that does not actually involve others. In other words, when making a professional decision based on satisfaction, this is among the hardest parts to react to (e.g. GMs justifying a ban when dealing with legit players). There are a couple things in reply to it that I can think of, and this is just based on how business/design decisions works, as well as the typical sort of replies you'd officially get.

First and foremost, it's their final call and reasoning. It doesn't have to make sense, regardless of it being something you like or don't like. Consumers may not be happy about a situation, like not officially allowing parsers, and while people may complain... it's not a big deal, and the devs know it (deep down, so do the consumers). I mean, there's a reason people still happily play (for the most part lol), and parsing is probably not one of them for practically everyone.

The other is that in the case of 3rd party parsers, identifications are harder to deal with if you're looking to ONLY include damage reading programs (or other harmless uses). The ToS is a contract, which is a legally bound document. Any halfway decent legal department will stress how important wording, detail, and terminology is there. By opening the doors on 3rd party programs, it becomes harder to pursue action against misuse. If we allow 3rd party parsers, then problems arise like the issue with parsers detecting Hunt mob spawns a while back. People will always find loop holes, it's how things are. The solution to just make it an actual function of the game is one thing, sure... but then we go back to the first point. They have the final say, regardless of us knowing or understanding their reasons.

I disagree with anyone who says meters will not make a notable difference in DPS. In my experience anytime you keep score publicly on ANYTHING. People perform better, most of us have some pride. I think the strenuous objection you see to them tells much of the story. As a healer I can tell with absolute certainty that there are people who are doing practically nothing. Those people deserve to their performance to be shown for everyone to see. It is beyond incompetence it is, you will carry me.

In a 4/8 man run on your way to the 1st boss if the tank can't hold aggro on trash or the boss, can't move mobs where he is supposed to, he gets called out or replaced. If healer lets people repeatedly die...same deal. You are all OK with that. If a DPS or two is performing apathetically it becomes a large burden on others and can cause wipes. Right now we have to guess to figure out who the problem is. It isn't fair and it isn't right. Apathetically bad players can comfortably hide right now as DPS. I am of the opinion just publically making meters available will fix a large part of this and I say the loud opposition to the possible inclusion of meters is evidence. If people didn't care about others knowing how bad they are, If there was zero opposition, you could make the argument they would have no impact....The size and magnitude of the voice against convinces me of their impact, they don't want be outed, they don't want to lose their free ride.

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Originally Posted by Magusrex

I disagree with anyone who says meters will not make a notable difference in DPS. In my experience anytime you keep score publicly on ANYTHING. People perform better, most of us have some pride. I think the strenuous objection you see to them tells much of the story. As a healer I can tell with absolute certainty that there are people who are doing practically nothing. Those people deserve to their performance to be shown for everyone to see. It is beyond incompetence it is, you will carry me.

In a 4/8 man run on your way to the 1st boss if the tank can't hold aggro on trash or the boss, can't move mobs where he is supposed to, he gets called out or replaced. If healer lets people repeatedly die...same deal. You are all OK with that. If a DPS or two is performing apathetically it becomes a large burden on others and can cause wipes. Right now we have to guess to figure out who the problem is. It isn't fair and it isn't right. Apathetically bad players can comfortably hide right now as DPS. I am of the opinion just publically making meters available will fix a large part of this and I say the loud opposition to the possible inclusion of meters is evidence. If people didn't care about others knowing how bad they are, If there was zero opposition, you could make the argument they would have no impact....The size and magnitude of the voice against convinces me of their impact, they don't want be outed, they don't want to lose their free ride.

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Funny enough, before I didn't really care about parsers but it's been topics/arguements like this that have made me pick a side. If parsers are truly a way to facilitate improvement among damagers and, twelve willing, actually bring some simblance of respect or even acceptance back to the role, then I'm all for it. You yourself say that people have pride, right? Well my philosophy is that in order to have pride/confidence in yourself, you must first have something worth having pride/confidence in. In other words, pride is a right you have to earn. You don't just get it by being. If other damagers are complacent in being treated as expendable, interchangable pawns at best and parasites at worst then that's fine, just don't drag the image of people that actually want to excel down with you. Those who can/will better themselves through parsers will and those that won't won't, simple as that. If they get kicked from parties due to poor performance they can form their or work to improve themselves.

