That's a lot of projection you seem to have there Mr. "Snowflake".Quote:
Originally Posted by SamRF
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04-24-2020, 10:54 AMRazard
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04-24-2020, 02:53 PMBarretOblivionOkay now hold up there. That is assuming the tank is being a chicken about it. There are also times I have been chewed out for not pulling the darn world when I tank for a number of reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by SamRF
1) Healer is undergeared and being cocky. (Happens every week at least once and DPS don't take time to look at the healer gear when they don't realize the healer is struggling).
2) DPS are undergeared, adds are dying to slow for me to have enough cooldowns for another big pull cause I have to use extra ones because the previous pull didn't die fast enough.
3) I have no cooldowns available. Usually because a healer decided to DPS too much instead of heal and I have to burn extra cooldowns. Im not going to pull a large mob with 0 cooldowns, sorry.
So yes, some tanks are going to be slow at pulling all the time. Grit your teeth and deal with it or be a tank, but if you so much as pull adds that I am not in the process of grabbing, good luck on you cause there is a reason I didn't pull them. That is your responibility at that point. Don't ASSUME everything. I have had enough dungeon cocky players that turned around and bit the dust and then blame the tank for getting overzelous. If you don't like the tempo of the tank then, tank yourself. Easy as that. This isn't just a "oh you hurt my feelings" there is also a "No you are just being straight up ingorant" as well. -
04-24-2020, 05:24 PMShurrikhanThat depends, though, in this particular circumstance (not the general idea, of course). Asking for confirmation each time to obvious questions is just that asshole annoying everyone in your Gen Ed class rather than the asshole TA in your Major class who proceeds without explaining anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulzscha
If the words amount to asking your healer, "Should I pull more?", that is more than sufficiently answered by your healer, itself, pulling more.
DPS pulling, on the other hand, is far less likely to equate to "Yes, the person who controls whether we live or die is ready and wanting to pull more."
Given how rarely I look down at chat mid-fight, and that it's none too obvious on my ultrawide when they do, I, as a tank, would much rather my healer pull to confirm their preference than type to me while I'm doing other things. I just expect them to at least do so in tactical manner. -
04-24-2020, 07:05 PMVulcannthen you deal with it like a non-whiney little baby would. when did you become more important than the tank? who are you to decide if the tank is "not good" just because its the Norm for tanks to pull bigger doesn't mean they are forced to. omg a tank pull one pack at a time and the dungeon took a whole 10 minutes longer ... oh god the world is gonna end.Quote:
Originally Posted by SamRF
here is your options
1) suck it up buttercup
2) play a tank and shut up about
3) find a group that will encourage your playstyle and run dungeons exclusively with them. -
04-24-2020, 07:55 PMShurrikhanWhy are we pretending that the expectations Sam is mentioning are the rarity, not the norm?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcann
Big pulls are the norm. Tanks not wasting their party's time is the norm.
Tanks fall outside of the norm do so when the party itself is outside the norm (i.e. they're being adaptable), when they lack experience (which is wholly fixable), or when they take on the efforts or step outside their perceived vision of taking (as opposed to what actually helps most). In my own experience, these have made up about a twelfth or less of all dungeon runs, with the second case being the most common and the first the least.
Healers pulling in the first case is helpful, as, when a tank checks the healer's gear or the party's dps and finds the situation marginal, the person most affected can make the call.
Healers pulling in the second case is hit or miss, as it can give experience that pushes them into higher levels on confidence and efficiency, but can also frighten off certain tanks -- if one were to judge by the posts here, almost permanently.
Healers pulling in the last case is helpful in the long run, if perhaps less so in the short. In the long run, it helps to push those tanks out of the idea that they are the only player in their party whose preferences matter. In the short, it can force oneself and the DPS to wait, sometimes for quite a while, for a new tank after the tank completes their tantrum and stomps off or is finally able to be kicked.
