Focus Classes amongst their respective Jobs

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

maybe changing alot of he skills will be enough to fix the fact that not all classes are better at solo as they should be, well see. for example if im farming 10 lvl 50 raptors at a time on war, i blood bath steel cyclone and thats an instant cure for over 3k hp which is something i cant do on mrd.

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The problem is really how people play jobs. Classes can for the most part take more of a beating solo than jobs and as such offer an increased survivability..... of sorts.

However jobs gain survivability in the form of an ability to kill things before they become a threat to your survival and that often wins. If farming for example a WAR can farm raptors like someone above said killing 5 or 6 at a time at a speed faster than a MRD can accomplish, which in turn increases output of farmed items and requires little to no down time to stop and rest mp, hp etc. Thus jobs often win by sheer efficiency. (more kills/items per hour)

It's a strategy common in XIV parties as well. Garuda and Ifrit primal battles both a lot safer the faster you can beat them. The quicker you can kill Ifrit the lower the chances of someone getting caught on cracks, plumes etc. The more damage you can do to Garuda before Ariel Blast the more chance you can skip phase 2 and often go on to kill her before the sisters become a threat. (phase 2 being fairly widely regarded as the most difficult of them all)

It's simply a good offence is often the dest defence. And in that respect it's something that classes currently can't compete with.

We can sugar coat it all we want, Classes limit Jobs. We can argue all we want about Classes > Jobs in solo play (which isn't the case in 1) but really when you can switch jobs on a whim, why would anyone play Pugilist over Monk when they can just switch to WHM and buff themselves then switch to Monk and deal more damage.

The point I've made in the past is there's no way we can have a 2 Job from 1 Class system. Such as Gladiator -> Paladin Gladiator -> Dark Knight. Gladiator as a Class has abilities to help Paladin tank and is limited to Sword and Shield because of the Armory system. No one is going to want to play Dark Knight with a Sword and Shield and use Shield Bash and Sword combos. Sure 2.0 is going to change abilities and we have to wait and see these changes, but they haven't said they're going to change the current system of 15 abilities (which may be increased and will increase with level cap(s)) and 5 from your 2 sub-jobs.

With the Class and Armory system we're looking at a 1 Class to 1 Job system. The only one I can think of that works is Archer -> Bard Archer -> Ranger, but again with the limited armory system that would be 3 Bow types. But at least Ranger would have abilities that make it the classic Archer abilities which people want. (They also want Crossbows and Guns)

There's only 2 reasons we will use Classes in 2.0: 1) to unlock a Job 2) the Class only content they plan to implement. But if rewards are Class only, then I would be willing to bet that people would shun this content because they would never wear the gear and it would bog down their inventory. It'd be mostly vanity pieces.

If Classes got their abilities from the Job I could see how that system could work and you could have multiple jobs tied to 1 Class, but again who would want to play the Class? Classes restrict Jobs, Armory System restricts both. But with the current set up I just can't see a way to have multiple jobs tied to many of the classes and even if they are, they won't be that much different from the other job as the abilities are all shared. I didn't get to play FFXI for very long, but I believe they got way the Job system works right.

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

We can sugar coat it all we want, Classes limit Jobs. We can argue all we want about Classes > Jobs in solo play (which isn't the case in 1) but really when you can switch jobs on a whim, why would anyone play Pugilist over Monk when they can just switch to WHM and buff themselves then switch to Monk and deal more damage.

The point I've made in the past is there's no way we can have a 2 Job from 1 Class system. Such as Gladiator -> Paladin Gladiator -> Dark Knight. Gladiator as a Class has abilities to help Paladin tank and is limited to Sword and Shield because of the Armory system. No one is going to want to play Dark Knight with a Sword and Shield and use Shield Bash and Sword combos. Sure 2.0 is going to change abilities and we have to wait and see these changes, but they haven't said they're going to change the current system of 15 abilities (which may be increased and will increase with level cap(s)) and 5 from your 2 sub-jobs.