Also, consider this, parses can not only be used as a sword against dps but a shield too. Say there's someone in your party who doesn't like your rotation and calls you out on it, but if your numbers are good enough you can use them validate your methods.
There's probably more but I don't like to get ranty. Plus that speech looked like the MMO equivilant of a villain's "Survival of the Fittest" speech.

I'm surprised this hasn't come up, but I think one reason why FF14, a Japanese game, doesn't really support parsers and such, is because it is expected that people will do their very best when they sign up for Duty Finder in JPN. It is shameful to show up to a trial/raid/dungeon with complete strangers, and perform poorly or be a detriment to the group. As many have noted, it is the idea that every single player needs to take responsibility for their own performance and not let down the group. None of this "I play how I want, even if I'm in i130 doing 200dps" -- rather, it is usually (not always, of course) "I play to the best of my ability so as not to be a hindrance to others in my group and ashamed of my own performance".

I'm not saying that parses or not are a cultural difference -- but I am pointing out that in many respects Japanese players, where this game is developed, will generally not need parsers to tell them they are doing badly. They know it, they take care of it, and they do all of this before entering into a public Duty Finder party so as not to disgrace themselves and let others down. NA, on the other hand, I've not seen quite this level of personal responsibility.

*Note - I know the major world first JPN groups parse - as is needed when doing cutting edge progression w/ no echo or overgearing*
*I'm Asian, myself, and yes -- the whole group before individual is very much a part of the culture ^^*

Personally, now that I'm starting to play DPS more (mainly a healer), I wouldn't mind an end-of-encounter window that shows what the DPS was for just the DPS in the group. Doesn't need to show the class/job, or the names, just the scores and which one's mine.

Maybe not even scores, just a pop up saying where I stood compared to the other 3-4 dps in my party. Then I can just strive not to be in 4th/5th place. (or maybe that plus just my own dps score)

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

The requirements, DPS checks, mechanics in other games are different. Raiding in XIV is not the same as raiding in Hello Kitty Island online. Your raiding/parsing experience in this game is only applicable to this conversation.

Like I said to you and the many naysayers. Not pushing content until it's nerfed is not a bad thing. But you're obviously lacking a perspective when coming into this conversation when you haven't experienced the requirement to meet a strict DPS check.

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No it really isn't. That you think that my experience in this game is the only way to have a valid opinion on parsers is ridiculous and absurd.

I don't lack the perspective. You simply refuse to accept that my experience is in other mmos, because you can't understand that parsers are not limited to just xiv.

Your entire premise to refuse someone's stance in this way is horribly flawed and just makes you look like a fool.

Oh 3.0, you can't come any faster.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

No it really isn't. That you think that my experience in this game is the only way to have a valid opinion on parsers is ridiculous and absurd.

I don't lack the perspective. You simply refuse to accept that my experience is in other mmos, because you can't understand that parsers are not limited to just xiv.

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From a neutral standpoint.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

Your raiding/parsing experience in this game is only applicable to this conversation.

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Basically your experience with parsers in millions of other MMO's isn't very much relevant to the topic at hand - which is parsers specifically for FFXIV. You can have an opinion on parsers in general, and nobody will deny you that, but you are talking about a parser in this specific game, which may be quite different, so at least try to tie it in with your experience with parsers in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by juniglee

From a neutral standpoint.



Basically your experience with parsers in millions of other MMO's isn't very much relevant to the topic at hand - which is parsers specifically for FFXIV. You can have an opinion on parsers in general, and nobody will deny you that, but you are talking about a parser in this specific game, which may be quite different, so at least try to tie it in with your experience with parsers in FFXIV.

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Yes it actually is. This topic isn't about end-game raiding in FCoB pre-echo. It isn't about how much dps and what strategies to use in T13 when it was released. It's about adding an in-game parser. Any experience with end-game progression raiding and the use and significance as well as the consequences of parsers qualifies someone to have a relevant and meaningful opinion on this subject.

Despite two posts pointing out another rather brilliant solution to the parser quandary on the first page there seems to be no discussion on it's merits. Instead we STILL have people going back and forth about one not unlike the Frontlines parser, and the damage it may or may not do. What is so important about having the Frontlines parser that you'd ignore the much better option given by Nalien? Is it not enough to just see your own numbers or ask politely how everyone else fared? The worst that could happen is they say, "No." No harm, no foul unless you decide to make it that way.