Having run so many across three characters, I've seen well over twenty tanks refuse to pull or move until kicked and perhaps a dozen even to roll on loot as not to be able to be kicked, while twice my tank has even chain pulled to maintain combat while refusing to actually tank (again, to prevent a vote kick) just to harass the party. I've not once seen that behavior from another role, with the closest being healers who adamantly refuse to deal damage or DPS who adamantly refuse to AoE, both of which at least do not directly impact the pacing of the other 3 players. This could be coincidence; my sample size, after all, is only in the couple thousand or so. But I, at least, cannot help but wonder why exactly runs have often gone more smoothly, especially prior to the removal of most defensive and enmity tools among DPS, when a tank refuses to tank and the party continues as a 3-man, than when they continue on but with frequent rants. Is tanking to hostage-taking or entitled timidity as healing is to protected idleness?
That still doesn't make it the norm. Nor, even if it somehow were, would it be okay. The majority of tanks already pull reasonably. The majority of that remainder are getting there. And that there are others who refuse ever to play outside of their narrow "immersive" view of what dungeoning should look like does not make it any less a waste when someone follows their limited example. -
04-24-2020, 08:02 PMShurrikhanLead Dev: They want to provide more efficiency? Better give them more passive mitigation and higher enmity modifiers!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
Intern: But won't the melee want efficiency, too?
Lead Dev: You're right. Let's make sure that the boss can only move sluggishly, with a capped turning speed. To compensate, we'll fatten its hitbox during most mechanics and we'll let it teleport back to where it needs to go for the more rigid ones, leaving an "afterimage", and allow it to melee from up to 30 yalms away. Good work, boys.
I think the dev team and the player base have very different views of "what you provide" means, with the latter view being a whole lot less... limited. -
04-24-2020, 08:23 PMMaxDetroit
Back to the initial question: What do you guys think is the cause of severe lack of Tank users?
I think this thread is a good answer in total to the question. Because everybody has a different opinion what makes a good tank, there are a lot of unwritten rules how to tank, and because the tank is the leading role of the party (tank moves the boss) you are the center of attention for dps and healers. If a dps moves around like crazy or dies or whatever, it doesn't matter that much. If a tank is moving around like crazy or dies, it does matter for the rest of the party very much.
Because of this responsibility, I guess, many players don't want to tank, especially if you get harsh feedback from dps, who know everything better then you, but don't want to take the said reponsibility.
So what I would like to see is more appreciation from dps and healers for people playing tanks, be nice to them, let them do their thing and try to support them, adapt to their playstyle, stop trying to force the tank into playing it your way. Maybe we get more people willing to play as tanks, maybe. -
04-24-2020, 08:45 PMSamRFYes I'm not talking about these scenarios. You probably shouldn't pull more here I agree (except point 3 maybe, depending on the instance difficulty and gear)Quote:
Originally Posted by BarretOblivion
I agree that those extra mobs I pull will be my responsibilty and I will bring the mobs to you so you'll take aggro no matter what during your AoE rotation. If it leads to deaths, then by all means complain and get upset and kick me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BarretOblivion
Like I've said before, healers pulling ahead of tank usually happens in faceroll content where tanks are redundant anyway. -
04-24-2020, 09:29 PMSamRF
Hey Vulcann, how you doing?
You can ask the tank those very same questions. Who are you to decide I'm not allowed to pull more while I keep everyone alive?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcann
It's an arbitrary convention, imo be open minded and adaptable, or don't be, but at least don't complain about it while healer willingly takes the responsibility. -
04-24-2020, 10:44 PMSamRFYeah fair point. I guess I just wish Tank had more responsibility since they have simpler rotations than DPS. I'd be in favor of all roles having (much) more responsibility in normal PUG content but I guess I understand why that isn't the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono
Like many other's have said here, I wonder if lack of responsibility for Tanks is actually the bigger reason for why there's a role shortage. I'm just assuming here but it seems to me people get much faster burnt out on tanking than dps, probably because of the lower skill ceiling or simpler dps rotation. The role might feel a good deal more exciting if you had some more responsibility or had to deal with more complex role specific mechanics.
Idk though Tank and Healer seems to always be in shortage compared to DPS in any game. Perhaps it might have more to do with the fantasy aesthetic and archetype than anything else. I know that for me personally, aesthetic and theme is the most important factor I consider for maining a job or class (in any RPG).