Quote:
Originally Posted by RabendaShin
This is honestly a cherry on top all of my issues with DT story. The fact, that people in Tural would have been better off, if we never get there. My WoL actually feels guilty about what happened.
-
07-15-2024, 11:02 PMRegis_Paran
-
07-15-2024, 11:08 PMThorneDynastyWe also let that mage child in ShB role quests get mauled by a bear, watching at it arms crossed with a look of "kid's gotta learn". And there was that time we threw grenades at the Miqo'te who wanted to train up to become nunh or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rannie
Mentor WoL is always a blast, too bad there's none of that happening in the DT MSQ. -
07-15-2024, 11:23 PMBright-Flower
I don't feel like it's that simple.
For one thing, the Alexandrian invasion was so out of left field nobody could have seen that coming and it isn't rational to blame that on the WOL or Wuk Lamat.
Gulool Ja Ja would not have given us the key or told Krile what he knows. We wouldn't have been able to get into the City of Gold without the key and the gem stones.
And Zarool Ja was still a ticking time bomb. I have no reason to think he wouldn't have acted the same way, stolen the key stones and key from that Roegadyn guy, and set all of this into motion if the contest had been all failures instead of Wuk Lamat winning. Gulool Ja Ja is still aging and really old. One of his heads passed away form old age already. And Zarool's desire was to bring WAR across the seas. I don't think for a moment that he could have actually united or conquered the world but it would have surely caused more death than the one attack on Tuliloyol did.
Not to mention what would happen if Bakool Ja Ja still set loose Valigarmanda and we weren't there to stop it because we were taking part in the rite?
While there was tragedy with Zarool's attack, ultimately Wuk Lamat and Koana's joint leadership was the best outcome that was ever going to come from the rite of succession and an old aging man kicking the can down the road would only leave open the chance of him dying WITHOUT an heir and all falling into chaos.
That's not to say I think the DT msq is perfect and doesn't have issues. But I don't buy into the idea that things would have turned out BETTER if we weren't with Wuk Lamat. -
07-15-2024, 11:46 PMRegis_ParanQuote:
Originally Posted by Bright-Flower
My point was, that without WoL none of the claimants would find the Golden City. So the invasion wouldn't have happened. And without it Zarool wouldn't be a threat to Eorzea (it's clearly stated that they don't have the means to support even cival travel overseas, let alone military). That is not even includung the fact, that a lot of people wouldn't be intersed in actively taking part in the confict. With the exception of Mamool Ja, they are not militaristic types. And even there it's all that popular, as it turned out.
And is WoL truly the person who shold involve themselves in such issues? Are we now going to track every possible "warmongering" person anywhere on the star and try to stop them?
If anything, if an information comes that there is potential threat to Eorzea, Alliance should step in, send some diplomats to try building relations and find out if the threat is even real*. Not WoL to potentially nuke the issue.
*Our whole "reason" to consider this "threat" were words of a complete stranger, who was brought to us by a sometime acquaintance. Why WoL would ever take them seriously is beyond me. -
07-15-2024, 11:59 PMBright-Flower
He wouldn't have won the contest, because he wouldn't have gotten that final keystone. But I don't think that would have stopped Zarool Ja from finding the golden city altogether. Despite not being present when we did the 95 dungeon etc he was still able to find his way there after his advisor stole the key and he stole the keystones. Maybe it would have taken him a bit longer. But I have no reason to think Zarool wouldn't have gotten there eventually.
At one point in the MSQ he openly states his intentions. And several npcs support him taking new territory in the early zones. He's not making a secret of his intentions for war. Sure in 6.55 we only had Wuk's word to take for it but not in 6.0. He had supporters, he was the favored candidate at the start. I don't think he would have won his war, but I do believe he would have carried it out either way. Remember that Gulool JaJa is not immortal. Him deciding to not name a successor only punts the question of who will rule next down the road. It does not solve a problem. It only leaves the nation open to further division and civil war when he does pass away or grows too weak to govern.
