AOE Spam Fest <Please remove it>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryans

I never, not once, said that multiple monsters wasn't something that Final Fantasy games do. I said that spamfest wasn't something that Final Fantasy games do.

As for your example of fighting in previous titles, even if Lux_Rayna wasn't spot on, those tactics tend to be for end game leveling up or simply when you are getting too strong for the monsters you are fighting. When you are playing through those games, you don't spam your AOE abilities without care of what is the most important monster to kill first.

---

This :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Biggs

If all that is as serious as you say, then explain to me why noone spends any effort making medicines to combat those things, or bothers using materia that bolsters the defense against the very things your saying. I am not claiming these things NEVER happen, I am stating that they happen so infrequently there is no reason to plan ahead of time for them. When is the last time you used an antidote or thought about beefing your boots up with chocobo down materia? The fact is, you haven't, because there is no reason too.

No where in my post did I say these things don't exist in the game, only that they are used so sparsly and with such little effect, most of the player base doesn't go into the field concerned with what will happen if they get paralyzed in a fight or poisoned when out on there on own.

---

Look at my sig. Look at the level of my Alchemist.
I run around with medicine to cure Blind and Poison. Yes, they are infrequent, because you normally don't fight mobs which do that (I hate Djiggas :(, why is Thanalan infested) because they're a pain. Maybe i'm the only one who DOES considers that a pain? Maybe i'm the only guy who worries about making medicine?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

Biggs, I apologize. The first part of my post was directed at you, the rest was a rant in general and not.

Now onto the subject matter.

No matter what you do, the fights when repeated ad naseum will dissolve yourself into a grind. Any player with a modicum of experience in FFXI or any other grind-based MMO will understand this. Also, if you've enough sense to pay attention to the trends, you realize that no matter what fights are 'interesting' people will always pick the safest, most mundane, and most profitable means of gaining XP/Hr with the least amount of effort - period, end of discussion.

You do not grind for stimulation, you grind to push out XP and to get levels. That's it. It's never been and can never be an entertaining proposition as it is presented in any of your arguments.

To also speak on the subject of beastmen camps. It all depends on what beastmen camps you chose. For example, if you attack a NM surrounded by a pack of mages, and your tank is too close to your party, you're going to have a bad time due to Spell spam. The fights in lower end strongholds do wind up being chaotic, but to some, that's half the fun of it. Now, you do that for four hours on end, of course you're going to get bored of it. And if you do ONLY that, you're going to get bored sick of it and not want to do it again.

Some people, however, are find with those camps as is. And for good reason. For those who DO NOT AoE spam, due to availability (Say it's just a pair of people going in quick to grab a few tapers) the fights are much more involved, entertaining, an accessible. And the deeper you go in, the more difficult those fights even with parties, as more NMs, and stronger mob variants become available.

You make these fights any more in depth then the current trend, I guarantee you that they will get skipped for something easier. Look how quickly Castra Novum became a no-man's land, in spite of the valuables that are there.

You can't excerpt the level of control you're asking for in an open environment an expect it to be successful. Additionally attempting to create that in an open environment on the level which you are requesting, which is a global change for all monsters, would in fact be a game-breaker for many. Again, taking away options isn't healthy unless it's a blatant exploit. And I wouldn't call AoE Burns an exploit - especially seeming Yoshi has already stated support for power leveling, which is far more on the darker shade of grey.

I do agree that there should be an outlet for the desire to XP as a party, in situations that has you deeply engaged into the combat. I do not agree that it should come at the cost of current methods that players chose.

---

I have to disagree on one main point here though Hyrist, this idea that no matter how engaging the mobs are, killing them will eventually become a grind is, at least in my opinion, one of the main reasons most MMO's fail. To me, a successful game takes the one or two activities you will engage in the most while playing (in this case killing mobs and crafting) and makes them deep and interesting so that they continue to be fun and engaging regardless if its your first time doing them or the 1000th. As I have said, this seems to be either a point that is missed very often in MMO design or it is extremely hard to do from a design stand point. I feel like what we have now is a good base, but it caters to casual players that just want to get through things and move on. Don't get me wrong, I dont believe time synchs are the answer, however I do think creating systems that allow for sponteneous, deep gameplay is.

