Criticism of Shadowbringers and the hostility there in

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

Can you give me a break down of what is better, from the stand point of the content, how players engage with it, its depth and nuance.
How it conflicted with other forms of content if it did, if the conflict occured was the prior content rendered moot or not?

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Eureka: people complained they HAD to do Eureka to get the relic and couldn't do normal content stuff like in the past.

Bozja: can do some normal content stuff to get the relic like in the past.

Firmament doesn't take anything away from beast tribes, unless you only do them for EXP. I've never had the option to do beast tribes for EXP, so that must be nice. Hell, I didn't have the option to do Firmament for EXP.

We got essentially 2 extra alliance raids with Bozja, compared to three we normally get. I found both of them fun, but then, I find most content in this game fun. Its why I still play it 10 years later. (or 8 if you want to nitpick ARR)

Everyone complained when Hildabrand was lame because they ran out of ideas but did it anyway because people wanted it. Now people complain they aren't doing it anyway.

He'll likely be back in 6.x at some point.


The reason people constantly have issues with criticism on these boards, is that its almost always "this thing sucks, they should have just done something else, or done a better version of the thing we hated before, even though this is similar to that and many would consider it an upgrade to said content" or my favorite "they should turn this game into a different game by changing core game aspects because us people who liked that game want it in this game too" despite people liking the way this game is...

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

It's funny that you made a point that anyone who has anything slightly negative to say about the game is met with accusations of pushing an agenda or told to just unsub, and here those people come!

It may be a surprise to some people: saying you want more from the game you love is kind of what happens when you truly care and enjoy a game. If people truly hated this game, they wouldn't be saying SE could do better. They wouldn't be saying anything at all. It's in bad faith to sweet criticisms under a rug because you believe there is a group of people who somehow just want to be upset for the sake of it.

Humans are multifaceted. I can complain to high heaven about how the Tower, a dungeon, and a wing of Eden are literally unplayable to me as a blind person. That doesn't mean I'm not having fun in this game. We are capable of having complex thoughts and emotions, huh, isn't that weird!!!??

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Those are all very true things, but with this community being notorious for sending death threats to people who say the game should be criticised more, detracting from it for the sake of it because lol, and a whole host of other things, its hard for me to at times take them seriously, and thats a flaw on my part.

But my point still stands, rather then arguing amongst ourselves with semantics, lets think about how this game can survive for another 10 years and if Shadowbringers failings can be a one time thing over a problem that repeats due to internal nonsense that can be avoided.

There always seems to be a pattern to these convocations about Shadowbringers "lack of content" It starts off about this lack, then when someone points out that it's more just a reshuffling as where one area lost out another gained it shifts to "Ah well this or that content was bad!" Yes, and? Firstly that moves the convocation out of the realm objectivity and into subjectivity and secondly a piece of contend not being to someone liking or being implemented in a way some find poor doesn't suddenly make an expansion bad. Heavensward is held by many as the best expansion, it's also the expansion that added the Diadem, content still cursed by some, is Heavensward by extension a bad expansion simply because some people don't like some of the content?

Shadowbringers has as much content as the other expansions, we can all argue if we like it or not, or enjoy what area go focused on more than what received less focus but that is all subjective, Shadowbringers broke records and was a huge success for SE, we few on the fourms can say whatever we want if everything else is saying the expansion was a hit.

As for my own personal thoughts, I overall am very happy, loved the story and I enjoy crafting and gathering so enjoyed them getting a lot of focus, as for Bozja, I like it with my only disappointment being that they listened to the complaints from Eurela about not wanting to have to do it all inside the zones, so we ended up with this strange hybrid. I hated a lot of things about Eureka but liked the core concept and in many ways they fixed all the issues I had with it, Eureka was my first even finished Relic so I was looking forward to Bozja and wish it was all contained inside, but I do understand that was them trying to address a complaint and otherwise got a lot of things I wanted fixed about the content addressed so I'm happy overall.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Eureka: people complained they HAD to do Eureka to get the relic and couldn't do normal content stuff like in the past.

Bozja: can do some normal content stuff to get the relic like in the past.

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I think the main issue with Bozja and Eureka is the hard truth that SE just thinks fates make for good content. The CEs are a huge step above Eurekas mob grind to prep fates, but it's still just a fate grind to make it to the CE to grind fates to make it to the CE to grind fates..

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I think the main issue with Bozja and Eureka is the hard truth that SE just thinks fates make for good content. The CEs are a huge step above Eurekas mob grind to prep fates, but it's still just a fate grind to make it to the CE to grind fates to make it to the CE to grind fates..

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But Fates are just world events with music and a circle. I really never understood WHY people hate them.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Eureka: people complained they HAD to do Eureka to get the relic and couldn't do normal content stuff like in the past.

Bozja: can do some normal content stuff to get the relic like in the past.

Firmament doesn't take anything away from beast tribes, unless you only do them for EXP. I've never had the option to do beast tribes for EXP, so that must be nice. Hell, I didn't have the option to do Firmament for EXP.

We got essentially 2 extra alliance raids with Bozja, compared to three we normally get. I found both of them fun, but then, I find most content in this game fun. Its why I still play it 10 years later. (or 8 if you want to nitpick ARR)

Everyone complained when Hildabrand was lame because they ran out of ideas but did it anyway because people wanted it. Now people complain they aren't doing it anyway.

He'll likely be back in 6.x at some point.

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The issue with the "normal content" we can do for the ShB relics is that none of the normal content is ShB content.
If you wanna do ShB content for your ShB relic, which makes sense, you're stuck in Bozja.
And there is no little to no variety in what you can do for them, regardless of whether you want the in or out of Bozja method.

