I think my concern is always "dev cost vs population use". Some content that everyone (or pretty much everyone) uses is worth a lot of development time and effort from the Devs. After all, everyone is using it. Things with high engagement, and especially high engagement + repetition. So MSQ getting a lot of dev time makes sense - everyone (pretty much) does it and it's one of the big draws of the game. 4 mans should PROBABLY get more than they do because, again, everyone does those AND (unlike MSQ), they tend to repeat them a lot in roulettes, especially Experts. 24 mans arguably fit into this as well, since a lot of people tend to do those, do them weekly, do them many times over the course of the expansion (since the armor upgrade materials can be bought with the coins), and they get a lot of currency in roulettes being one of the better roulettes to level or farm tomes with in terms of raw amounts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne
CONVERSELY, there are some pieces of content that get very little engagement. The less they get, the harder it is to justify dev time being spent on them. Consider what all could be added to the game if the devs took the time they devote to Ultimates and did literally anything else with that time.
It's probably hard for Yoshi P to justify content that has only a small and niche audience that requires a lot of time to create to his bosses that write the paychecks. I get he's got a pretty high position and a lot of clout, but he seems reasonable about understanding this and adjusting.
EDIT (for space):
I feel like that's the reason for a lot of the healer and Savage changes, because the audience that was being provided by them was considered too small, and Ultimates exist supposedly for the hardest of the hardcore. I have no idea what their target is, but I'd wager they want something in the 20-40% clear rate of players (that is, all max level players, not players that try the content) to justify continuing to budge and make Savages. It's not an entitlement or dumbing down issue so much as it is an efficiency one. There's no reason to spend limited money (SE isn't a small indy, but they still don't have infinite cash) on stuff like that. So I suspect they're trying to appeal to a general audience and reserve Ultimates for the elite of players. It's hard to justify a game with both Ultimates AND Savage that only 5% clears. One or the other makes sense, but not both.
As to your second point, I guess it depends on the people. I don't think Extremes are designed to be unclearable or "f**" people up, per se. Savages a bit moreso, but they're again not Ultimates. Again, we have Ultimates in this game, and that is the content that's supposed to consist of spending weeks and weeks of head vs wall to clear. "hours invested" and so on. Savages to a point and absolutely Extremes are supposed to be pugable. They aren't supposed to fall over, mind you, but they shouldn't take days or weeks for the general person to be able to beat if they're giving it a genuine effort.
From my perspective, we have Ultimates as the "small % do it, large dev time investment" content in this game. That's kind of the point of having that as separate content, isn't it? Unless we go back to the days of Coils. Which could be hilarious in its own way.
And btw, I'm not really saying this from my perspective - I kinda don't care, I can clear Extremes just fine and never bothered with Savage until 6.0 anyway - but I'm thinking more this is the concern of Yoshi P and his team. If content gets "exclusive" enough, players that like having exclusive content for themselves love it...but it becomes harder to justify spending limited development resources (not just money, but also time) on. And in a game where Ultimates already exist for that hardest of the hardcore, cream of the crop elite skill playerbase, it's hard to argue that Savage should ALSO be designed for that same group when they already have content exclusive to them that is hogging a lot of dev time as it is.
It really is just...strange, innit?Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Like the more I think about it, the less sense it makes.
I dunno if FFXIV is ever going to pull a 2.0 again, but it's pretty clear a lot of the systems are dated to what the game was. CNJ/WHM and SCH's levels they learn skills and stuff makes sense...if you're playing ARR or HW paradigm content. Lilies weren't even added to the game (in their current form) until ShB, but they're central to WHM's design. The game doesn't give you oGCDs at the start, and like you say, it more or less trains players not to use them. WHM's first oGCDs are a speed buff almost exclusively used for damage and not (to a new player) obviously useful as a healing tool, and its second is a super long CD massive heal, which SCREAMS "in case of emergency, break glass and use me", not "weave me in here and there within your damage rotation for patching up people". WHM doesn't get THAT until Tetra at level 60 or something like that.
And before EW, it didn't get any Lily heal until passed 70, I think? They lowered one down, but you still don't get it until HW levels, I don't think.
The game frontloads healers with (other than their nuke and dot and raise) abilities that they will try not to touch in high end content instead of the other way around. And the later abilities aren't JUST more used, they become the core of the kits. It's like playing PLD at level 90 or PLD at level 50 where the rotation's completely different, contrasted with playing WAR at level 90 vs WAR at level 50 where the basic rotation and mechanics of the Job (WAR, that is, are basically established by level 50 and the abilities just upgrade or have new functionality added to them (that doesn't completely change how they're used) later.
