Black magic...kinda sucks

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Originally Posted by Malkria

But now, after being tired of being told I am a 'he' I guess I'm playing the victim card by pointing out that I am a woman.

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None of which has anything to do with the discussion at hand, so you can put your victim card away.

There are nuances of the job that you aren't going to get until you hit 70. As it is, a lot of jobs after SB's arrival are incomplete until you hit 70. Still, I stand by my suggestion that if the turret aspect of BLM feels off or doesn't work for you, try one of the other casters and see if that fits your playstyle more.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

None of which has anything to do with the discussion at hand, so you can put your victim card away.

There are nuances of the job that you aren't going to get until you hit 70. As it is, a lot of jobs after SB's arrival are incomplete until you hit 70. Still, I stand by my suggestion that if the turret aspect of BLM feels off or doesn't work for you, try one of the other casters and see if that fits your playstyle more.

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If there are "nuances of the job you aren't going to get until you hit 70" (which by the way I have)...then when you say as far as you have gotten is lvl 30 how would you know how right or wrong I am? Because everyone else is saying so? As for the victim card, I went 7 pages before I corrected anyone, but because I have now suddenly I am playing the victim because I got tired of everyone reffering me to a he? Right...or is it because the implication is that talking to a woman as so many of you have is somehow worse then talking to a guy, and now that I revealed I am a woman you are trying to cover your arse?

If your argument is that I just don't know the job, when you yourself have admitted you have played the job less then me, then shouldn't by your logic you be staying out of this? So either you are admitting you can have an opinion about a job before 70, that you are simply parroting others here, or that you are a hypocrite. Which is it, or is it 'D' and all of the above?

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Originally Posted by Malkria

If there are "nuances of the job you aren't going to get until you hit 70" (which by the way I have)...then when you say as far as you have gotten is lvl 30 how would you know how right or wrong I am? Because everyone else is saying so? As for the victim card, I went 7 pages before I corrected anyone, but because I have now suddenly I am playing the victim because I got tired of everyone reffering me to a he? Right...or is it because the implication is that talking to a woman as so many of you have is somehow worse then talking to a guy, and now that I revealed I am a woman you are trying to cover your arse?

If your argument is that I just don't know the job, when you yourself have admitted you have played the job less then me, then shouldn't by your logic you be staying out of this? So either you are admitting you can have an opinion about a job before 70, that you are simply parroting others here, or that you are a hypocrite. Which is it, or is it 'D' and all of the above?

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I won't speak for others, but I specifically never called you a he or she. I responded directly to you, not in third person. With that said, I think correcting them once would have been enough. If they change their opinion based on your gender, that's a them problem and something they would need to deal with. Back on topic, I'm reading KaivaC's comments as a generalization (as in, several jobs don't fully flesh out until 70), not BLM specific. However, if KaivaC was trying to talk about BLM, and is not 70, my opinion would be the same for them as it is for you. Until there is extensive experience, I'd defer to the more experienced person as they've been playing it through several iterations, and thus have more of a baseline to make suggestions. Not to say you shouldn't be expressing your opinion, just that I wouldn't put much weight in it. Yes, this holds true for me as well as I'm just getting around to having BLM be my main, so I have a long way to go in learning all the nuances before offering suggestions.

Level isn't a measure of proficiency.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

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I honestly could care less what your gender is. My response to you would've been the same. RL gender has absolutely no bearing here in regards to this discussion.

I'll state again, most jobs are not fully complete until they hit 70, due to the changes that SB brought across the board. Based on the posts you've been leaving, the core function of BLM, which is to minimize movement as much as possible, conflicts with your playstyle. Which is why I suggested that you should try out SMN or RDM and see if those fit your style instead. It doesn't take a genius to try a job and give it a reasonable amount of time in close-to-relevant content to try and see a little bit of what you're coming from. You are wanting BLM to fit into a role that it just isn't designed for. Less time on a job does not mean that I can't pick up on a lot of things in a very short amount of time. My opinion is my own and I stand by what I say - but I do point out that other far more experienced BLMs have indeed pointed out flaws in many of your posts and I feel like they do have a point as well.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

Until there is extensive experience, I'd defer to the more experienced person as they've been playing it through several iterations, and thus have more of a baseline to make suggestions. Not to say you shouldn't be expressing your opinion, just that I wouldn't put much weight in it. Yes, this holds true for me as well as I'm just getting around to having BLM be my main, so I have a long way to go in learning all the nuances before offering suggestions.

