Can we please put Coils of Bahamut in normal raid roulette?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

lI do want to note that I find it interesting you’re proposing that Coil is easy now and that DF could do them... but then in the same breath you bring up how people die to easy mechanics in easier content. You’re kind of defeating your point with that statement.

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You are willingly missing the point I am making then. We already have more punishing fights or at least much more consistently punishing fights. You keep bringing up 24mans, when all my examples have been 8 man content that is executed consistently. While I believe your example, is an attempt to point out how the quality of DF is tooo low, to execute, I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume, you have also been in Copied Factory that didn't wipe on the final boss. I know I did a Day 1 copied factory that didn't wipe on ANY boss in the copied factory. See and that's the thing. This variance fades with time. Coil has been around for over 6 years. Not week 1 like copied factory. It has been nerfed considerably with echo as well on top of mechanic / monster HP nerfs.

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

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So let me get this straight. Your saying that players watching out for one potentially deadly mechanic (not all of them in Coil are actually RAID ENDING or DEADLY anymore ftr) is TOO hard to execute? Orbonne Monastery WAS definitely more mechanics on average then previous 24man raids but please don't sit here with your Echo example, as if NO ONE was beating 24 mans without echo INCLUDING yourself. It's a petty oversimplification that we both obviously know is a lie.

My one example that I took blind FC mates in, that wanted no advice, means nothing apparently when they are my FC mates? You let them figure out the strats on their own but tbh they didn't even see the mechanics as a whole because EVERYTHING DIES TOOO FAST. Did you even read what I said before?

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

You are willingly missing the point I am making then. We already have more punishing fights or at least much more consistently punishing fights. You keep bringing up 24mans, when all my examples have been 8 man content that is executed consistently. While I believe your example, is an attempt to point out how the quality of DF is tooo low, to execute, I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume, you have also been in Copied Factory that didn't wipe on the final boss. I know I did a Day 1 copied factory that didn't wipe on ANY boss in the copied factory. See and that's the thing. This variance fades with time. Coil has been around for over 6 years. Not week 1 like copied factory. It has been nerfed considerably with echo as well on top of mechanic / monster HP nerfs.

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Something that has been around for almost the same amount of times is LotA. How many times RECENTLY have you seen wipes on the first and final bosses? I've seen a few. Heck. People still get killed by meteors on behemoth and have no idea how teh atomos platforms work, or that you can't damage the 2nd boss unless you are a ghost.

I even wiped on the bomb trash recently actually.... Middle bomb went boom.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Something that has been around for almost the same amount of times is LotA. How many times RECENTLY have you seen wipes on the first and final bosses? I've seen a few. Heck. People still get killed by meteors on behemoth and have no idea how teh atomos platforms work, or that you can't damage the 2nd boss unless you are a ghost.

I even wiped on the bomb trash recently actually.... Middle bomb went boom.

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You are 100% correct. This still happens to this very day and yet that further proves my point. These fights are still allowed to be a part of DF Roulette. Eden Normal and 012N, Alexander Normal, people STILL wipe to and vote abandon, AND ARE STILL part of Duty Roulette. That argument against coil is invalid. There are current examples of fights that came much later after coil, with similar mechanics, that were tuned for story mode and people STILL wipe. It's high time people realize to stop locking out coils as if it was some plague despite the fact it has been nerfed to the ground.

Hell going off your example, LotA has also been nerfed since it got implemented, and you literally can beat all of these fights by just attacking, no mechanic matters, sans meteor PLACEMENT, not even if it wipes 2 alliances is it outright a wipe.

I guarantee, that if coil had been released in it's current form, as the tier's normal raid, people would have been doing it no differently than any current story content.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

You are 100% correct. This still happens to this very day and yet that further proves my point. These fights are still allowed to be a part of DF Roulette. Eden Normal and 012N, Alexander Normal, people STILL wipe to and vote abandon, AND ARE STILL part of Duty Roulette. That argument against coil is invalid. There are current examples of fights that came much later after coil, with similar mechanics, that were tuned for story mode and people STILL wipe. It's high time people realize to stop locking out coils as if it was some plague despite the fact it has been nerfed to the ground.

I guarantee, that if coil had been released in it's current form, as the tier's normal raid, people would have been doing it no differently than any current story content.

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The argument isn’t invalid. Because you’re advocating to put in harder, more punishing content into a Roulette when people cannot even perform the easier, not punishing content. You’re defeating your own argument when you bring up how people wipe to easy content—because it proves more that people will wipe to Coil (what with it being harder than the easy content). Or, they’ll just leave the Roulette the moment one of them pops. You see this already with Alliance Roulette when anything other than LotA or ST pop, and Mentor Roulette when an EX primal pops.

When people are more willing to take a 30-minute penalty than do the content, perhaps then you’d understand why these don’t belong in Raid Roulette. A 30-minute penalty would be shorter than attempting to talk people through how to do Nael or Phoenix or Bahamut Prime.

You think the content is easy, and are of the mind that everyone else will see them to be as easy as you see them; and that is where your argument is flawed, because I can guarantee they won’t. The skill of the playerbase has far more variance than you are wanting to acknowledge. Just because you may be a skilled player doesn’t mean that everyone else is. I don’t think any of the Coil fights are hard either—but I’ve seen people struggle with the mechanics UNSYNCED. I’m sure they would struggle with them synced as well.

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I guarantee, that if coil had been released in it's current form, as the tier's normal raid, people would have been doing it no differently than any current story content.