I think they've gotten better at this over time, since newer designed/redesigned Jobs seem to be a BIT better at establishing the core of the Job early and then adding the fluff, but there are some pretty obvious outliers. Post rework SMN, for all its faults, establishes the core early. To the point people complain leveling it is boring because it's just the same thing for all 90 levels. But the benefit of that is, you have far fewer people trained in bad habits that they're then confused about having to break later.
Not necessarily. It could be that it's become one of CONFUSED expectations - as noted above where people genuinely have trained themselves never to use a GCD heal, so even when they're needed, they...don't. A lot of party - non-healers, so tanks and DPS - have gotten used to not needing to align and use mitigation and self-healing tools that they have. So it's not just "healer" being a role of low expectations, it may be that tanks and DPSers have become roles of "low expectations" when it comes to anything that isn't straight DPS. A lot of the healing issues in current can be dealt with by healers, true, but they can also be made easier if the tanks and DPSers are actually using those tools.Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Owl
So I think you're too quick to attack the healer role here, specifically, when this might just be EVERY role has gotten used to low expectations when it comes to anything outside of just dealing damage and not using any other tools.
Maybe. But I've heard the opposed argument that FFXIV's combat raises are one of the things people love about it vs other games. WoW's pushes responsibility on more people, but healers still (often) get blamed when people die, and WoW also has people far quicker to kick group/leave party and generally be toxic. It's a chicken or the egg as to if one causes the other and which is causing the other if so, but I'd wager FFXIV's combat raise helps keep things less toxic in a more general sense. Which is to say, I think it's entirely possible things COULD be far worse than they are today if FFXIV's mechanics WEREN'T so forgiving and easy going. And I'd rather not see FFXIV become like WoW...ever, honestly.Quote:
Then maybe the game shouldn't allow players to get away with so many mistakes. Like, just restrict all battle rezz in all encounters. Instead of punishing dps for failing mechanics, in most content death is an inconvenience to healers first and foremost. In WoW this problem in my opinion is less pronounced because the game doesn't pushes healers to fix the mistakes of others indefinetely. If you are lucky, you have a class with brezz and that one is highly limited by cd. If somebody failed mechanics, they failed. Though WoW in higher end dungeon content also pushes more responsibilities to tanks and dps, like cc and interrupts.
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09-22-2022, 02:23 PMRenathras
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09-22-2022, 08:22 PMT-OwlI attack the healer role because its the one where I can wholeheartedly say, that it is just plain worse than competing MMOs outside of nice and flashy animations. For Tanks, while I would love for FF14 to just plain copy active mitigation, I can at least say their dps rotation can be fun and appealing. Can't say the same about healers. Healers are hit the hardest and have become the role of lowest expectations, because SE never replaced the challenges of high healing uptime and high healing requirements with something to substitute it. Mitigation became easier and aggro management became a non-issue, but at least tanks get flashy new dps tools to make the rotation more busy each expansion. Healers get an upgrade to their one st filler, aoe filler and dot to creat the illusion they get something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
to be honest, I don't feel it. 99% of Wow dungeon runs, even while leveling, are fairly simple, enough to learn your role, and just socially distanced. You will have Drama in M+ situations, but M+ is already high end content akin to extremes and on higher keys savage, with a hugh pressure to mitigate incoming damage and deal sufficent damage on dps and tanks alike. Not to forget that performance pressure exists in this case for all roles, if a Tank does pull more than he can handle and doesn't mitigate properly, you can see that and you have legal dps meters to see when a DPS is not pulling their weight and far behind the rest of the pack. These meters also make it fairly easy to log combat data and just link it in the group chat, if the dps who stood in the fire wants to act out of line. There is also the problem that DPS are just afforded ton of personal errors they don't have to carry. The game is disproportionally designed to push party failure on the healer while having basically no responsibility for dps players in casual content.Quote:
Maybe. But I've heard the opposed argument that FFXIV's combat raises are one of the things people love about it vs other games. WoW's pushes responsibility on more people, but healers still (often) get blamed when people die, and WoW also has people far quicker to kick group/leave party and generally be toxic. It's a chicken or the egg as to if one causes the other and which is causing the other if so, but I'd wager FFXIV's combat raise helps keep things less toxic in a more general sense. Which is to say, I think it's entirely possible things COULD be far worse than they are today if FFXIV's mechanics WEREN'T so forgiving and easy going. And I'd rather not see FFXIV become like WoW...ever, honestly.
