Let's Theorize a 5.1 Balance Patch.

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Originally Posted by Miralyth

-rDPS tax for vercure

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Are you serious? Vercure currently heals for 16,5k hp on my rdm, while I have 82k hp. The heal is so low, that you will never use it on anybody else then yourself and if you for some reason use it on somebody else, then the "tax" is the dps you lost because you had to cast a weak heal for some reason. Vercure is used:
a) to procc duelcast during downtime, which every half decent rdm does anyway, so it's already included in rdm's (low) dps
b) if you mess up mechanics to heal yourself, if you know you would die otherwise. In that case it's our version of the shield/healing skills almost every dps has. If you want to tax that, then we should also talk about taxing manaward from blm.

At everyone latching onto my inclusion of vercure:

I included it because I didn't want to spend an incredibly long post convincing people the merits and demerits of every utility in the game. I wanted the post to be simple. I agree that vercure is next to worthless for Savage. At best it can top off a ranged job that got back too late for AoE heals if the healer was asleep / ranged was too slow (or some similar situation). I also think curing waltz, warden's paean, improvisation, and phoenix heal are basically useless (or unreliable at best) and just more excuses to give utility jobs bloat to tax them over.

And no, casting vercure is not the only tax for vercure. It's a massive part of it, just like spending MP on raise is. But you have the option to help fix someone else's mistake, and other DPS don't. Please don't act like it's completely non-existent and offers you nothing other DPS don't have. There's a damn good reason not every other job in the game can cast a moderately good heal at their discretion. It's almost entirely useless in Savage, but it's game-changing in content like Eureka and dungeons. The developers will never let this go, even if someone like me who mentions it in an online forum thinks it's stupid for Savage and hurting RDM's balance. If you don't want to be taxed for it, convince them to take it away from you. It's really, really powerful in casual content and the devs obviously care a ton about that.

Edit: I will edit the balance post and provide better notes on vercure.

SMN:
Mainly want to see them reduce the cooldown times on tri so we don't have to hard cast our dots at any point. Miasma is a pain in the *rear* when it has to be hard cast because you can't *move* during the cast and if you have to avoid an aoe your dot timings get out of sync.

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Originally Posted by Miralyth

At everyone latching onto my inclusion of vercure:

I included it because I didn't want to spend an incredibly long post convincing people the merits and demerits of every utility in the game. I wanted the post to be simple. I agree that vercure is next to worthless for Savage. At best it can top off a ranged job that got back too late for AoE heals if the healer was asleep / ranged was too slow (or some similar situation). I also think curing waltz, warden's paean, improvisation, and phoenix heal are basically useless (or unreliable at best) and just more excuses to give utility jobs bloat to tax them over.

And no, casting vercure is not the only tax for vercure. It's a massive part of it, just like spending MP on raise is. But you have the option to help fix someone else's mistake, and other DPS don't. Please don't act like it's completely non-existent and offers you nothing other DPS don't have. There's a damn good reason not every other job in the game can cast a moderately good heal at their discretion. It's almost entirely useless in Savage, but it's game-changing in content like Eureka and dungeons. The developers will never let this go, even if someone like me who mentions it in an online forum thinks it's stupid for Savage and hurting RDM's balance. If you don't want to be taxed for it, convince them to take it away from you. It's really, really powerful in casual content and the devs obviously care a ton about that.

Edit: I will edit the balance post and provide better notes on vercure.

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Classes shouldn't be balanced in regards to casual content and you severly overestimate it's usage in any group related content.Whenever a healer is involved it's never optimal to cast vercure(low potency, takes a gcd) The only content in which it's superior to other dps selfheal/shield skills is hoh and potd.
And people jumped on you because for some reason you mentioned vercure as the only "non-damage supportskill", which needs some kind of tax.
What about tactitian? A 10% damage reduce for 15sec for the whole group is way more useful in savage content then vercure and yet you don't even mention this skill in your "tax-list"
Aside from rezz and vercure you only want to tax offensive supportive skills, which seems pretty arbitrary imo.

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Originally Posted by Scryar

Classes shouldn't be balanced in regards to casual content and you severly overestimate it's usage in any group related content.Whenever a healer is involved it's never optimal to cast vercure(low potency, takes a gcd) The only content in which it's superior to other dps selfheal/shield skills is hoh and potd.
And people jumped on you because for some reason you mentioned vercure as the only "non-damage supportskill", which needs some kind of tax.
What about tactitian? A 10% damage reduce for 15sec for the whole group is way more useful in savage content then vercure and yet you don't even mention this skill in your "tax-list"
Aside from rezz and vercure you only want to tax offensive supportive skills, which seems pretty arbitrary imo.