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As someone who only did Coil after it was "nerfed into the ground" (read: after 60 cap and echo was added) AND with a mostly-fc party (not that we're pro or anything, but I place more trust in them than I would with DF randoms), I still gotta say it was way harder for me to win that at +10 levels higher than its intended level, than any story mode 8-man raid they've introduced since at its intended level.

Not everything in Coil was THAT hard, but the stuff that was still kicked my face in for a while. I distinctly remember not even wanting to think about what some of these fights were like at 50 (even with echo), and I still don't.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

You are 100% correct. This still happens to this very day and yet that further proves my point. These fights are still allowed to be a part of DF Roulette. Eden Normal and 012N, Alexander Normal, people STILL wipe to and vote abandon, AND ARE STILL part of Duty Roulette. That argument against coil is invalid. There are current examples of fights that came much later after coil, with similar mechanics, that were tuned for story mode and people STILL wipe. It's high time people realize to stop locking out coils as if it was some plague despite the fact it has been nerfed to the ground.

Hell going off your example, LotA has also been nerfed since it got implemented, and you literally can beat all of these fights by just attacking, no mechanic matters, sans meteor PLACEMENT, not even if it wipes 2 alliances is it outright a wipe.

I guarantee, that if coil had been released in it's current form, as the tier's normal raid, people would have been doing it no differently than any current story content.

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Stop comparing instances like the 24-man and NM 8-man raids to coil raids. There isn't any. T5, T9, and T13 will own synced pugs like no one's business. Anyone who feels different either has not done coils, or seriously has way too much faith in a community who cries for nerfs for far less punishing instances.

Don't get me wrong, there are some NM 8-man and Alliance raid bosses that don't mess around and are definitely a step up, but a lot of screw ups can happen and players will still get a clear. This is not the case with harder coil fights. There will be a lot of resets; a lot of frustration; and a lot of tears.

I will agree that coils is an awesome story and that it sucks that players have to get some unsynced help to simply muscle through them in order to experience it, but this is what lead to getting NM versions in the first place. But SE would have to rework some of coils to make them viable for roulettes, without question. I'd be happy if they did so, many others would not.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

T11-> Keep adds away from each other is hard? How do people do it then in Thordan, Crown of the Immaculate Normal, The Final Steps of Faith, Sophia Normal. People get one shoted by Cauterize from Midgardsomr, two shoted by M/F in O12N and one shotted by Titan Knockbacks or Leviathan floor destruction for bad positioning ALL the time.

The fact I'm trying to point out which is the major flaw of this counter argument is that EQUALLY PUNISHING mechanics or more consistently punishing mechanics exist in current normal raids ALREADY. No one in this entire thread has tried to refute that point and quite literally can not.

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There are several extra mechanics to consider in T11. During the add phase, the tanks not only have to keep their adds away from each other, but also from the egg add that goes wherever the hell it pleases. In addition, the egg (and eventually the boss) will require players to be at close range to damage them. Don't expect random DF parties to catch onto these important mechanics consistently.

I've only ever done Coils unsynced... and I can even see just off that how bad of an idea this is.

It would be like adding Alexander or Omega savage to the roulette. The mechanics are harder and more demanding than anything else currently in the roulette, and unlike the other roulette options where getting hit by a mechanic will hurt, but not guarantee you die, getting hit by mechanics in Coils, even when I was doing them level 60 unsynced, was still death. Even some mechanics now at level 80 unsynced will still kill you.

If you think that people can do this in a roulette, you have much more faith in both the skill level of our players overall, and the patience of the people who get into these roulettes to actually complete them than I do.

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

There are several extra mechanics to consider in T11. During the add phase, the tanks not only have to keep their adds away from each other, but also from the egg add that goes wherever the hell it pleases. In addition, the egg (and eventually the boss) will require players to be at close range to damage them. Don't expect random DF parties to catch onto these important mechanics consistently.

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To add on even more, the adds must also die at the same time, or else the one still alive will make a mad dash for the egg, fuse and gain a massive health and damage buff (aka wipe. I believe it will also spam Object 199)... oh AND THEN you must always stay within melee range of Kaliya after the add phase, otherwise you deal 0 damage. I still see Casters/Ranged DPS attacking the wrong boss in Void Ark (the one where one will gain magic immunity and the other ranged DPS immunity), so I fully expect DF rando's to do the same here (the tethers will probably cause wipes, too. Since if your partner dies, you also die).

If any Coil fights were to ever end up in Normal-Raid roulette, it would be T1, maybe T2 (Allagan Rot might be spooky and I doubt newbies these days know of the enrage strat), T4 and maybe T6. The Turns not mentioned are just too much for a random DF group. Maybe once on a blue moon you'll get the perfect team, but that's not as likely as getting at least one person who is uncooperative (and let's not forget that every fight in Coil has an enrage timer).

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Originally Posted by MeanDragon

I guess it just took a few knocks over the head to see the light.

I understand what everyone is saying now. I experienced Garuda EX last night by queuing up in the duty finder and we wiped a few times before we got the mechanics down. And Paladinleeds saying Geruda is the EASY one puts it in a different perspective. I can see that you don't want a group of inexperienced players doing that in unknown party.

I just don't want to miss out on content. I love this game and I want to experience all of it.

The Coils themselves have some good story in them but I don't want to rush through it.

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it's very easy now, when you check the average item level game wants you to have to might start to understand why, it also has echo and expansion nerfs.