I haven't verified this myself but I've heard we're not getting the quest for having them all allied in 5.5 actually. And... The issue with the Firmament is that it has no replayability. The "gameplay" of fêtes, if you can even call it that, is mindnumbingly boring and the rest is really just Rowena 2.

The big issue with ShB is the lack of variety of combat content and replayability of other content, and that's why it feels like we're getting less, what content added in ShB will remain relevant into the next expac the way Deep Dungeons and Eureka did? Maybe Bozja, but it remains a lot less engaging and rewarding than Deep Dungeons.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I'm not missing the point. I see it very clearly. I prefer not to waste my time arguing with those who prefer to push their less content agenda. I've got tons of stuff to do in game. Let's be sure to push the less dungeons tune too while we're at it cause everyone loves to run dungeons.

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Except even with less dungeons, they still can’t even give us dyable dungeon gear or non-reused dungeon gear.(Gotta love having shire gear for the 5.2 dungeon lmao)

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Eureka: people complained they HAD to do Eureka to get the relic and couldn't do normal content stuff like in the past.

Bozja: can do some normal content stuff to get the relic like in the past.

Firmament doesn't take anything away from beast tribes, unless you only do them for EXP. I've never had the option to do beast tribes for EXP, so that must be nice. Hell, I didn't have the option to do Firmament for EXP.

We got essentially 2 extra alliance raids with Bozja, compared to three we normally get. I found both of them fun, but then, I find most content in this game fun. Its why I still play it 10 years later. (or 8 if you want to nitpick ARR)

Everyone complained when Hildabrand was lame because they ran out of ideas but did it anyway because people wanted it. Now people complain they aren't doing it anyway.

He'll likely be back in 6.x at some point.


The reason people constantly have issues with criticism on these boards, is that its almost always "this thing sucks, they should have just done something else, or done a better version of the thing we hated before, even though this is similar to that and many would consider it an upgrade to said content" or my favorite "they should turn this game into a different game by changing core game aspects because us people who liked that game want it in this game too" despite people liking the way this game is...

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Bozja as a whole was a step in the right direction but ultimately it feels like an over correction instead of actually offering content within Bozja, and content outside of Bozja that allows you to get your relic.

The Firmament does, its easier to blast lvl all of your crafters and gatherer within, thus making beast tribes moot, you no longer have to do beast tribes unless you want the glam hair and emotes, it also makes the games world emptier, as an MMO(at least imo) that defeats the purpose of it being an MMO, newer players see older players less, the zones feel empty, an MMO should encourage people to be in the world.

Castrum Lactus Litore and Delebrum Reginae should just be the icing on the cake of the system Eureka originally was given how so many felt intimidated by Baldesion Arsenal.

And lastly thats feedback, can it be more contructive, of course, but people should encourage that none the less over constantly being hostile and arguing amongst themselves. And as far as what I've said in this thread is concenred I think 14 has had systems that could have been buiilt upon over bring outright gutted from the game. I want to see 14 grow to be even more like 14, not a clone of something else. Not everyone can be pleased, but wanting the game to do more of what it has done only an expansion ago isn't something I think is hard to do.

So Lack of content, shallow content, whatever name fits, Shadowbringes in my eyes could have been more, if SE gave creative unit3 more.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Eureka: people complained they HAD to do Eureka to get the relic and couldn't do normal content stuff like in the past.

Bozja: can do some normal content stuff to get the relic like in the past.

Firmament doesn't take anything away from beast tribes, unless you only do them for EXP. I've never had the option to do beast tribes for EXP, so that must be nice. Hell, I didn't have the option to do Firmament for EXP.

We got essentially 2 extra alliance raids with Bozja, compared to three we normally get. I found both of them fun, but then, I find most content in this game fun. Its why I still play it 10 years later. (or 8 if you want to nitpick ARR)
The reason people constantly have issues with criticism on these boards, is that its almost always "this thing sucks, they should have just done something else, or done a better version of the thing we hated before, even though this is similar to that and many would consider it an upgrade to said content" or my favorite "they should turn this game into a different game by changing core game aspects because us people who liked that game want it in this game too" despite people liking the way this game is...

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The problem with Bozja is i do Bozja to do ShB content. I didn’t order and buy shadowbringers to play heavensward arr or sb. The bozja relic, to do it efficiently, requires you to revisit Arr,Hw,and SB raids/content. That’s horrible design. Instead of making the actual instance have more variety they instead just turned it back into Heavensward relics of run this old stale content 20 times. It feels like a large time sink just to keep people subbed.Yes bozja has given us two raid-like things but again, that came at the cost of extra dungeons, and an entire deep dungeon which would’ve featured more content than those two raids do. People just seem way too sensitive to criticism with this game which i mean...that’s the community as a whole but i digress.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I think the main issue with Bozja and Eureka is the hard truth that SE just thinks fates make for good content. The CEs are a huge step above Eurekas mob grind to prep fates, but it's still just a fate grind to make it to the CE to grind fates to make it to the CE to grind fates..

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I mean, SE don't just think it, some people really enjoy that. When they tried to derail the train in Pagos a lot of people, not just the ones who were trying to stand around for an easy ride, but the ones actually out there killing the mobs to spawn the fates for the train wanted it back. They enjoyed the chill nature of just killing some mobs, chatting in shout and taking it slow, it was probably the closest Eureka came to capturing the vibe of older grinder MMO's and some people are still all over that. Though some hate it, doesn't make either right or wrong, doesn't make the content bad. That's why themepark MMO's offer variety, if you hate rollercoasters(Eukera) you're not supposed to sit on the rollercoasters and complain you hate rollercoasters, well, you can, your ticket lets you do that, but you could also get off of the rollercoaster and ride anything else in the park.