He has the political clout to draw forces to his side. He has the will to bring war. Even accounting for what happens in the second half of the msq, I think Wuk Lamat and Koana taking the throne is still the better option in the long run. Plus again, whatever havoc Valigarmanda would have wrought if we hadn't been there, and by extension the twins and Krile, when it happened to nip that problem in the bud before it recovered to full strength. -
07-16-2024, 12:09 AMRabendaShinQuote:
Originally Posted by Bright-Flower
What would you define as 'better'? I'm not posing that any story without Wuk Lamat's forced involvement would lead to a 'happier' future or one filled with less conflict. We could have delved into lore of the Golden City alongside Krile and Erenville, their personal goals align with that. We could still have had the Alexandrian invasion in one form or another, had someone else ventured into the other shard. Bakool Ja Ja could have had some screentime of his own while he finally told us the dark parts of his people's culture. Bad events would still have happened, and lead to a similar state we find ourselves in at the end of the Dawntrail MSQ. This includes Wuk and Koana being in charge, because Zarool Ja would have showed his hand, and Bakool Ja Ja would have found understanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Regis_Paran
Like Regis_Paran stated, the threats and turmoil in Tural are very much confined to the events taking place in the trials for ascension. They lack the military force, the technology, and support to conquer. Bear in mind, canonically Eorzea has mechs, lasers, and advanced magics - and have used them before. -
07-16-2024, 12:13 AMZackneifein
Well, that's another problem that Tural is supposed to be a continental power with Zoraal Ja even mocking Garlemald, when from what we see, a single City State of Eorzea with the help of some adventurer and Cid could be enough to drive them off and I'm not including the WoL in that.
It's even more funny when Zoraal Ja said that they just have to invade Sharlayan to take their technology when even Garlemald at the height of it's power was cautious enough to not try it. -
07-16-2024, 12:20 AMRegis_ParanQuote:
Originally Posted by Bright-Flower
I remember that one of those NPCs was a merchant, intersted in expanding their sales to the new teritorries. I do wonder if that merchant would be willing to take up arms and risk their life for it...
Zarool Ja never hidden his plans, true. But do you remember why he wanted war? To make people undersrtand how great peace is. It's extremely convoluted reason in itself. So let me ask you again - how big an army would he truly gather? Again, I'd like ot remind you that as a whole, Tural people are not interested in war or conquest. Would some follow him? Sure. Would they truly be a threat? Debatable at best. And definitely they wouldn't be at the point WoL gets involved.
That's why you need to build actual relations between countires. And not do it as a byline "we signed treaty with Radz-at-Han via linkpearl, that's why wy suddenly have dragon to fight for us". -
07-16-2024, 01:16 AMAstrus
I was having a discussion elsewhere about why good fiction written in the 2nd person is such a rarity.
The general consensus is that anything written in the 2nd person needs to make a lot of assumptions on the part of the reader to tell its story and when those assumptions are at odds with the reader it becomes hard to keep up the suspension of disbelief.
When you are told how a character feels, thinks or acts in a first or third person perspective medium you might think to yourself "that's stupid" or "well I would do things differently" but this is a different person's story so you keep up the suspension of disbelief.
When a story tells you how to think, act or feel and your reaction is "that's stupid, I would never" it leads to narrative dissonance and you end up not really enjoying the story.
As I was having said discussion something clicked, this is a big part of why I did not enjoy my time with the DT MSQ. Having these feelings of friendship with and unconditional support for Wuk Lamat, and later total agreement with what goes down in Living Memory, forced on the WoL and by extension me.
The WoL is not a premade character like, for example, in other mainline FF titles with their own backstory and motivations I just happen to be in charge of. The WoL has always been my character.
Of course, I always expected to go along with what plot wants, that's how storytelling in an MMO works. However, in the past we have always been able to express dissatisfaction with snarky dialogue choices or have been able to try and futilely argue another point and have that attempt be acknowledged.
DT has robbed me of that outlet leading to this character disconnect and me emotionally checking out of a lot of the story.
When I try to be snarky or brood in silence instead of affirming something I think is dumb it gets framed as "oh no, they're not disagreeing they are in so much agreement they just don't know how to put it into words!"
When I try to argue a different point the game goes "*bzzzt*Wrong answer! Let's pretend you never said that and try again, here let me remove that answer from the selection I'm sure you'll get it right this time."
I know my choices never mattered, I know it's always been an illusion but having that illusion taken from me makes me hate having to go through the experience. -
07-16-2024, 01:19 AMCerusSerenadeI guess if you didn't pay attention the prepatch at all or the live letters explaining our role in things you could come to this conclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Endy_Sinkai