Which brings us to harassment. It's real, it everywhere and it's been here since 1.0. The trials of just getting Cutters Cry and Aurum Vale runs back then is little different from those of people trying to get Coil runs or even dungeons. People kicking you out for not having iL110~ for Turn 5, getting yelled at for wearing out-of-role accessories in dungeons, being kicked for sticking up for new players in Story dungeons (yes, this has happened before in a Praetorium run I was in). The harassment is here and it's not going away, ToS be damned. A Frontlines parser would only add fuel to an already existing fire.

I don't normally back parsers because of the potential for harassment, but Nalien's parser idea is one I feel I can endorse without reservation.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

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Seeing damage dealt at the end of a successful dungeon run is incredibly black and white (inflation from add phases for example), and typically does not help in the case of dps not being responsible with their role (dealing damage and slacking in it)

This is remind me of my WoW time, every week I'm checking world of log to make the comparison between my main DPS and the best DPS from that web. Checking best DPS player build, study their rotation and best gear.
Other than Tanking I used to play as a DPS on my guilds, where the time that WindWalker Monk still at the top of the chart, this make me miss my Pandaren Monk. I'm not really good DPS at WoW my highest rank in my guild are 3rd place :p

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Yes it actually is. This topic isn't about end-game raiding in FCoB pre-echo. It isn't about how much dps and what strategies to use in T13 when it was released. It's about adding an in-game parser. Any experience with end-game progression raiding and the use and significance as well as the consequences of parsers qualifies someone to have a relevant and meaningful opinion on this subject.

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To an extent, yes your past experience with parsers holds merit. However we are talking about the FF community and the FF encounters and the way players in FF perceive and use parsers.

Take this for an example, gearscore in WoW was a joke, jesus christ people held that in such high regard and they basically asked for absolutely stupid numbers to get into groups.
Now take FF, iLvl is their equivalent. While people still use ilvl to filter out people for groups, it is no where NEAR as absurd and abused as gearscore was back in the day.

So while they two things do have similarities and can be somewhat compared the way they are used, and the way the game uses them are different. You're talking about football and basketball. Both are played with a ball but used differently.

So now we go onto FF end game, I have been there, I know the end game community on my server, I know the community who uses parsers, I can tell you first hand how they use those parsers, and they don't scream for 700+ DPS or kick. This opinion is a little more valid than 'oh I used them back in this other game with this other community'.

Like I said, I'm not saying your opinion is invalid, but you need to bring a little more to the debate than 'A long long time ago in a game far far away'.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

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This. I've been telling it so many times; especially in raid type content, people need to be wary that their performance affects 7 other people - either positively or negatively. You'd think people would respect each other enough to do their very best, but nope, even in the end-game content the individualistic and selfish 'mememe' attitude often carries on. What this only shows is a lack of respect towards others; if I join a party, I do my best to be as good an asset to the party as I can. Most of the time, people are more centered in their own sense of 'fun', even if it means slapping 200dps in full 130 gear and forcing more load on the others. That's nothing more than pure laziness and disrespect.

People really need to start respecting each other more.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

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That is great that the players you play with in end game don't do that. But we are talking about the xiv community as a whole, and how it could affect everyone . Not just the players already using 3rd party parsers and what they want. I do not have to bring anything other than my experiences with parsers and how I feel they should be implemented if made in-game.

All you are trying to do is brush a counter - view aside with a specific requirement that has no significance on the discussion at hand.

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Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

Character limit sucks

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Yeah, won't happen. People are stupid.

Which is why we suggest the tools to find the problem, correct it if we can, and kick/deal with it if we can't. We're talking about effecting the group as a whole, but of course everyone gets this "me" thing going on that everyone is going to turn into blood sucking vampire zombie assholes and target them the minute this gets implemented.

Or we can deal with trolls and ignorance forever. Which will more than likely be the case.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

All you are trying to do is brush a counter - view aside with a specific requirement that has no significance on the discussion at hand.

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I am dismissing your argument for one reason and one reason alone. You are making assumptions based on a different game, and a different community. Just like everyone else within this thread is.
I also gave you a specific example of how a method of measuring someones level of experience was used in one game, but is different in this game. I'm not simply brushing you off, I am giving you examples to prove why your argument falls flat. Meanwhile you've said nothing more than, 'but this is what used to happen'. I'm all for debate if you've got something more relevant to the conversation.

