Are <5.0 main villain> fanboys also supportive of <6.1-6.5 main villain>? *SPOILERS*

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Originally Posted by Theodric

*snip*

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There were so many outs they had to make Venat good or at least morally grey. The Sundering could have been an accident. She could have been trying to lessen her people's power levels and was unaware of the devastation she'd cause. But no, they had her do it on purpose with full knowledge of what would happen. And then, as if that wasn't horrific enough, they tell us she purposely let the Ascians go so that they could go crazy mass murdering her children for 12k years to make her extra special child. So your very creation is built upon a pile of bones. If you didn't impress her so much, worlds full of people wouldn't have died horribly.

They had her pick the darkside option at every single prompt, but were like, she's pretty and wearing white, so she's a Jedi actually.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

There were so many outs they had to make Venat good or at least morally grey. The Sundering could have been an accident. She could have been trying to lessen her people's power levels and was unaware of the devastation she'd cause. But no, they had her do it on purpose with full knowledge of what would happen. And then, as if that wasn't horrific enough, they tell us she purposely let the Ascians go so that they could go crazy mass murdering her children for 12k years to make her extra special child. So your very creation is built upon a pile of bones. If you didn't impress her so much, worlds full of people wouldn't have died horribly.

They had her pick the darkside option at every single prompt, but were like, she's pretty and wearing white, so she's a Jedi actually.

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Yeah, pretty much. In the end it's a situation not unlike what caused a large ripple of disappointment through World of Warcraft's lore community. You have a similar character there who is responsible for horrific acts of attempted genocide and the complete destruction of a beloved city and when the time comes to finally and actually hold her accountable for her actions it's revealed that her evil side was responsible but her good side is back in control now so all is to be forgiven. Sylvanas slinks off to 'atone' ready to someday be brought back out for some cynical fanservice.

At no point did the fans of the characters who Sylvanas murdered in cold blood see any real payoff for it. What's unfortunate is that I encouraged some friends who were playing WoW to come over here because I believed that FFXIV would not make the same mistakes. Instead we end up with a character who not only has even more blood upon her hands for Sylvanas but also one who is actively praised for it and treated as a deity worthy of fond remembrance.

It's the most bizarre storytelling I've seen in some time, though I suppose it remains to be seen if lessons will truly be learned moving forward. I doubt it, personally - if only because the game seems thoroughly intent on catering to venue goers first and foremost these days.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Yeah, pretty much. In the end it's a situation not unlike what caused a large ripple of disappointment through World of Warcraft's lore community. You have a similar character there who is responsible for horrific acts of attempted genocide and the complete destruction of a beloved city and when the time comes to finally and actually hold her accountable for her actions it's revealed that her evil side was responsible but her good side is back in control now so all is to be forgiven. Sylvanas slinks off to 'atone' ready to someday be brought back out for some cynical fanservice.

At no point did the fans of the characters who Sylvanas murdered in cold blood see any real payoff for it. What's unfortunate is that I encouraged some friends who were playing WoW to come over here because I believed that FFXIV would not make the same mistakes. Instead we end up with a character who not only has even more blood upon her hands for Sylvanas but also one who is actively praised for it and treated as a deity worthy of fond remembrance.

It's the most bizarre storytelling I've seen in some time, though I suppose it remains to be seen if lessons will truly be learned moving forward. I doubt it, personally - if only because the game seems thoroughly intent on catering to venue goers first and foremost these days.

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I would take split personality over what we got. At least if her "bad side" had done it, we wouldn't be arguing about good and necessary genocides.

More on topic, I think that it makes more sense to compare Golbez's character arc to Ardbert. Their initial motivations and approach have a lot of similarities. Where they differ is that Ardbert benefits from the legacy of Shadowbringers, so his largely filler arc in Heavensward gets seen retrospectively as setup for that. I think we'll have to just wait and see what they do with Golbez in the future to make a full judgment on his character. He may end up doing something more heroic in the end.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

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I'm glad that people are picking up on the pattern and starting to look a bit more critically at these types of posts (and are hopefully also starting to recognize the recurring culprit's MO). This is going to recur ad infinitum, given the personality involved. To repeat a statement that I made earlier in the start of this same thread several months ago:

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Two years is a remarkably long time to run a campaign against a fictional character on an online forum.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

I would take split personality over what we got. At least if her "bad side" had done it, we wouldn't be arguing about good and necessary genocides.

