[Spoilers] I’m irrevocably Unimpressed

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

more words for sure

I can't wait until we see the devlopment, rather the end of this specific storyline. I think we will eventually regain our memories from that time, obviously we will keep living as we are, but it will further serve to 'humanize' the ascians, and what we all once were. I hope we actually end up killing both of the primals. Until they are dead we will never be the masters of our own destiny. It looks like Hydaelyn just keeps plucking our soul specifically and making it her champion over and over. I would rather stop that cycle.

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There's no reason to kill Hydaelyn. I wanted to fight her before ShB but ShB has convinced me she's in the right. The WoL only has to be a thing because of ascian schemes. Hydaelyn does not interfere in human affairs any more than necessary, in fact when was the last time we even heard her voice? Compare that to zodiark who demands sacrifices and tempers people.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

That's the whole point.

Apart from the fact that it still amazes me we were even able to dent that thing, I cried pretty hard when he said "remember us.... remember that we one lived".
I wanted to take his hands and tell him "Trust us, we will not squander your sacrifice." and then give him a hug until he dissipates.

Ascians are not evil in the strictest sense of the word. Their macciavellian approach may appear evil to us, since we lesser races get the short end of the stick in order to bring their civilization back but their motives are completely understandable. They had a great civilization with strict ethics. Desparation, and unfathomable suffering turned Emet-Selch cruel though he wasn't heartless about it. It is clear it weighed heavily on his conscience but he saw no other way to undo what had been done.

The more important question we have to ask: would the Ascian civilization look like what we saw in Amauroth post Zodiark? How would them being his thralls affect things?

I REALLY hope that they find another solution for Elidibus than us just whacking him too. There has to be a possibility for some form of compromize.

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Good post. The only thing I’d quibble over is ‘thralls’, as tempering in this case seems to manifest a bit differently to the usual mindless slavishness we’re accustomed to - I’d further add those who summoned Hydaelyn are also no doubt tempered by her and we’ve seen that Light aspecting alone is no proofing against corruption at all.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The interview answers all of your questions, though. You implied that it was 'concerning' that people believed the Ascians and felt sympathy for their plight. It isn't concerning at all by any measure because...it's fiction. It's really that simple. You're free to read into it as you so please, though so too are others and the lead developer intended the character in question to be a tragic and sympathetic figure. I'd say it proved to be quite the success.

The motives and history of various characters and factions is what makes a story fascinating to me. I enjoy compiling the facts and figuring out why they do what they do - and compelling antagonists are in abundance in FFXIV and the series as a whole.

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So your answers to the actual questions I asked, that being to explain "the 'nuance' in the wholesale genocide of countless peoples in the pursuit of the possible resurrection of a dead race" and "the nuance in 'She [Hydaelyn] simply cannot be trusted. She's a Primal. A false deity. A parasite to be cut out so that the reins of history can be firmly placed into the hands of man for better or for worse'", are "it's fiction" and "I enjoy compiling the facts and figuring out why they do what they do - and compelling antagonists are in abundance in FFXIV and the series as a whole", then? At least I can only presume such given that the first sentence of your post goes against my request and actual implication to answer my questions in your own words. In that case, I call those non-answers. You argue for nuance and fall back to "it's fiction". You say that you enjoy compiling the facts and figuring out why these antagonists do what they do, and yet cannot put in your words your interpretation of their reasons.

Furthermore, I implied that it's concerning that people can see the Ascians' reasons for genocide and think them as just and worth supporting, as seen by the preceding sarcastic statement in that post. Whether that they feel sympathy to their plight or not was worth concern was in now way implied.

In any case, I am disinclined to continue this as you've proven with your posts your unwillingness or inability to actually answer questions without obfuscation (by giving the developers' answer instead of your own) and deflection (by failing to actually answer the questions in a meaningful manner).

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Edgy teenager post. They want to genocide entire planets. Yes they're evil and yes they need to die.

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They want to genocide entire planets. No they're not evil (neither good though) and yes they need to die.

Their plight is sympathetic, relatable, and absolutely opposite and unreconcilable with ours. Basically what makes a good villain.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

By engaging with a fictional narrative, you're accepting that it's "real" within the bounds of the story - in which case it's only natural to apply your thoughts on real morality to the characters' actions. It's how we define heroes and villains (or lack thereof) within a story - we judge them by the same criteria we would if real people acted the way they do.

It's one thing to say "I can see why the character acted this way even if I don't approve of their actions" and even empathise with them because of that, but that's not the same thing as condoning it because it's "only fiction".