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09-23-2022, 03:26 AMRenathrasThat's fine, but it is likely leading you to bad conclusions.Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Owl
FFXIV players have gotten lazy when it comes to anything that isn't maximizing DPS. This is true of ALL ROLES, not just healers. Every DPSer in this game has mitigation and self-healing tools. Tanks have more. But you rarely see anyone (who isn't a healer main playing an off-Job) that uses them. I can't recall the last time I saw a NIN use Shade Shift that wasn't me playing NIN. I also rarely see DPSers use Bloodbath, even though it's free healing. Stuff like those are buffs, so they are visible on their bars. Second Wind is harder to see (because it's an instant-cast and done button that doesn't have any indication other than health bar filling), but I'd wager it also isn't used often.
Tanks tend to be better about this, since it's more the focus on their mind, but as a whole, I think FFXIV's unhealthy obsession with DPS > all has lead to every role becoming lazy and low expectation when it comes to mitigation. That's not a healer role issue, that's an overall all roles issue. I get you love DPS rotations (see the problem I JUST NOW MENTIONED), but that's not the problem here. The problem here is a mitigation one.
EDIT (for space):
That's fine. It's entirely a subjective thing. But many people DO feel it, and it is one of the things a lot of people love about the game. Many players don't like games where one death means a probable wipe. I also contest that WoW dungeons are good for "learning your role", at least from when I last played in Legion, and I can't imagine they've been significantly changed since then. They were good for people being jerks to others, but not learning. I remember for a long while, they didn't even teach use of CC once AOEing down packs became the norm, to the point you'd be berated if you used something like Polymorph or other CC and weren't doing just damage. They flirted with making CC needed again in Cata, but it went over like a lead balloon at that point, so outside of Mythic, WoW dungeons don't teach you much of anything, no more than FFXIV ones do, anyway, and they tend to be toxic as all hells with people leaving party if there's even one wipe.Quote:
to be honest, I don't feel it.
That's not an improvement, imo. As I said, as someone who DID play Vanilla WoW and BC, it was different back then. Having to put together parties in /trade and WALK to the dungeon entrances meant people were invested, so they'd stick with it. That doesn't exist in modern MMO gaming outside of Statics. And so few people have Statics as a percentage of the whole community that you can't reasonably use that metric.
Those self-same DPS meters have also contributed to WoW having one of the most, if not the most, toxic community among all MMOs that it's even become famous for. The people that rigidly worship them in FFXIV are also among the more toxic elements of our own community. People that use meters for self-improvement aren't a problem, but I don't think there's any argument at this point in MMO history with all that we know that they DON'T contribute to toxicity wherever they are used/come into being.
I do agree with the last sentence, though. It's entirely the reason for stuff like Twice/Thrice Come Ruin in Delubrium and Damage Downs in Savage, though I'd argue the latter are not the right kind of punishment because the only thing it punishes (for the DPS player) is their parse, which aren't even "legal" to begin with. It can cause a wipe to Enrage, but without using an add-on, there's no way for the party to know that. Twice/Thrice Come, on the other hand, has the player KO. While this still shunts the problem onto the healer, it makes it obvious the fault was with the DPSer, and in DR Savage, can't even be raised normally.
