Each expansion I get hyped and also worried about more skills.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Oh, I read the chain. It's simply that this part (underlined above) did not come across, especially when explicitly calling WoW's rotations "much simpler" regardless of the spec or job being compared. Such would then rely on (A) what is exclusively "rotation" considering that the term in WoW also includes priority order, shifts therein, and many other elements of playflow, and (B) which of the included elements/criteria therein are weighed higher.

Personally, even friggin Arms spec, under certain builds (Collateral-Merciless, in a predominantly AoE fight but with frequent add appearances, for instance), will have every bit as tight and complex of macrorotation as an optimized DRG. It just has both a lower button ceiling (though not necessarily even a lower effective button ceiling, at least by any more than 2) and a higher effective button floor (rather than all but 1 of your GCD skills being effectively non-choices for 9 out of every 10 GCDs).

Honestly, for raid design, I'd say XIV mostly gives WoW a run for its money, though I wish it was a little less centered on DDR alone. Its the more mixed-encounter content like dungeons (M+, in WoW's case) where WoW's higher effective button floor really shines by comparison.

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I guess I still feel WoW does have easier rotations and fewer buttons.

Skill in WoW (for me) can be in executing the rotation but also in knowing your abilities that exist outside the rotation. I main a Beast Mastery hunter for example so my class in WoW has always had a very easy rotation but in early versions of the game I needed to worry about pet happiness and pet skill training and ammo and tranquilizing shot to remove a berserk from a boss and jump shooting to effectively kite enemies. Even now in later versions of WoW I consider it skill that when I am in a corner I can't get out of I can use aspect of the turtle to avoid damage then jump, spin in mid-air, and disengage to fling myself backwards into the fray again. Mind control and spell steal are not on rotation but can be extremely valuable in certain encounters. Warlocks in BC Classic have a one button rotation but great warlocks should be aware of the rest of their kit like curse of tongues and banish. WoW has these moments where using non-rotational abilities is important and FFXIV doesn't have that. FFXIV barely HAS non-rotational abilities, the ones that exist are usually not usable in combat.

Unfortunately reducing the number of buttons per class in FFXIV and shortening rotations to add WoW style utility abilities would cause issues in class balance and change the way encounters are designed. It would become a different game.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

Beast Mastery hunter

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...is going to be the meme/classic example of simplicity for a reason. Still has more going on than Bard, though, imho.

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Unfortunately reducing the number of buttons per class in FFXIV and shortening rotations to add WoW style utility abilities would cause issues in class balance and change the way encounters are designed.

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Not... necessarily, no. That'd completely depend on what is removed, what is added, and even more importantly, how that trade works, exactly.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

...is going to be the meme/classic example of simplicity for a reason. Still has more going on than Bard, though, imho.


Not... necessarily, no. That'd completely depend on what is removed, what is added, and even more importantly, how that trade works, exactly.

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Lol.

Beast Mastery has had moments of being fairly complex but it's the Meme Spec for sure. I started playing it in vanilla when it was the hardest spec in the game but I still love it. It's WoW's only mobile ranged class.

I've played every spec in the game over the years though.

More situational skills is cool, but it's not something that you will use often (especially in the lowest difficulty). Fusing the combos in 1 button can just make most of the rotation a little bit more boring imo. The only way to avoid something more boring is creativity, idk if asking for more will be 100% better and we won't just end up with too many jobs getting too many similar skills at the same time.

I think some sort of balance has to be reached, more skills have to work with eatch other. On tanks we have things like low blow or interject that are almost or completly useless sometimes. If the skill could do something else than stopping specifics attacks on mobs (and be avaidable more often) it could be more interresting to use.

Having a 123 to do over and over on tank is boring. Even GNB gets old because you often have something that looks like a 123, it only changes when the burst phase comes up. Defense almost never works with offence too. TBN is the only CD that can be used in that way and it doesnt even rewards you for doing that, you just don't loose anything with shouldn't be the goal : a dmg increace after breaking tbn might do the trick (if you don't break it, you get lower dmg, but not too mutch).

Bloodbath is for dps, somehow tanks don't have sutch a skill (well war has one but that's it). Nothing to do defensively, outside of pushing CD when a tankbuster happens. Same for agro, push you tank stance and you are done, sometimes a tankswap. That really is a waste imo. Imagine having to use "refresh" your tank stance, a small thing that will make tanking a little less boring. Imagine having to use Bloodbath often to help healers getting and using more dps skills.

I can't really talk for dps but i think the idea of skills working more with eatch over still aplies. For drg jump does a great job at that but the other similar skill don't do anything outside of getting closer for more dmg. Spineshatter Dive getting stacks might make it a little bit more interesting (when using all my SDs ? when saving them ?), but that debatable and i'm sure there's other ways to explore.

If there's skills that should be fused, it's aoes. It's often the same thing over and over (and does nothing exept dmg) without mutch change. The tanks could use that very well imo, maybe the dps too. Idk about the casters tho. You could say that the main combos are boring too (it's just 123 after all), i think the main problem is that there's nothing mutch going on outside of finishing the combo. If some buttons could "break" the monotony of the main combos, either by procs, just using then when they become avaidable or something else, it will become less boring. The idea of a skill that turns the single target combos into aoes could work as well.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Y'all should be more worried about how many skills they're going to take away at lower levels only to add them back at high level with a different coat of paint lmao.

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I'm more worried Monk is just going to get another Dragonball attack move again.

I mean what i meant to say was; yes please, more Dragonballs.

im more afraid of losing skills i like tbh... back then i was pretty sad about the skills monk lost in SB. i dont mind a few skills more.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

We're not dealing merely with a button cap; we're dealing with a class dev team (duo? trio?) that only ever actively dumbs down the jobs they make any notable modifications to.

As Forte mentioned, job button counts are not equal, or even all that close to equal. Neither, even, are effective button counts (imagine every skill that could be consolidated, such as Ley Lines<>Between the Lines, Enochian->Blizzard IV<>Fire IV, Umbral Soul<>Transpose; RDM's melee chain, Verstone<>Veraero (unless Swiftcast/Dualcast), Verfire<>Verthunder (unless Swiftcast/Dualcast), Scorch replacing Verholy/Verflare, Impact replacing either AoE upon Dualcast or Swiftcast; Chaos Thrust Chain(+2), Full Thrust Chain(+2), Jump<>Mirage Dive, Blood of the Dragon<>Stardiver; etc., etc. and then consider what those jobs' button counts would be).

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You want to kick up a hornets nest on these forums? Even think about mentioning button consolidation.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...mbo-structure/

I'm not really worried. As long as we don't get Cast times for Physical Ranged back I don't really care. I always appriciate when my hotbar gets a little cleaner. We have to much skills to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

You want to kick up a hornets nest on these forums? Even think about mentioning button consolidation.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...mbo-structure/

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Because every time someone mentions it, there is always this blind assumption if we just consolidate the combos suddenly we'll get brand new innovations and wicked new abilities to replace everything despite there being absolutely zero precedence. In fact, they've shown the precise opposite. The far more likelihood scenario is like Shurrikhan said: a job like Dragoon losing several buttons and getting back maybe two that you actually use with regularity.

I'd be far more open to combo consolidation if I actually believed they would give, again Dragoon, five new abilities (both GCD and oGCD) I'll actually press frequently. I don't want them removing the combos just so people can fit more mounts on their hotbars.

I used to play WoW for more than 12 years and we went through the same issue. Many were happy with what we had and many were not so they Blizzard chose went for the prune. I for me things were never the same.
I've seen SE handdle things better than Activision so hopefuly they do a better job otherwise we all end up having washout versions or shades of the jobs we currently play.