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I agree with you that jobs shouldn't be balanced toward casual content. I told you as much. But vercure is unique in how profound its impact on casual content can be, and it needs to change if the developers are going to balance around it. I'm not saying this because it's my personal opinion, I'm saying it because I think that's how the developers would react.

I overestimate vercure as much as I overestimate second wind in Savage: both have saved my life on multiple occasions (with the vercure not being cast by me). Are they necessary in perfect runs? Nope. Are they useful in most runs? Nope. Are they useful some times when something goes wrong? Yep. Except vercure is at-will. You can't compare the loss of a GCD to a 2-minute cooldown.

I concede it was dumb of me to single out vercure by mention (though it was wholly unintentional). My mistake was that I mentioned vercure by name and neglected to mention other utility by name. I said in the same category, "-rDPS tax b/c of various utility and mobility (BRD/DNC)", so no, I didn't single out vercure as the only non-damage support that needs tax. I singled it out by name.

Wait, nope. I included mantra as well.

The tactician/troubadour/samba argument is a bit tired. Addle and feint exist; in exchange for only affecting magical/physical respectively, they have half the cooldown. Addle, in particular, is potentially better than tactician in many fights.

And once again, no, I don't want to tax only offensive supportive skills. Not only did I mention mantra and both raises, I said "utility skills" for BRD/DNC. I left 10% aiming reduction out of it because I also left feint and addle out of it.

I can tell you're passionate about this vercure bit, but please try not to misread what I wrote because you're angry at me for including it.

Edit: I forgot to reply to your mention of healers being involved. A RDM can replace a healer if they die in casual content and keep the group going. The closest any other DPS comes is SMN, who can raise the healer and hope chaos doesn't ensue in the meantime.

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Originally Posted by zonol

YES SQUARE ENIX LISTEN TO THIS GUY PLEASE DAMN HOW HARD IS IT TO READ AND LISTEN TO THR PLAYERS. This is 100% how the order should be! Sam-blm-mch-mnk-smn. But we all know they won’t listen or care. Specially when yoshi mains blm. Lmao the creator is 2nd to none!

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Please don't listen to this guy. The idea of "taxing" smn or mnk this hard in personal/raid dps because of "utility" while also leaving them some of the busiest classes in the game (a problem also facing Nin still, even after these adjustments) is absurd.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

Please don't listen to this guy. The idea of "taxing" smn or mnk this hard in personal/raid dps because of "utility" while also leaving them some of the busiest classes in the game (a problem also facing Nin still, even after these adjustments) is absurd.

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I listed MNK and SMN as second highest in rDPS and highest pDPS behind the selfish jobs. I don't know what you're on about. Also balancing jobs around difficulty (which is extremely subjective) is "absurd." I personally find BLM is the most difficult job in the game and refuse to play it in serious content because of the stress it causes me, but tons of people would disagree. Meanwhile, I'm fine with SMN and MNK (or I was in SB, I haven't bothered getting MNK to 80 yet).

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Originally Posted by zonol

YES SQUARE ENIX LISTEN TO THIS GUY PLEASE DAMN HOW HARD IS IT TO READ AND LISTEN TO THR PLAYERS. This is 100% how the order should be! Sam-blm-mch-mnk-smn. But we all know they won’t listen or care. Specially when yoshi mains blm. Lmao the creator is 2nd to none!

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Just keep in mind thats pdps order... most people argue over rdps though.

Tho the list is agreeable, most will be exasperated to see that its putting NIN near the top in the rdps part. People are jaded by past meta.

Hooray for people who say RDM is slightly better at casual content than most so it needs to suck in raid content. I guess the job only exists to fix other people's mistakes; the healer for people who don't want the responsibility of being the main healer.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Hooray for people who say RDM is slightly better at casual content than most so it needs to suck in raid content. I guess the job only exists to fix other people's mistakes; the healer for people who don't want the responsibility of being the main healer.

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No one is saying this. Your post is hyperbole. The closest anyone came to saying anything like this was me explaining why I think the developers have an issue with it, and have said multiple times I personally think it's a non-issue. Posts like the one you just made, that take things out of context and exaggerate, only hurt discussion.