I do kinda wonder if something like that would make sense to use in harder content. Like make it where Raises have a miss chance or (since that's annoying) can only be used so often on some kind of CD. Like if in Savage you could only Raise with Swiftcast, limiting it to once a minute per Job with a Raise. While that's still frequent, it's LESS frequent. Flipside, of course, is that Raises in Savage can often cause Enrage anyway due to low DPS... -
09-23-2022, 04:14 AMT-OwlThe issue is, that these tools are just not needed in every day to day play and even in savage outside of very early prog and even then its purely the mitigation tools and the anti-knockback, which is only really needed in savage. You can't fault players for not using tools which are just not necessary just for the pure fluff of doing it, especially if in most cases healers can deal with incoming damage mostly just fine with just using their ogcd tools themselves. With healers, their core feature of healing the party is rarely challenged but compared to Tanks they also lack an interesting dps rotation to make up for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
First to adress the elephant in the room, it is utterly stupid to ban parsing tools in a game that involves enrage timers in endgame content, because that one makes it a necessity to measure the dps the party in its entirety as well as individual players do. You could just as well make life bars invisible, so that bad players don't feel bad when everyone sees that they receive too much damage or that a bad tank didn't mitigates damage properly. Secondly, yeah, WoW dungeons are not the best learning tools before m+ because similarily to ff14, they are made to be just rushed. I feel like the higher levels of character customization at least encourage players more to seek outside ressources to optimize their game though, so there is that. I also kinda disagree with the supposed rampant toxicity of woW. In most cases everyday gameplay will be like FF14. People are quicker to point out flaws in ones play or when somebody plays badly, but I think the other extreme is this supposed stepford smiler forced positivity attitude in FF14 where people will rarely if ever tell you that you play shit out of fear of eating a ban, so as long as you don't enter high end content, there is little in terms of incentive to actually improve yourself in FF14. Its both not healthy and I think WoW and FF14 are kind of mirrors to each other in terms of community interactions. There is alot of toxic negativity surrounding WoW, did you know that the game is actually dead since 2008? and alot of toxic positivity in FF14, where people are quick to shut up legitimate criticism. MCH is actually objectively worse than any other rng dps? Doesn't matter, stop bringing it up because everyone can beat any content, as long as they have their Nakama and power of dreams and all that tried anime stuff. And just to be that person, yeah, somebody who flames people for not pulling optimal dps in content where it doesn't matter is a toxic arse. You know who else is toxic? Somebody who just doesn't cares about playing well and contributing to their team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
On the second one, I think restricting the possibility to heal would be really at least somebody. I mean, having to long cast a rezz on itself feels already shit as a healer. -
09-23-2022, 07:43 AMZolvoltIf we're going to keep the 2m burst windows than I would love if I didn't have to worry about healing during them. Delaying cards or energy drain to save a life, during cd's is not fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne
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09-23-2022, 09:41 AMT-OwlHere you kinda made the critical error of ignoring what creats community engagement and streaming content which in this day and age is free advertisement and also additional content which keeos players engaged and in this regard, hardcore content by far outweighs casual content despite lower participation rates. Hardcore content creats guides, twitch livestreams and community discussions to an extent most casual content does not. Less people are willing to watch you do some easy casual content compared to following the ultimate world first race on twitch. Thats all extra content that keeps people engaged in the game despite being outside of it and outside of the initial peoduction cost of creating said content, its basically free for SE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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09-23-2022, 01:38 PMRenathrasMaybe...except you might be surprised that that isn't likely the majority of players. Like I don't think I've ever watched a stream of anyone doing a Savage or Ultimate fight. I've never found it fun watching other people play an MMO - Sword Art Online (Abridged, I think) got that point right in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Owl
I would argue casual content DOES get the clicks. Think of how many people have watched Island Sanctuary guides on YouTube since it came out just a couple weeks ago! And that's not "hardcore" content. People watched how to do Bozja stuff, how to get gear, and streamers playing the MSQ get massive amounts of views, and I imagine you wouldn't classify the MSQ as hardcore content. I have no idea the numbers, but I'd bet you even odds that the casual content gets as many or more clicks than the world first twitch race does. I bet casual content gets a LOT of clicks and views. Hell, Ginger Prime's controller guides get a ton, Mr Happy just conversation videos do, lore videos do, Asmon broke the internet leveling through the MSQ, Zepla's various discussions on bunny ears get a somewhat absurd amount of views, too.
I guess my point is, I've not seen much data supporting the argument hardcore content DOES "by far" outweigh casual content. They're probably far closer to even or even the casual content ahead over the course of a given patch or expansion. The hardcore stuff gets a spike at the start of a patch (if there's not casual stuff like Island to compete), but over the 4/8 months of that patch? I bet the casual stuff has overall more cumulative views. -
09-23-2022, 06:17 PMT-OwlJust because you didn't find it fun doesn't mean that plattforms such as youtube aren't a critical engagement tool for a MMO. They always have been since early WoW. And you ignore that FF14 streamers and content creators often tend to be raiders themselves. Its actually more of a flaw of FF14, that the game offers so little content, that everyoen has to cover everything.. Also even with people doing stuff like Island sanctuary content, thats not the casuals, its people who immediately tackled it as hardcore content and were done after a week or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
There is the additional question of who probably subscribes for longer, somebody who is just doing msq and its content or somebody who raids savage. And I personally would guess its the savage raider, just because outside of week 1 clearers, the average raider probably is kept busy with this content for at least a few weeks, while all casual content outside of stuff like Island Sanctuaries, which is fairly new, can be day 1'd. And if you aren't raiding, there isn't also much to do long term in the game for most of an expansion, like relics are only released once its halfway through. I mean, except hardcore casuals, who often tend to be this weird intersection of gaming addicts who spend most of their time and social life in a video game but remain perpetually just not good at it, if you know what I mean. -
09-23-2022, 06:50 PMRenathrasI didn't say that.Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Owl
I said watching people raid isn't something that as many people do as you think. If we tallied all the views of all FFXIV content creator videos, videos on glamour, fight guides for Extremes, Job guide and leveling from 1-90, and people's MSQ playthroughs probably have more combined views than world first raid clears do. EASILY.
