Will DRG and PLD still be next to useless in 2.0?

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Originally Posted by Tabula

Wait if BLM = Easy mode wouldn't that insinuate that they make things easier because they're better?

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There is a different between foolproof and "best way if you know what you do"

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Originally Posted by Mijin

I was being hypothetical, I wasn't suggesting we should exchange evidence. I personally don't save parse logs I would assume you don't either and the only videos I have are of random things. I was just saying that you seem like the type of person who even if I had undeniable evidence to show you, you still wouldn't change your mind.

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Because we would have more than enough evidence to counter you.

I'm not the best Dragoon out there but I've consistently outparsed Monks, especially in PuGs. It's how I've figured out that hate mechanics on Nael Van Darnus is based off of who is first and second on the hate list. (If your Melee team is first and second on hate list, Nael will never teleport to the mages. If your Black Mage is second on the hate list on the stairs, Darnus will STILL Auto-kill your members, etc.)

The fact that it's variable enough for it even to be an argument should tell you they are not nearly as bad off as your post suggests. Morso given the numbers of people disagreeing with you.

It's time to reevaluate your position.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

I was being hypothetical, I wasn't suggesting we should exchange evidence. I personally don't save parse logs I would assume you don't either and the only videos I have are of random things. I was just saying that you seem like the type of person who even if I had undeniable evidence to show you, you still wouldn't change your mind.

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My point is that you have no proof.... Generally when someone tries to make a point, they have some kind of evidence to back it up... just saying

Here, I will go first... The top 3 are Drg Do you have any parses of Ifrit extreme with monks?

http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/m...box/ifrit5.jpg

Alright, some of you posting here that actually seem reputable have actually managed to change my opinion. I guess I was being a little overly pessimistic. I'm still not convinced DRG is the "best" but the posts by Meatdawg and Hyrist mainly have caused me to change my opinion that they can be on par. You win.

Did Ifrit with a PUG alongside my DRG friend and a MNK as the leader. One idiot blm claimed a WHM solo healing would be impossible with melee DD. It was a PLD as the tank too.

Killed that sumbitch in about 5 minutes and surprise surprise guess who was the only person to die at all.

Hate was never an issue and hell, as WHM I even got to nuke a hell of a lot without anyone getting anywhere near dangerous HP.

If your group puts in even the tiniest bit of effort, gets practice in and gets to play the classes they truly enjoy playing you see a big difference in performance. We did moogles with melee perfectly fine when it was supposedly impossible with melee DD (this was before jobs) or to combo them (it's not if your DD can manage to not spam their stuff). Our LS isn't even hardcore.

I believe all the jobs are in a good position now when you have people that are competent.

It's not a matter about who's winning, man. It's a matter about having a more open mind.

Your post personifies a limited mentality in the game that needs to stop, because it's in conflict with the actual game mechanics, if not necessarily your personal experiences.

Furthermore we need to understand that even having what we have, it's still not the whole picture. SE could possibly screw the pooch on job balance or make it even better depending on how things change for 2.0. But if they listen to opinion over evidence they may overcompensate which may make things unbalanced for a very long time.

The thing that has me frozen in speculation mode is Battle Reigime and whether or not it rewards a balanced party set up or not. Things can go really south if people find a way to exploit it so that it benefits class stacking.

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Originally Posted by TimonLoon

You're right Block does proc more than parry but you're missing the point of that statement. WAR can almost completely nullify a 1500-2000 damage hit on command if they time their Foresight/Feather Foot usage right (or even with a random parry proc). This is just not possible with PLD. Over the long run it's entirely possible that the PLD takes less damage than the WAR but the WAR is evading the hits that count (the ones that can down you).
First of all, you do know that when you parry on foresight you only take 1 damage. However if you have a random parry proc you take more damage than a random block proc. Second of all, PLD can just as easily nullify a 1500-2k damage hit on command with aegis boon since it causes you to take 0 damage and also heal for 703.

That is completely dependent on the group. Unfortunately your experience/luck with getting decent people together doesn't apply to everyone that plays the game.

Again you are ignoring the big point. Blocks don't proc on WS. Having the mob in front of you w/ Divine Veil means nothing to 100-Tonze/10-Tonze/<insert WS here>. Parries do proc on WS and can practically be done on command with Foresight. Honestly I don't even see your point here with the whole positioning comment and facing the mob... If the mob isn't in front of you as a PLD or WAR you're not doing your job so that doesn't apply.
Block does proc on WS though. Have you never blocked against 100-tonze/10-tonze swing? Anything that a Warrior can parry and evade, a PLD can block. Not only that, PLD can also heal when they use Aegis boon, letting them not only completely nullify it, but heal at the same time. Divine veil also works on those skills as well.

You're right. If a PLD can't tank with 3.8k HP then they are doing something wrong. But how did that PLD get to 3.8k+ from the norm. See? The norm doesn't apply to you because you have a decent group. The norm is a full AF PLD with some decent accessories. That's about 3400-3500 after full party buff. Any simple ass WAR is standing around with 4k after that buff. It makes a big difference.
If War is easier for starters to tank in, good for them. Though if you can't get cobalt gear and single meld it, that's quite worrying.

Ahh... I assumed it wouldn't work since it was magic damage. FFXI mentality. I'll definitely start using that now.
Spirits Within isn't magic damage. The skill states "Delivers a melee attack at close range."

Definitely agree with you here. I did my first Hamlet run on WAR and switched to PLD right after. Far better experience... I haven't done Ifrit Extreme and I've only gotten Garuda down to 10% with PUGs. I need to find a group to down shit with. -_-;

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Towards the MNK vs. DRG. DRG tends to do the same damage in ifrit (extreme) due to the fact that their aoe damage to the nails is far superior. However towards damage on ifrit itself, monk is higher. This is why their damage usually equal about the same. The damage drg makes on the nails balances out the dmg mnk does on ifrit. This is why imo having both in the fight made it a lot easier.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

It's not a matter about who's winning, man. It's a matter about having a more open mind.

Your post personifies a limited mentality in the game that needs to stop, because it's in conflict with the actual game mechanics, if not necessarily your personal experiences.

Furthermore we need to understand that even having what we have, it's still not the whole picture. SE could possibly screw the pooch on job balance or make it even better depending on how things change for 2.0. But if they listen to opinion over evidence they may overcompensate which may make things unbalanced for a very long time.

The thing that has me frozen in speculation mode is Battle Reigime and whether or not it rewards a balanced party set up or not. Things can go really south if people find a way to exploit it so that it benefits class stacking.

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This.

When it comes to mnk and drg I think it is a situational and skill level issue in comparison. They are both power houses done right.

Have you played PLD recently Timon? They drastically changed block mechanics in one of the lettered 1.22 patches I think and it's actually good now. It works on everything Parry does and now Divine veil forces (normal) blocks, you can see a huge difference in damage taken w/ a PLD tank now.

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Originally Posted by Madrox

This.

When it comes to mnk and drg I think it is a situational and skill level issue in comparison. They are both power houses done right.

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It's not a matter about who's winning, man. It's a matter about having a more open mind.

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Yeah that's not what I meant. I'm not opposed to be proven wrong, It's just that most people don't have capacity to convince me of it, so I'm saying you won me over. I think the reason is I may have had some outdated opinions because I took a month off to play d3 when it came out and have been doing nothing but crafting since I got back.

I'm actually glad that they aren't as bad off as I perceived, I'm actually feeling slightly optimistic about playing them now.