Is this truly wrong?

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Originally Posted by Dzian

The issue is that a good portion of what makes a difference between one percentile and another isn't the player it's the party... You can take a take for example the 100th percentile player and put him in a group of randoms and his performance will be no where even close to that 100th percentile.

There's so many things that fflogs doesn't tell you that can have a significant impact on your performance. And a lot of them can be as simple as which direction is the boss facing or where is the boss being tanked?. A badly positioned boss might mean you have 10% less uptime. A boss thats constantly being turned might cost you a significant amount of positional bonuses.

A party member that's stood right next to you might then force you to move and lose cast time where if he was in a better position you wouldn't have to move... lost gcds..

Badly stacked ground aoes can make the difference between taking 2 steps to get out of or taking 7 or 8.. lost gcds.

That player with the stack marker forcing everyone to move away from the boss to stack on him instead of him running to the group on the boss.. more lost gcds

There are quite literally an almost endless number of things that can really impact performance none of which are ever represented in fflogs...

Then you have things like other party members and how well they use there buffs. Is chain start being applies with foe and trick attack muliplying the damage boosts quite heavily or are they all being used sporadically at random intervals.

All of these things might slash your performance in half and there's absolutely nothing you can do to control it.

Player percentiles are essentially worthless. Because it's generally the entire group that makes that number what it is. You could take a 10th percentile player put hi in a 100th percentile group and guarantee he'll do better even if he plays exactly the same....

And like I said at the start. Take a 100th player put him in a 10th group and his performance will be nowhere close..

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I do agree that composition and skill with affect the percentile a player can reach, but I do strongly disagree with the statement that looking at a percentile is completely worthless too.

It's up to the individuals looking at the logs to see where they can improve and where they're doing well. A percentile gives that player two things: (1) a range of where they are in terms of skill level with the rest of the player base in the same content and (2) gives them a metric / goalpost to aim for.

Also, a 80th percentile player playing in a group that is a 20th percentile skill won't suddenly make their DPS bottom out at the 20th percentile. It'll dip, yes, but I don't believe it'll dip further than a +/-10 percentile range. That's still a sizable gap but it doesn't make things worthless. A highly skilled player will be able to make non-optimal conditions work for them and can adapt to optimize for the conditions they've been given.

Who gives a shit; it's Sigmascape normal. As far as I'm concerned, if you can actually do the mechs that automatically places you in 99th percentile. (I say this not knowing how fflogs works, nor do I care; it's mostly just a site for people looking to flaunt their e-peens anyway)

*grumbles at people still multi-wiping and abandoning O7N just earlier today*
*gave zero shits about how much damage myself or any of them were doing; doesn't even matter if you can't survive the fight*

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Originally Posted by Dzian

And like I said at the start. Take a 100th player put him in a 10th group and his performance will be nowhere close..

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The way you guys are saying things imply comp/kill time is all that factors when it comes to percentiles, which...Is not true at all.

This is from a O5S clear party that I helped yesterday. DPS wasn't very flattering and we didn't have meta comp. As can be seen here 3 people were into the orange/purple zone (even more props to the healers since we had deaths). First and foremost, player skill is the biggest factor when it comes to percentile. Secondly, I'd say it's gear, and then finally group/overall group performance.

Inconsistent groups may lead to deaths, and if you die certainly your percentile is going to be affected - on that end, I can definitely agree that bad PUGs can cause FFLogs to not have an accurate representation of your performance. But if you're pugging and the run is relatively clean for YOU(i.e no deaths, damage down debuffs caused by other people etc), then most of your performance relies entirely on yourself.

A player that can generally perform at a decent level on average is NOT going to have their numbers crushed due to external circumstances or comp alone.

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Originally Posted by Mayku

I was Ast and a Mch who parsed complained I did 400dps when the sch did 2000dps, he said he could do 2500dps "easy" as a whm.

I left sad, I am a healer I want to first heal, do mech, then buff, then dps...
A friend went to FFlogs and saw that I did 91% of the heals with less overheals than the sch.

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Well first, try not to be sad about it. It wasn't a good experience, but we all have to remember this is a game.

Second, the SCH saying he can do 2500 on WHM "easy" isn't really relevant if you are playing AST. AST personal DPS capability is a lot lower than WHM...but....

While it is true the group matters and also how much healing you do, as a main AST myself who does savage on it... 400 DPS is way way lower than you should be doing with the gear you have. Even if you heal a lot or have to eve raise sometimes you should still be hitting 1000+ at least.

Doing 400 means you weren't really putting in any effort to DPS much at all. Demon does have high consistent damage, but there are times where you can throw quite a bit of healer DPS at him when he isn't doing much.

Having 400 at the end while dying to enrage means you aren't utilizing the time you had to DPS effectively. People can do the same HPS as you while doing 1000 more DPS which is where the critique would come from about your 400 DPS: You can do the same HPS, but do way more than 400 DPS all at the same time.

If it is beyond your current skill at AST to do higher than that then I understand, but I would still encourage you to work at it to become more comfortable with it. When it comes to Savage you should be able to DPS more than that on healer. I would suggest practicing more at handling healing and DPS simultaneously to increase your overall experience and skill on AST and WHM.