I understand that there will more than likely be a very small minority who abuse the parsing data and ask for absurd numbers for groups, but those people are the ones you avoid in PF anyway because they also ask for ilvl 130 for titan ex and scream '1 mistake = kick'. Not everyone is perfect, but are we to keep a useful and informative tool away from the rest of the playerbase because a small amount of players take it too far?

I am basing my opinion on the experiences I have had in THIS game, with THIS community.

By your logic I should stay away from seafood as this one time I ate some salmon and my insides burned for a week, therefore all salmon is bad and will make me relive those horrific days of toilet websurfing and ring sting.

The past is the past, you can learn from it, but it doesn't mean everything plays out exactly the same. Different time, different community different game. Leave your bias at the door and focus on how that information is being used right now, not how you think it might be used because this one time someone said you suck back in 2001.

No I'm basing it off my experience which includes this community. A community that includes more than just end game raiders who would use an in game parser.

You haven't given me any valid argument why my opinion holds less weight and you and I have never even discussed with each other yet about parser because for the last several pages I've been telling you and another how your deflecting is flawed.

If you actually want to finally discuss the impact of parsers and how it should be implemented rather than brush things aside, I'd be happy to post and discuss with you after work.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

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This is a matter of perspective. I've seen people require ilvl for farms that's higher than what drops within that instance. I've seen as high as ilvl 120 requirement for T9, and a good amount of ilvl 130 for T13 (which is impossible for my gear setup, mind you).

http://i.imgur.com/RjJUt.jpg

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

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Maybe I am reading this wrong here, but are you basing it off of the community that actually uses parsers, that you've played with (mainly in end game as that is where parsers are used the most)? Or simply off the community and how you THINK they will use parsers based on how other games communities used them. That's where I find your argument to fall short.


If you have some actual experience in FF where you've found yourself or others kicked from groups due to someone parsing saying your DPS was too low, and this happens often. Then we have something to go on here as you've clearly experienced a negative side to it. However from what I've read here, and again if I have mis-read it then correct me, but you are saying you've experienced the end game in other games or parsing in other games, and that's good enough to throw into a discussion here. in which case I would argue that's more of a discussion for the psychology/philosophy forums as to why humans act like they do, and I guess we will just never ever see eye to eye on that one because as I said, I'm taking my observations on parsing, from the people who use parsers in THIS game, in THIS community.

As I've said, from my experience the people who go overboard with the parsers are in a very small minority, especially those in PF groups. It just doesn't happen much. Those are the same people who have unrealistic ilvl requirements and who are generally players you tend to avoid in any case. One or two bad eggs don't represent the community as a whole.

As for the impact of parsers, this is what I am discussing now as I am giving you examples of how it is being used and how it is effecting the community. With regards to the implementation, there are a million and one ways for this and I get that this is probably the hardest thing to keep everyone happy. Is it a personal parser? Is it group wide? Is it PF only and disabled in DF? is it only available in end game? Should there be a top 10 leaderboard for each class per encounter so people have a reference point of what they should be parsing? Etc etc.

Personally I think they should just lift the so called 'ban' on the current parsers and let them be used and talked about freely. Literally minimal effort on SE's part. The only downside to this is PS3/4 users get shunned.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

This is a matter of perspective. I've seen people require ilvl for farms that's higher than what drops within that instance. I've seen as high as ilvl 120 requirement for T9, and a good amount of ilvl 130 for T13 (which is impossible for my gear setup, mind you).

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See above.

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Originally Posted by FrejyaAthenes

Also, consider this, parses can not only be used as a sword against dps but a shield too. Say there's someone in your party who doesn't like your rotation and calls you out on it, but if your numbers are good enough you can use them validate your methods.
There's probably more but I don't like to get ranty. Plus that speech looked like the MMO equivilant of a villain's "Survival of the Fittest" speech.

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That would be awesome, all I care about is that people make an effort to carry themselves, they don't have to do it my or your way, as long as they try, I don't care how they get results, If they are getting them differently than I am , I get to learn something too win and win.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

As I've said, from my experience the people who go overboard with the parsers are in a very small minority, especially those in PF groups. It just doesn't happen much. Those are the same people who have unrealistic ilvl requirements and who are generally players you tend to avoid in any case. One or two bad eggs don't represent the community as a whole.

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This point gets glazed over and ignored more often than it should.