In FFXI, it was whatever monster you could kill safely and the fastest as you leveled up. It was many on one because that was how they designed the system to work, to the complaint of many players. If players could fight weaker monsters and destroy them en-masse, they would, and, thanks to Abyssea, they DO.

And again, lower levels just means different camps to AoE. It can be as simple as AoE Dia in early dungeons in Final Fantasy 1, reaping.

The only difference here is that because the monsters are out visible for everyone to see, you can pick your encounters. In the early final Fantasies, you could only pick which pool of randomly selected encounters you could choose from.

Now, if Ryans makes the suggestion that perhaps every so often of farming out a group a of monsters a tougher version spawns to make the fights interesting, giving gridning a bit of randomization to it, I woulden't be so opposed. But what he is proposing is the inability to pick and choose between quickly killed monsters, and slower, more tactical fights. We would have to pick his decision every time.

Nothing is preventing him from picking camps above the normal farming level, except the fact that nobody agrees with him in the game - they'd rather have the chaos and quick XP.

That means, he's trying to force his views on others who would rather just grind and be done with it. To which I counter-proposed that we don't remove the AoE centered camps, but instead provide an alternative method of having more in depth party combat for the aims of XP.

There's more wrong than simply "The monsters die too fast and frantic!" Camps can get over-burdened making XP yields bad. The number of camps themselves are limited. Picking camps that are also hunting grounds for those who hunt monsters for profit also creates conflicts of interests that provide arguments, and entitlements.

I hate to keep mentioning it, but the idea keeps getting overlooked - what about Party Orientated Leves? Ones designed specifically to assist in training parties for XP gain. What sort of designs would you like to see in a system like that, that would satisfy your specific desires.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skies

Look at my sig. Look at the level of my Alchemist.
I run around with medicine to cure Blind and Poison. Yes, they are infrequent, because you normally don't fight mobs which do that (I hate Djiggas :(, why is Thanalan infested) because they're a pain. Maybe i'm the only one who DOES considers that a pain? Maybe i'm the only guy who worries about making medicine?

---

First, I think its awesome that you do. I too carry around anti silence meds and such just in case. But the fact is, as you yourself said, the frequency and urgency with which we need and use these items does them no justice at all.

My problem isn't so much with the mobs or the EXP gain. It's the fact that THM/BLM obscenely out class melee in damage single target and AOE. It's become the standard to just throw a BLM type class at it to win. There really isnt a point for melee in EXP groups at all if you have a CNJ type class AND THM type class. Melee just sits around. Aoe pulling just caters to this nonsense. I hope it is fixed in 2.0. Just my 2 cents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asgardx

My problem isn't so much with the mobs or the EXP gain. It's the fact that THM/BLM obscenely out class melee in damage single target and AOE. It's become the standard to just throw a BLM type class at it to win. There really isnt a point for melee in EXP groups at all if you have a CNJ type class AND THM type class. Melee just sits around. Aoe pulling just caters to this nonsense. I hope it is fixed in 2.0. Just my 2 cents.

---

That's just a problem with the profound lack of Magic Resist among fodder mobs. It'd be nice if there was a noticeable damage penalty depending on just how many mobs are getting AoEd for magic sources. But that's just going to cause the BLMs to find other camps where they can still blow things up easy.

I'd like to see more MResist in monster groups in Raids in particular. That is of course on top of the alternative XP avenue for those who like more balanced parties.

personally, i don't mind the fact we get groups of mobs. what i do have a problem with is instead of ten to twenty mobs at a time make the mobs stronger so we can only effectively kill 5-6 at a time. make teamwork worthwhile to where you need to work together as a group. the sp gain can be adjusted to make up for killing less mobs, but it would make each battle more strategic. at least if the mobs were tougher to kill you throw an aoe out you are in deep trouble. it would add more tactical fights than just run in pull all the mobs and everyone throw your aoe ability.

i'm just saying instead of twenty mobs eery minute make it to where it's 5 mobs eery few minutes. once again, the sp could be adjusted to counter the sp you would lose.

I agree 10 mobs are too many. thats not final fantasy'ish.
on the other hand 1 mob per fight is also not final fantasy 'ish (like in FFXI)

i think about 1-4 mobs would be ok. and a great mix. but pulle one after an other like in FFXI is also boring (in my opinion)


in offline final fantasys you often fight against 3 monsters at one time.

Ya they need to fix this, because mindlessly spamming aoe is SUPER FUN!!!!!!!!!