With the Class and Armory system we're looking at a 1 Class to 1 Job system. The only one I can think of that works is Archer -> Bard Archer -> Ranger, but again with the limited armory system that would be 3 Bow types. But at least Ranger would have abilities that make it the classic Archer abilities which people want. (They also want Crossbows and Guns)

There's only 2 reasons we will use Classes in 2.0: 1) to unlock a Job 2) the Class only content they plan to implement. But if rewards are Class only, then I would be willing to bet that people would shun this content because they would never wear the gear and it would bog down their inventory. It'd be mostly vanity pieces.

If Classes got their abilities from the Job I could see how that system could work and you could have multiple jobs tied to 1 Class, but again who would want to play the Class? Classes restrict Jobs, Armory System restricts both. But with the current set up I just can't see a way to have multiple jobs tied to many of the classes and even if they are, they won't be that much different from the other job as the abilities are all shared. I didn't get to play FFXI for very long, but I believe they got way the Job system works right.

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I'm not confirming anything but since we DID see new abilities in the alpha screenshots (Water being the prime example for Conjurer/WHM), there seems to be changes towards the system as a whole.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

I'm not confirming anything but since we DID see new abilities in the alpha screenshots (Water being the prime example for Conjurer/WHM), there seems to be changes towards the system as a whole.

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Well that is good, I haven't seen the screenshots myself yet but I'll look for some now. I guess that could be one way to 'fix' the system, toss a whole bunch of abilities at it and limit people to how many they can equip and raise the limit as caps are raised. That could help stem multiple Jobs from one Class but again why would anyone want to play a Class over a Job. Class and Armory systems are still going to be a problem. But hey, more abilities are nice.

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

Well that is good, I haven't seen the screenshots myself yet but I'll look for some now. I guess that could be one way to 'fix' the system, toss a whole bunch of abilities at it and limit people to how many they can equip and raise the limit as caps are raised. That could help stem multiple Jobs from one Class but again why would anyone want to play a Class over a Job. Class and Armory systems are still going to be a problem. But hey, more abilities are nice.

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They really need to add class-only abilities that can be as versatile as possible - weaponskills for DoM classes that actually use TP with benefits (Radiance from vanilla Conjurer; it was a good ability to put on DoW as well because of the MP-regain attribute), abilities on DoW that can manipulate roles beyond their job specialisation (for example, having Lancer induce more effects rather than just stun on the enemy. Lancet (absorb MP and HP while dealing damage, long ranged [think Kimahri]) or Twisting Vice (reduce TP of enemy) could be really good class abilities to define their placement in the game). Even an opposite of Blissful Mind for classes, you sacrifice a portion of your MP to regain HP (probably for one of the melee classes). Just some ideas, but the potential to fit both is actually very large - they just need to streamline each system, as the class and job system are very much independent of one another in terms of usage.

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

Well that is good, I haven't seen the screenshots myself yet but I'll look for some now. I guess that could be one way to 'fix' the system, toss a whole bunch of abilities at it and limit people to how many they can equip and raise the limit as caps are raised. That could help stem multiple Jobs from one Class but again why would anyone want to play a Class over a Job. Class and Armory systems are still going to be a problem. But hey, more abilities are nice.

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Even if you treat the classes as jobs, there is still a niche for (actual) jobs as advanced jobs. You have a general role, weapon-type, with some niche involved, and then you have a job that takes a certain part of that role to an extreme.
The problem that exists right now almost seems as if the English class names are coincidentally too fitting, as opposed to the "Swordsman, Spearman, Fistfighter, Bowman, Axeman" directly translated class names. The classes have some motif already set for them, which is both a help (grants identity) and a hindrance (feels like it's already directing itself as a job).

Marauder, for instance, feels like a marauder, hits hard with a lot of health and brutality-centered oppression-as-defense tactics. This would certainly be one of the ways--and a vary obvious one at that--an Axeman could go in. It just maybe shouldn't be the only one.