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Heh. That's true. I think the biggest problem with the way in which it is all written is that it is practically impossible to discuss many aspects of the story without it tying back to the Ancients in some way. The other problem is that the Scions are inevitably going to encounter some minor, low stakes antagonists in the upcoming expansion and very likely display more of an emotional reaction to their antics over anything displayed towards the horrific cost of Venat's actions.

In many ways, Venat herself deserved better as a character. I think she'd actually be more popular than Emet-Selch had she actually been played straight and called out. They're clearly not above redeeming antagonists with blood upon their hands as they just did as much with Golbez. It's honestly quite baffling that they didn't take such a route and it's even more baffling that certain posters insist that there's some 'conspiracy of hate' against specific characters when the truth is many of us would very much enjoy the character if she was handled with more tact.

It'd be equally eye-roll worthy to me if Emet-Selch was at no point criticised for the cost of the Rejoinings. Consistency is key, really - and the setting spent so long being extremely preachy about its morals that not applying them equally across the board simply came off as a rather jarring sharp turn.

The more that I dwell on it, the more that I think to myself that yes, I do love Durante/Golbez as an antagonist and he gets to join Ilberd, Nidhogg, and Ran’jit as the XIV antagonists I vastly prefer over the popular but personally unappealing ones. (Amon/Fandaniel/Hermes is both *chef’s kiss* and more widely acclaimed.)

I like ‘Evil Buddhist’ aka characters that look to break the wheel of reincarnation by nihilistic despair and ending all life - it’s the Big Bad that I loved in Ishamael. It’s why I was tickled pink with The Endsinger and how she greatly improved the Necron trope. And it’s why one of Golbez’s battle lines makes me giggle and kick up my heels.

A villain trying to save his people by restoring their past (especially when it’s rose-colored and nostalgia plus trauma means that the systemic flaws of said past are ignored) will never gain my sympathy. But a villain trying to save his people by securing them a different future - the difference is subtle and garners more sympathy. Or when the villain is proposing the latter but deep down the anger, spite, and hurt to lash out at their people (Ilberd) in a pyrrhic funerary conflagration (getting back to Fandaniel, Endsinger, that warped Buddhist pov).

Which, yes, means that even if I did see Venat as a villain, by this criteria she’s still leagues ahead in sympathy and interest and charisma than any of the other Ancients or Ascians bar Hermes/Fandaniel.

If you’re wondering, the only Ascian beside Fandaniel I find fun is Nabriles because his VA does a punchable voice so well and there’s a pathetic desperation and eagerness to his actions and motivations that endears me. One of the characterization archetypes that I gravitate towards is a level of pathetic minion trying their best. It’s the element in that Roe mini boss from SB that I can’t remember how to spell their name right now that keeps me from writing that character off completely even though I hate him and he creeps me out. It’s why some of my favorite minor NPCs are Martyn and M’zhet Tia.

And I love Ardbert. He’s one of my favorite XIV characters so the more that Golbez is compared to him the more that I like XIV’s Golbez.

On Golbez himself:

There’s something beautiful in that Durante and his friend Golbez were the two teaming up during the Contramemoria when everyone is fighting alone - and when everyone’s a voidsent still his go-to plan is to find other voidsent in the Four Fiends and coax them to join him, leaning on the vague memories of who they once were and what they held dear. I love the twist that his holding Azdaja prisoner was on her own request and helped her retain her sense of self for millennia in the Void. It added a complex wrinkle to the villain. And most of all - he realizes the errror of his plans and makes amends and is on the long process of atoning and working towards a future without the villainous methods. He doesn’t die unrepentant or soon after his heroic turn but must work for it. And that said work will be off-screen and a long enough time jump will have occurred whenever he rejoins the story that the redemption will be palatable for the audience. A better execution of the plot beat of Gaius/Shadowhunter.

But most of all, that he ends the Void Moon plot line having replaced Golbez with Zero in his Golbez&Durante Duo is hilarious to me due to the extreme physical dissimilarity between Zero and OG Golbez. But that both are now the optimist reaching out for new allies with Durante playing wingman…. There’s something to be said about how both Zero and OG Golbez were both hinted as fellow Azem shards but ultimately dropped/inconclusive that makes this parallel work.

Also as an aside, I am still dancing for joy that the status of the Azem Shard in the Thirteenth is still ambiguous, as the lore book made clear with the reaper avatar entry. Because the plot does not need it nor cares. Which means that the revolting “WoL gathers all their counterparts on the remaining Shards as a pointless power fantasy” is not a thing that the game is doing. Thank goodness.

