New summoner is unacceptable

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Originally Posted by Riusvell

It's called black mage, which is the class you're playing.
Rydia is a Black Mage with Summoner tacked onto it.
What about Eiko and Garnet? They were Summoners, like the race Summoner who also knew White Magic.
Yuna, despite her Sphere grid letting us have her not be a White Mage.

Your argument regarding Summoner is just flat out invalid.

For once XIV did something that did not involve either White or Black Magic but opted for Green instead.
Green Mage actually focuses on both positive and negative, including poisons and making enemies more vulnerable to for example Fire.

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And FFXIV's Green Mage managed to fail in such spectacular fashion that it received a rework every expansion until it finally became an actual Summoner. This concept may have been unique but it certainly was not well received, with the past 8 years full of complaints how FFXIV's Summoner did not feel like one at all and how some regarded it as the worst version of the class in the series. Up until now anyway.

Summoner with black magic-like trance spells in between so far seems to be working pretty great compared to convoluted dot juggling and pets that weren't doing what I told them to do.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

And FFXIV's Green Mage managed to fail in such spectacular fashion that it received a rework every expansion until it finally became an actual Summoner. This concept may have been unique but it certainly was not well received, with the past 8 years full of complaints how FFXIV's Summoner did not feel like one at all and how some regarded it as the worst version of the class in the series. Up until now anyway.

Summoner with black magic-like trance spells in between so far seems to be working pretty great compared to convoluted dot juggling and pets that weren't doing what I told them to do.

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And now it still is not a Summoner.
It's a joke of what it is pretending to be, our summons do not do anything and are even less impactful than the mana draining cherished cutscene summons. Which actually did more interesting things than what we've got now.

The king of Dragons, Bahamut. Supposedly one of the most powerful summons, is now just worse than he was in his previous iterations.
It's like he's barely there, same for Phoenix.

How can you call that a Summoner? Seriously, I barely notice my summons at all!

And how can you call the Summoner of the past a Summoner with its hideously designed egis and demis that took ages to build up to? That were also hardly there? Please. Summon magic being 1 off spells is nothing new. They do in fact do something, they do their attack, then leave. That was Summon magic for a significant portion of FF's history, there is no pretending otherwise.

This is the compromise after 8 years of failed pet mechanics. Finally we have something with good flow that actually works for the most part.

RIP Summoners! Retired job.

It's somewhat amazing how people still don't realize that FFXI and old single-player titles have no bearing on MMO class design.

I'm going to preface this by saying: I've only really casually played Summoner since 3.X and occasionally dipped my toes into the raiding/optimization pool with it.

Anyway, to offer a more leveled and somewhat positive opinion on the matter; Having been playing it a decent chunk of the way through the MSQ? I have to say, I'm finding this new version of SMN to feel not all that different from its predecessor. Summoner still spent a large amount of their time hitting one GCD in 5.X. The dots were there to track, egi assaults, and you had ruin 2. Any of the supposed 'complexity' Summoner had came entirely from what I will dub CURSED OPTIMIZATION. And that's not a bad thing, it just wasn't my cup of tea.

The SMN of 5.X and 6.0 still feel incredibly same-y to me. Personally, I'd probably kick the dots and ruin 2 back in. It does feel like without those dots to manage, there is a bit of empty space in the rotation that could stand to be filled. And Ruin 2's return needs no explanation. But so far, I've been having a decent time with it, and I look forward to seeing if that opinion stays going forward into raiding/after the honeymoon phase wears off.

Yeah and that makes for horrible MMORPG gameplay.
What works in single player games does not work in MMORPG's.

If I wanted to experience Yuna/Eiko/Garnet/Rydia/FF3/FF5 levels of Summoning, I would fire up a single player game where I can spam one button to grind my gil and levels while overpowering the story.
But that stuff doesn't work here.

It had more engagement than the shallow mess we have now, trying to appease to people who will ultimately drop the job because it's not shiny and still not "Yuna Dissidia"-eque enough for some reason. Which is a completely different type of game and again, not an MMORPG.

I clearly stated that the Summons don't feel like they make an impact, why are you ignoring that part of what I said?