Additionally, as another example from the Japanese side, why Swordsman is somehow locked to a sword-and-shield style is anyone's guess. Why shouldn't it also include single-sword and two-handed sword style? There are balancing composition issues, sure, but on the face of it Samurai, Dark Knights, and even Red Mages are at least in large part Swordsmen.

...but now that I'm thinking about that again, this may all be an argument for simply a much more intricate idea of "Weapon Level" (with main types, subtypes, and maybe some shared xp cross-overs), and just jobs. The classes would just be the name given to you when you're able to use all the weapon-skills you've learned thus far (including those learned from but not locked to jobs), while not in a job.

In that case 'jobs' would probably be more abundant, with names based on composition of skill types, while the number of true jobs (Warrior, Black Mage...) remains the same and all have quests attached, hopefully harder than before imo, and with leveling partly of their own.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

They really need to add class-only abilities that can be as versatile as possible - weaponskills for DoM classes that actually use TP with benefits (Radiance from vanilla Conjurer; it was a good ability to put on DoW as well because of the MP-regain attribute), abilities on DoW that can manipulate roles beyond their job specialisation (for example, having Lancer induce more effects rather than just stun on the enemy. Lancet (absorb MP and HP while dealing damage, long ranged [think Kimahri]) or Twisting Vice (reduce TP of enemy) could be really good class abilities to define their placement in the game). Even an opposite of Blissful Mind for classes, you sacrifice a portion of your MP to regain HP (probably for one of the melee classes). Just some ideas, but the potential to fit both is actually very large - they just need to streamline each system, as the class and job system are very much independent of one another in terms of usage.

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Didn't we basically have both Lancet and Twisting Vice through vanilla Life Surge and Moonrise before? I miss them, even if they weren't that great. I wish more could be done just based on the different damage types and weapon ranges too. The mechanics to give more unique advantages to classes can be the most obvious of things while still being complexly useful. But these would probably take the ability to remember past attacks to some extent, and to have accurate ranging (not something that would happen in a system with melee attacks going off from up to 12 malms away).

Everything you've said about streamlining and versatility seems spot on. I hope some of that gets into ARR.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

mrd has no steel cycle which will make it worse all the time.

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You are right that a Warrior has access to Steel Cyclone. You are wrong that it makes a Warrior better than a Marauder all of the time.

To Dzian,

Rebuttal in red text:

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Originally Posted by Dzian

because classes are worthless in solo. Incorrect.


a warrior solo's better than a marauder, even after the steel cyclone changes. What are we soloing? What is criteria for "better" in this case? I personally prefer to dispatch enemies efficiently with little to no downtime in between fights on leves in order to get the maximum bonus. Classes have always been better in this regard when soloing leves.
a cnj solo's better than a whm, (regen your self and just nuke like crazy) You said CNJ here. Regen is nice. Not having to wait for Stone or Aero combo cooldowns is better for efficienct guildleve soloing.
a brd solo's better than an arc. (people disagree here but while invigorate keen flurry blood for blood etc may boost your spike damage they cannot keep up with the tp skill spam offered by paeon of war over time. Your only "over time" argument. Still doesn't fit with your above claim that "...classes are worthless solo"
pld solos better than gla,Absolutely incorrect. theres very little in the way of skills you can set that will make up for losing sw damage and dv's mitigation. even more so if you blood for blood your sw gives you a chunk of hp backInvigorate is great for these instances. PLD can't Invigorate nor can it Second Wind, lessening downtime between fights without having to wait for MP.
a blm can solo better than a thm convert is really nice and sleepga is a life saver for aggro,I'm not prone to personal attacks but this claim is incredibly ignorant and really makes me wonder if you've ever played a class solo. BLM can't Stoneskin. BLM can't Protect. BLM can't use Rampart. BLM is a glass cannon.

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I don't understand in which contexts you are referring to when jobs are outperforming classes solo. The only instance where your examples ring true would be in a one v one fight versus an underleveled monster spanning a time from the beginning of one fight to the end of the same fight.