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Which in turn is flawed for various reasons. Already I have had people telling me that Heavensward or 4.1 BLM had it much worse then it is currently at. While that may be true, it doesn't change the fact that the isuess being discussed are how the job is played TODAY. That also negates a new person who may not be a 'veteran' of the job, but still is a vital source of feedback because a new perspective might be overlooked by someone who is used to a certain way of doing things. That would be like ignoring the feedback of new blood in your workplace because "well that just isn't how things are done" even though said feedback might very well make things better in whatever regards. Third...just because things work again does not mean it is a good design. Just because something is functional does not mean it is a good design, these two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Finally, the biggest fallacy of this argument is that it would me we should always defer to the person with the most experience, but that in itself is dangerous logic because just because someone has been playing longer does not automatically translate to a better understanding of a game or even game design. For all you the dissenting voice could have years of experience outside of said game either as a "professional" gamer, game designer, reviewer, or any other job that requires critical thought of how a game is put together. Even if they didn't, depending on their background of games played with a diverse enough history they could still have just as valid a critical eye as those who have a more professional take of the matter. So simply going by "Well they have played more then you, so they know more" is actually not a good worldview to take, in any part of one's life. That is why we have critical thinking skills (or we should hopefully).

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Originally Posted by Menriq

I'm reading KaivaC's comments as a generalization (as in, several jobs don't fully flesh out until 70), not BLM specific.

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Except he literally called me out to say that it was because of me and THIS thread that he was even taking an interest in the job, going so far as to cite playtime in the PoTD as in his eyes negating my argument. So again, going by your logic he shouldn't be weighing in. So either his viewpoint is valid despite less experience then me in the job, his argument is based on parroting others in regards to this job, or he is a hypocrite. By specifically stating I don't understand the nuances, he is inferring that even with less experience and less time spent in the class he is able to understand the fundamentals of the job and how it is meant to be played. In which case I could turn around and use the argument made against me in that he hasn't hit 70 and isn't as experienced in the job so he doesn't know what he is talking about. Which in turn is demonstrating all the fallacy I was pointing out above.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Level isn't a measure of proficiency.

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Which flies in the face of everything people were telling me in the beginning in that I hadn't gotten to 70 and thus couldn't make an accurate judgment on the job. Funny how that works now that you have someone who is less the 70, and who agrees with your stance, how suddenly level doesn't matter for knowing the 'nuances' of this job.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Which flies in the face of everything people were telling me in the beginning in that I hadn't gotten to 70 and thus couldn't make an accurate judgment on the job. Funny how that works now that you have someone who is less the 70, and who agrees with your stance, how suddenly level doesn't matter for knowing the 'nuances' of this job.

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I ain't everyone.

Level is not a measure of proficiency. It doesn't take much to figure this out. Understanding and execution are two different things, but neither is related to level, and barely related to the leveling process, as is readily apparent.

You know what measures proficiency?

Proficiency.

How can you tell who's proficient at Black Mage? You take the aggregate data available and look at who does the best of them. Most actions taken, most damage dealt, most uptime, least damage taken, amount of single buffs received, etc.

Even if every single black mage was playing it wrong, the one sitting on top is still the best one of the dumpster. High Level Black Mage play is about taking the simple mechanics presented and working them in an environment that seems antithetical to the Black Mage's existence.

That's the point of the job. There's no shame in going elsewhere if that's not your stick.

YoshiP has said in interviews that BLM is meant to be a complex job. It's the one he plays and he said specifically he doesn't want it overly simplified. And that's fine. We have lots of jobs specifically so we can have different play styles and different levels of complexity. BLM is on the higher end.

If the job play style doesn't line up with your play style, that's fine. Just play something else. But it doesn't mean BLM sucks. They're also helping it movement wise next patch, so there's that.

I'm also not sure why this thread has gotten so hostile. It's just an opinion of a job. No need to bring personalities or anything else into it.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Finally, the biggest fallacy of this argument is that it would me we should always defer to the person with the most experience, but that in itself is dangerous logic because just because someone has been playing longer does not automatically translate to a better understanding of a game or even game design.

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So who do you trust for understanding the game design? Because you do not seem to agree with anyone here.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

I'm also not sure why this thread has gotten so hostile. It's just an opinion of a job. No need to bring personalities or anything else into it.

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I guess people miss arguing with a certain someone xD

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Originally Posted by P_Wing

So who do you trust for understanding the game design? Because you do not seem to agree with anyone here.

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They don't have to agree when its an opinion. Walls of text won't change that.