I've easily watched hours of FFXIV content. I've watched a lot of Wesk Alber's Job guides. I've watched Ginger Prime/Gaming Kinda's talk cast things. I've watched Cole Evyx videos (which are just about whatever random topic he feels like and sometimes mini guides for things), Mioni's showcases of new glamour/weapon items, Desperious' for fun Job tier rankings and his random whatever topic videos, guides on PotD solo runs, Zepla random videos, Belular's FFXIV commentary, Mr Happy's "Monday with Mr Happy" videos which are also kinda random things, Speakers of Hydaelyn videos like Remnants of a Realm, The Fall and Rise of FFXIV, and occasionally some of their weekly talk cast things, and Synodic Scribe's lore videos. While I have watched Mr Happy or MTQ Capture (or some others' I can't think of at the moment) Extreme guids (and now, Savage guides), I usually do so weeks or months after the content went live.
None of that would you define as hardcore, world first, raider, etc stuff.
And no, just because people throw themselves as Island Sanctuary does not make it "hardcore content". If that's true, then I'm a hardcore player, because I was one of those people. YES, that's for casuals. YES, the videos for it are for casuals. You can't redefine terms so you can insist you're technically correct when you're wrong.
Savages raiders unsub after about a month of a patch then resub about 2 weeks before the next patch. The players who stick with the game and don't unsub are generally people who do SOCIAL stuff (housing more than anything because people not wanting to lose their houses), which is generally considered casual content.
EDIT (for space):
MSQ only players sub the least, that's probably true, but most casuals aren't MSQ only. You'd probably define me as casual - I've cleared exactly two Savages in all of FFXIV at level (P1S and P2S), but I've played since 2013 and had a sub that didn't lapse for most of that time because I do and enjoy other content. Bozja can't be day 1'd. POTD can't be day 1'd. Farming for mounts in Ex can't be day 1'd. Fully gearing my character with tome gear can't be day 1'd. If anything, Savage raids are the things with the expiration date. Normally, Savage raiders get their clear, they farm it for gear, they help their Static members farm it as they want to, but once everyone has their gear and their clears and mounts, what do you do the other 8 months until the next raid tier? You're done. Meanwhile, that person farming scripts in Ishgard so they can get that rare dye for their perfect glamour cosplaying Saber from Fate Stay Night? THAT PERSON - a casual - has WEEKS if not months worth of content at their fingertips.
I don't get what you mean about this game offering "so little content"/"isn't also much to do long term". I've managed to find things to do to justify staying subbed for years without raiding. In content lulls, I tend to go to Eureka/ARR/HW relics (and now Bozja), work on POTD, right now I'm in a weekly group proging DRSavage (which isn't current content raiding Savage/Ultimate), farm some old Mount, solo HW (now SB) Extremes/Riads for fun and/or achievements, work on maxing all Beast Tribe reputations (finally finished the last of those in November before EW came out), etc etc. I know a girl who has every ARR and HW relic and half the Eureka ones but has no static and has never done a single Savage raid (not counting BA).
Us dirty casuals just come up with personal goals to do. Right now, I'm pushing myself through POTD a few floors at a time - not too many, don't want to burn out on it. I'll get Necromancer eventually. Farming Bozja shards so I'll be ready on our group night with essences and Raises. Check my Island to keep my (near slave) workshop going so I can eventually buy all the mounts and such. Run Frontlines daily to get PvP season rank so I can get those minions and mount and stuff. Going zone by zone (every couple days) to clear all the sidequests I never did. Go on a mounted "walking tour" of ARR zones from one end to the other without using teleports to see all the sights and find old 1.X relics as well as references to past things (like the Allegan Sunway/Starway criss-crossing Thanlan), and so on and so forth.
While the entire community isn't me, a lot do play kinda like I do - they get it in their head they want to work on something and they...do.
And there is SO MUCH in this game besides Savage raids. If that's all you're doing, you're missing out!
Your view of the community as a whole, I think, seems rather...skewed. -
09-23-2022, 07:16 PMAbsurdityThe 2 minute burst meta simply needs to go, it creates more problems than it solves on top of being just really boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zolvolt