Also for best results practice the ABC - Always Be Casting rule. If you waste GCDs by spending too much time without using any ability it can cost you a lot of HPS and DPS in general.

Disclaimer: This post has zero malice. I am simply trying to help and give a bit of advice.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Who gives a shit; it's Sigmascape normal.

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While the percentiles Kaiva mentioned were from Sigmascape normal, the worry about their DPS contribution and percentiles also applies to Savage. As they said in the OP, their 50th percentile in Normal Mode would be considered even worse in Savage, where personal DPS numbers are usually way higher.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

The issue is that a good portion of what makes a difference between one percentile and another isn't the player it's the party... You can take a take for example the 100th percentile player and put him in a group of randoms and his performance will be no where even close to that 100th percentile.

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Firstly let me ask - do you use FFLogs? Do you know how to read it? All of its functions?

This is 100% inaccurate. It will be lower for sure, but it won't be "no where even close". I had plenty of purples where I had a team of 10th percentilers.

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There's so many things that fflogs doesn't tell you that can have a significant impact on your performance. And a lot of them can be as simple as which direction is the boss facing or where is the boss being tanked?. A badly positioned boss might mean you have 10% less uptime. A boss thats constantly being turned might cost you a significant amount of positional bonuses.

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This is also 100% incorrect. FFlogs can tell you all of that if you know where to look and how to read the logs.

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A party member that's stood right next to you might then force you to move and lose cast time where if he was in a better position you wouldn't have to move... lost gcds..

Badly stacked ground aoes can make the difference between taking 2 steps to get out of or taking 7 or 8.. lost gcds.

That player with the stack marker forcing everyone to move away from the boss to stack on him instead of him running to the group on the boss.. more lost gcds

There are quite literally an almost endless number of things that can really impact performance none of which are ever represented in fflogs...

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Every single one of these is captured in the logs and easily viewable.

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Then you have things like other party members and how well they use there buffs. Is chain start being applies with foe and trick attack muliplying the damage boosts quite heavily or are they all being used sporadically at random intervals.

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Easily identifiable in the logs.

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All of these things might slash your performance in half and there's absolutely nothing you can do to control it.

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This is also 100% inaccurate. It would not take a 6.5k DPS MNK and make him do 3.25k DPS. Please refrain from spreading misinformation.

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Player percentiles are essentially worthless. Because it's generally the entire group that makes that number what it is. You could take a 10th percentile player put hi in a 100th percentile group and guarantee he'll do better even if he plays exactly the same....

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Just because you don't know how to utilize a tool doesn't make it useless.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I do agree that composition and skill with affect the percentile a player can reach, but I do strongly disagree with the statement that looking at a percentile is completely worthless too.

It's up to the individuals looking at the logs to see where they can improve and where they're doing well. A percentile gives that player two things: (1) a range of where they are in terms of skill level with the rest of the player base in the same content and (2) gives them a metric / goalpost to aim for.

Also, a 80th percentile player playing in a group that is a 20th percentile skill won't suddenly make their DPS bottom out at the 20th percentile. It'll dip, yes, but I don't believe it'll dip further than a +/-10 percentile range. That's still a sizable gap but it doesn't make things worthless. A highly skilled player will be able to make non-optimal conditions work for them and can adapt to optimize for the conditions they've been given.

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Bingo.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I've fully converted over to WAR, so for the time being, my mains are tank/heals until I get that confidence I had during my elitist phase. I started back up raiding again last night, so we'll see how it goes. I dunno if I can stay away from fflogs...but I'm also not necessarily chasing deeps at the moment.

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Don't stay away from fflogs. Use it as it was intended, compare your casts to someone better on the same class for the same content. Look at CPM, look at the number of specific actions performed, look at the timeline and compare that with your timeline. That's how you'll go from sub-par to average to excellent.

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Originally Posted by Llus

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Admittedly I don't use it to its full potential because I simply don't know how to do deep comparisons like that. I know how to look up how the timeline and stuff like that, but I don't know how to find, say, the number of casts of a certain skill versus the number of casts from another player. Unless I'm supposed to tally that up manually. In which case, I dunno if I can get dedicated enough to do that

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Originally Posted by JCharms

Fixed for correctness. :)

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Yeah, as a PS4 (pro) player. I am at the mercy of people uploading my runs, including the ones I may die cause the tank died and I got hate and ect... it's not a representation of my true power!! It doesn't even represent, nor hold my best runs.

All it means is some man loved his score that he uploaded it and I happen to be in that particular run, and my ilevel is low because I've been unlucky on drops. No way will my percentile will be close to the full I370 man with the 370 weapon and the great party setup. It's just a bad situation overall. I once did a 5.8K turn 2 run and beat the Sam... did that get uploaded? Hell no lol

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Admittedly I don't use it to its full potential because I simply don't know how to do deep comparisons like that. I know how to look up how the timeline and stuff like that, but I don't know how to find, say, the number of casts of a certain skill versus the number of casts from another player. Unless I'm supposed to tally that up manually. In which case, I dunno if I can get dedicated enough to do that

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A little bit above the timeline graphic, there are options for things like "Summary", "Damage Done", etc.. At the far right of that row there is an option for "Casts" that will show the total number of casts each team member has completed for that log. You can then click on individual party members to get a more detailed breakdown on number of casts per spell / ability / weapon skills they've used.