Your examples prove false in...

Efficient guildleve completion
Soloing tougher mobs outside of your level range
Minimizing downtime between congruently leveled farming targets.

I suggest you experiment with classes a little more.

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Originally Posted by Alaltus

Forgive me i ment to say that Classes should be able to solo and lowman party more on their own merits and Jobs should be able to perform their roles in a Party more on their own merits. I also agree that they could just simply reduce the level of chameleon specifically when it comes to that issue though i wonder how much it would effect party balance at the lower levels. Atleast in a balanced game where you could take hate from the tank in dungeon etc etc being able to lower hate at lower levels would effect damage output and other things. So they may have to make changes to other things as well in doing that.

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I see where you're going in that case. I still see my character as one person, not several different people contained inside of one person. I think that is primarily where we differ.

I understand not being able to use certain abilities that my character already knows when he's performing a role in a group. I don't understand why he's unable to call on his well rounded experiences as an adventurer when he's on his own.

I personally feel that the system has overly adapted to fit jobs into it not the other way around so that is why I take the stance that I do. I've already begrudgingly accepted the changes already made. To further upset that balance would dishearten me even further. If anything I think they should further delineate the two systems to make them more effective in their given contexts. BLM needs some attention on the party play side and GLA needs a little more attention on the solo play side of things.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

I'm not confirming anything but since we DID see new abilities in the alpha screenshots (Water being the prime example for Conjurer/WHM), there seems to be changes towards the system as a whole.

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Yeah i'm going to be watching the changes with much interest.

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

Well that is good, I haven't seen the screenshots myself yet but I'll look for some now. I guess that could be one way to 'fix' the system, toss a whole bunch of abilities at it and limit people to how many they can equip and raise the limit as caps are raised. That could help stem multiple Jobs from one Class but again why would anyone want to play a Class over a Job. Class and Armory systems are still going to be a problem. But hey, more abilities are nice.

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I accept some of your points as for giving Classes purpose within the whole system. One way i can think of is lowman instance content say a party of 4 is the restriction and while Jobs wouldnt be prohibited they would be at a disadvantage if that party had to split up alot to move forward. Atleast they would be if Classes and Jobs are balanced properly and they carry out the no switching Jobs/Classes in instance content they've been talking about anyway. Say the rewards are Class gear and some jewelry that can be equiped by both Class and Jobs. It would really depend on how good that jewelry was but it might motivate players to do the content and in turn motivate them to invest in their Class.

As for Classes and PVP i can imagine Classes fairing well but i'm sure that if jobs were/are permitted that players would find ways to make use of atleast some of the jobs in there.

Sure Classes may/get useful abilities for PVP (using the current system and speculating) like Sentinel and Rampart, Stoneskin and Cure which sounds good for the 1on1 PvP Coliseum they talked about but I'd see Conjurer as being overpowered there, Aerora has a secondary effect of Dispel so they can remove your buffs and Repose to put you asleep while they recover MP. In the other PvP mode its more team and objective oriented. You're fighting another team while trying to capture a base (I think that is what was said) so we have to assume we're in parties and I'd assume jobs would be better. Monk with Fist of Wind for movement speed to get there fast. White Mage for Regen and double Raise. Bard for Swift Song, Minuet, and Ballad. Black Mage for Sleepga (we'll see how this works), Lancer gets a little survivability in its Jumps which I'd assume make them untargetable. Warrior Steel Cyclone destroying everyone. Now for Paladin I can only speculate that Provoke and Flash cause targets to lock onto you (course Warrior can do the same and then get Steel Cyclone stun).

Just because we can make up rules for dungeons and have say Class only dungeons and instances, that doesn't mean we should. That's Class only gear that people would have to carry to even attempt those Raids. Sure it works for low man because they aren't able to open up their Job yet, but that's just a hindrance and not a reward when they could EASILY just be given Black Mage from the start and skip the Thaumaturge nonesense.