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Yes but in a fictional setting, purely for the sake of curiosity, you may want to see how one side winning plays out. Fantasy is a form of escapism in the end.

I don’t consider the Ascians malevolent based on the info we presently have but if I were on the receiving end of their actions in the real world I would be opposed to them - on the other hand, it does not mean I think they don’t have a valid argument in this case. So I’d be more than happy to play on their team in a game.

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Originally Posted by Edax

And yet it is abundantly clear that the sundering of their world into 13 was their own doing. There's plenty of reason to think this "Utopia" would just repeat history and sundering into 13 again if it were restored. Emet is deluded, viewing his own people with dangerously rose-tinted glasses.



I don't think you even have a basic idea of what literature is. You're supposed to be concerned when you read 1984. You're supposed to be concerned when you read It Can't Happen Here. Your not suppose to disregard these books simply because they are fiction.

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I like to think of it like this:

Universe: Time to go Ascians

Ascians: No we will not go
*summons Zodiark*

Universe:...alright if thats how you want to play fine.

Opposed to Zodiark: *summons Hydalean*

*Hydalean beats Zodiark shattering the source*

Universe: Now you can spend enternity looking at a fragmented world you little brats.

Ascians: We will fix it you jerk!!

Universe: If you even close to fixing it I will just put the smack down on you again.

Ascians: *destroys 7 shards*

Universe: Here we go again

*Warrior of light shows up and spanks acsians*

Ascians: NOT FAIR!!! *CRIES*

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

They want to genocide entire planets. No they're not evil (neither good though) and yes they need to die.

Their plight is sympathetic, relatable, and absolutely opposite and unreconcilable with ours. Basically what makes a good villain.

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That's my view on it as well. You understand where they're coming from while also seeing the horror behind it and that there can be no reconciliation between the two extremes. The people that live now need to die so that the people who lived in the past might be revived. There's no compromise there. Especially not when the Ascians have given their cause further credence by viewing the lives they snuff out as pale reflections, unworthy of even the most basic of rights and consideration.

The Ascians are interesting precisely because of how human this all feels. Most people would deny it but if pushed into a similar situation they absolutely would at the very least entertain taking the same route. Let alone come to see it as just after eons of misery. That doesn't make them /right/ though or genocide any less wrong. You can sympathize with villains while also denouncing their plans.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Good post. The only thing I’d quibble over is ‘thralls’, as tempering in this case seems to manifest a bit differently to the usual mindless slavishness we’re accustomed to - I’d further add those who summoned Hydaelyn are also no doubt tempered by her and we’ve seen that Light aspecting alone is no proofing against corruption at all.

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Well we have no data on that. I think it ultimately depends on the nature of the primal how the enthralled people turn out to be.
For all intents and purposes, we are thralls to Haydelyn right now. Whether she misused that power is the real question.

Does Zodiark actually hunger for more life energy? Would he instigate calamities in order to gain? Or are they merely giving him the energy he needs to do stuff they want with him feeling indifferent about it?

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Well we have bo data on that. I think it ultimately depends on the nature of the primal how the enthralled people turn out to be.
For all intents and purposes, we are thralls to Haydelyn right now. Whether she misused that power is the real question.

Does Zodiark actually hunger for more life energy? Would he instigate calamities in order to gain? Or are they merely giving him the energy he needs to do stuff they want with him feeling indifferent about it?

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All good questions. From the current notes it kind of seems implicated that there is something amiss with Zodiark. The first 2 of the 3 sacrifices seem... logical, perhaps even noble. But then the planned 3rd to resore the population seems strangely out of character compared to the previous ones (unless all 3 was pre-planned?).

I don't think its been mentioned what sort of life they would cultivate for the 3rd sacrifice. If its anything sentient, its back to the good ol' black and white story though (they didn't have the shard excuse back then). Which I would prefer they didn't...

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

I like to think of it like this:

Universe: Time to go Ascians

Ascians: No we will not go
*summons Zodiark*

Universe:...alright if thats how you want to play fine.

Opposed to Zodiark: *summons Hydalean*

*Hydalean beats Zodiark shattering the source*

Universe: Now you can spend enternity looking at a fragmented world you little brats.

Ascians: We will fix it you jerk!!

Universe: If you even close to fixing it I will just put the smack down on you again.

Ascians: *destroys 7 shards*

Universe: Here we go again

*Warrior of light shows up and spanks acsians*

Ascians: NOT FAIR!!! *CRIES*

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Except it was the Ascians or whatever they were called who summoned Hydaelyn. They caused their own conflict because they were already a house divided.