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Originally Posted by Denishia

On Golbez himself:

There’s something beautiful in that Durante and his friend Golbez were the two teaming up during the Contramemoria when everyone is fighting alone - and when everyone’s a voidsent still his go-to plan is to find other voidsent in the Four Fiends and coax them to join him, leaning on the vague memories of who they once were and what they held dear. I love the twist that his holding Azdaja prisoner was on her own request and helped her retain her sense of self for millennia in the Void. It added a complex wrinkle to the villain. And most of all - he realizes the errror of his plans and makes amends and is on the long process of atoning and working towards a future without the villainous methods. He doesn’t die unrepentant or soon after his heroic turn but must work for it. And that said work will be off-screen and a long enough time jump will have occurred whenever he rejoins the story that the redemption will be palatable for the audience. A better execution of the plot beat of Gaius/Shadowhunter.

But most of all, that he ends the Void Moon plot line having replaced Golbez with Zero in his Golbez&Durante Duo is hilarious to me due to the extreme physical dissimilarity between Zero and OG Golbez. But that both are now the optimist reaching out for new allies with Durante playing wingman…. There’s something to be said about how both Zero and OG Golbez were both hinted as fellow Azem shards but ultimately dropped/inconclusive that makes this parallel work.

Also as an aside, I am still dancing for joy that the status of the Azem Shard in the Thirteenth is still ambiguous, as the lore book made clear with the reaper avatar entry. Because the plot does not need it nor cares. Which means that the revolting “WoL gathers all their counterparts on the remaining Shards as a pointless power fantasy” is not a thing that the game is doing. Thank goodness.

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You just made me realize that the moral of this story about the importance of teamwork was already known by the antagonist because he was working with others before and after he became the antagonist. It's just that we killed his team. *forehead smack*

And I too and very glad we did not gobble up Zero for a powerup like so many people were hoping we would. I like Zero. I did not want to eat her.

Though you're wrong about their hopes being dashed, for the ones who believe Golbez is our shard, they believe there is a way to get him out of the crystal and since he's in a crystal it won't even be murder to eat him for a powerup. *sobs*

I would argue that Golbez's use of the Four Fiends was not the genuine friendship that Durante had with Golbez, that it had that element of self-servicing backbiting betrayal that characterized the Memoriates (not as bad as how the Unsundered Ascians used and abandoned the Sundered Ascians), but that it's part and parcel of Durante/Voidsent Golbez - he's almost there and it's why his redemption works as a story beat. He wants to free his immortal people from their current world by causing destruction on another, just as he wanted to stop the Flood of Darkness by killing the wrong person, the Watcher instead of Igehyorm. I loved the connection of Zero's flashback to Golbez and Durante's first offer as the lynch pin of their growth- Zero into someone who would not just accept the proffered hand of a new ally but to become that hand herself, and D!Golbez to trust again in the methods and dreams of his old self.

The Memoriate Crystals are sitting there currently unreverseable and static, but I think that it's obvious that those are to be distantly resolved plot point. I don't think the souls inside will be restored, but I have a feeling that when the Thirteenth's Lifestream is restored to functional with the eventual rebalancing of the aetheric balance, those crystals will be broken and the souls inside- the Four (okay, 3) Fiends and Golbez- allowed to be reincarnated. My prediction for the final Void questline involving Zero's crew and Cylva's is something involving those crystals, as Beq Lugg has some familiarity with soul/memory vessels. Gaia's experience with someone trying to erase her current sense of self and memories and her work to restart her own life on her own terms while creating a journal of those memories of a previous lost life as Loghrif force upon her by Mitron means that she'll also have a unique and sympathetic viewpoint to those of the Voidsent like Zero, not just the usefulness of her Darkness-aspected powers.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I have the same feeling. As I mentioned before: It's an ugly situation, with no objective moral right answer even if you look at every single fact; all you can do is decide where you're comfortable, and try to reckon with what that means. I have my own answer, that I've come to terms with and could explain... but won't, because the only person that answer truly matters to is myself, and because doing so frequently devolves into personal attacks. At least the guy that used to call me slurs has been banned.

By the way, I asked you earlier for 'my behavior on the forums' that has you so heavily against me; can you elaborate on that? I do like being able to improve on my faults, but that does require knowing what they are in the first place. I made a guess earlier, but I still don't think that's the one you're thinking of.

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I have to assume you and I are either both being ignored or on their block list. That and it feels as though they really don't want to help us see the error of our ways. Or where we might try to clarify things.