8 years of failed code, not mechanics. It was the CODE that's the issue.
We still ghost, we still don't fire off actions properly.
That is not mechanics, that's on the code.
If you want to make arguments that talk about things, know how they work instead of making claims that it's somehow an improvement while the issues are still persistent in a way, which were promised to be gone in some essence.
We have no mechanics now, even the healer jobs have more.
"B-but-!!" I'll stop you right there, mashing glowy buttons that fire off instantly without actually properly building up to something is not a mechanic. It's fluff, it's nothing.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

And how can you call the Summoner of the past a Summoner with its hideously designed egis and demis that took ages to build up to? That were also hardly there? Please. Summon magic being 1 off spells is nothing new. They do in fact do something, they do their attack, then leave. That was Summon magic for a significant portion of FF's history, there is no pretending otherwise.

This is the compromise after 8 years of failed pet mechanics. Finally we have something with good flow that actually works for the most part.

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Have you even played the new summoner yet? We still have the janky pets. When you cast summon a new pet spawns next to the player and does its attack. The pet has a travel time and a delay before its attack which can miss as the range is rather limited. Summon also requires a target. Which means if your target dies right before you cast it then you have to select a new target. Before, when the pet was on Sic, it'd choose the next suitable target for auto attacks and Egi-Assault commands. The summon doesn't even stick around for long. It just spawn, attacks, then despawns. You lose out on the cool factor of having the pet stick around.

This is not better.

hmm right now i feel as though the ff14 summoner is still on par with the definition of the word summoner for ff games although as said it is still barebone.

summoner summon strong beings to aid him and that is true just now.

using carbuncle he can order it to give a shield and a damage buff.
he uses carbuncle to channel their power for a powerful attack and in return he gains their power.
same method of summoning he uses his carbuncle to channel the elder primals and bahamut and phoenix work the same as carbuncle where he can also order them to do a grand attack.

the theme is there in the kit, you can see him being more of a hybrid of pet/chaneler using his own pet to perform summons.
true its barebone but it can answer the feeling that is summoner just need to be expanded on tbh with more pet actions, i think the dots theme could have been a bit left due to arcanist lore but right now the kit should answer to both old ff summon for 1 time attack and also for those who like to command pets.

besides, its better to have that 1 button that changes effects based on your choice of summon while having other buttons as well then have to press 1 button the entire run which effects nothing in your kit, you can ask any healer in the game what he constantly pressing in runs and it not each of their healing spell thats for sure.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

Have you even played the new summoner yet? We still have the janky pets. When you cast summon a new pet spawns next to the player and does its attack. The pet has a travel time and a delay before its attack which can miss as the range is rather limited. Summon also requires a target. Which means if your target dies right before you cast it then you have to select a new target. Before, when the pet was on Sic, it'd choose the next suitable target for auto attacks and Egi-Assault commands. The summon doesn't even stick around for long. It just spawn, attacks, then despawns. You lose out on the cool factor of having the pet stick around.

This is not better.

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hmm if your target dies when u command you ghosted your ability cause he wont do it to a new target.
if you order the pet it could have delayed its attacks and you could have ghosted your devotion or enkindle when u needed to summon phoenix/bahamut or delay those summons and miss burst windows.
if you needed to use sic then it was rather weird cause the egi would still auto attack what you targeted regardless like chocobo it attacks the first target u hit so only if u needed to switch u use sic which means rarely need to switch targets for pet auto attacks.
basically its clunkiness and just annoying delays were not sophisticated pet class features, they were the reason which 5.0 summoner was a hot mess.

you still have the elements of a pet command in carbuncle and in form bahamut and phoenix while retaining the feeling of summons does big attack , it just your main pet is carbuncle and you use him to call the primals.
i think new iteration has a bit of everything although its still barebone but it does answer both aspects i feel of having a pet and summoning big primals at the same time

It is sad for people who loved the job how it used to be, but Arcanist/Scholar/Summoner is massively popular as the noob job for new players coming into the game. I think it is fine if one dps/healer/tank job has a more simplistic rotation. I started with this job and it is often recommended to new players due to the diversity of job. I've moved on to other jobs now but out of all the jobs I have played, I found Summoner to be the most clunky, it seemed unnecessarily convoluted and was extremely difficult to put out some decent numbers if your ping wasn't so hot, the pet seemed to not trigger a lot of the spells it was meant to cast.