/Accuse @ the devs: have you set us up to fail...?

@Iscah: I regard people as bad players, if they can't even do the simplest of things in their class and refuse to accept advice. A person, who is just inexperienced, but trying to learn and improve is not a bad player in my book.
And I repeat: in no way should dungeons be savage level and require 100% perfect execution of you. But I do believe that a lvl60 dungeon should be more challenging than a lvl50 one.
The game severely lacks a difficulty curve, players get thrown into things like Rabanastre and fail miserably until they outgear the fight. If we were build up by dungeons earlier in the game to that kind of difficulty there wouldn't be so many wipes.

Btw, the sleep quest for Blm is in ARR at lvl15 I think. They made mobs beefy and hard hitting, the npc dialogue told you about sleep. You were required to sleep the mobs so you could engage one at a time or you'd get swarmed and killed. At least that's how the quest was 4 years ago when I ran it on my Blm.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Reading through all the topics on this board - not just this one, but all the other ones where the definition of a 'bad player' seems to slide from "someone who doesn't knowtheir basic skills and/or isn't trying" to "someone who clears the dungeon in 30 minutes instead of 20" and it's disheartening. (Arguably a reason for them to bring in a parse/rating/whatever, because I don't know if I'm good or bad compared to the 'average' player or what standard I should be held to, but I hate to think I'm failing and not be able to know it.)

The other thing is, how do you give the healer more to do? Honest question, because I don't know what you're picturing. What is there other than making enemies hit harder so the healer has more work?

And in the case of Scholar, it could be just that they haven't been properly balanced to function in a low-level dungeon. If they can only get away with it up to the low 30s, that's the point at which Scholar properly exists and isn't being modified for a level below their 'starting point'. Plus I imagine it depends on the skill level of the rest of the party.

Anyway the correct answer is, not needing to heal doesn't mean you can go AFK but gives you more time to support the party by DPSing, casting Esuna, etc. and keeping an eye on everyone's HP. Things can always go wrong.

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I think the issue here is you do not know how to see what we are talking about in other players. For example, do you find it fair that someone can cheat the ilevel requirement to enter a place that requests ilevel 300 average, bringing a 285 weapon when you are given a 290 weapon from the job quest at 70? Also the job quest gives an important ability to most. In the case this is referenced to, it was BLM, who NEEDS foul to be effective to clear AoE trash in a timely matter and still important on bosses to help with up time because server tics can screw you over. Can you understand why people might be upset seeing a player set foot in the last 4 man dungeon and not have your level 70 ability?

We are not talking about YOU being bad or not trying hard enough. We are talking about people that LITERALLY press 1 button throughout the run, people that use pure ST when there are 5 monsters or more in a group, among other very low bar expectations. There are some dungeons a SCH can literally AFK a whole run and not do anything, though people that care just dps. if you are fining yourself at a 25+ minute run with you trying, it is likely you are running into DPS that we are talking about. Even if ONE DPS is salvage pushing buttons like a mad woman, it still will be a 20-30 min run if the co dps is what we are talking about. In fact, a few people i know stopped solo queuing as healer for this very reason, meeting 2 bad dps is too much of a risk. For them waiting for queue as they do other things and have a 14-20 min runs is better then 20-30. That is another reason why experienced players can see it so easily. You can say this logic takes place:

"HMMM I WONDER whos fault it is, if i can get in run A, do 14 min run, then run B see a 30 minute run while the blm is only using ice spells. It is very easy to see without a parser."

For your last thing we know that but most people do not put in that effort that you meet randomly using the duty finder.

No idea where Elemental data center is, but shame I do not know anyone there. I def know people that can have a general idea how you are doing without a parser though.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

OP

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I really just think that you need to understand what your class does well, what it doesnt do well, and actually read the tooltips (the royal you, and not you directly ^^)

Short story: Had someone drop from static back in 2.0/.1. A friend got pulled in, he was a WAR, we had 2 tanks, I had DRG at 50, so I dropped from the PLD role into the DRG role.

Man, it was a different game. And i wasnt very good. but you know what helped? reading the tool tips and asking people what to do! Got our clear on turn 5 a week later.

Thats how you know if you are good player. Are you weaving your abilities the best way possible. Are you keeping your dots on the enemy. are u using damage enhancing skills at the best time in an encounter, are you not dying to AoE, are you assisting the group by clearing mechanics such as adds, levers, are you able to do the dance while still maintaining damage on the main boss, are you able to AoE in appropriate situations...

Or are u just 1,2,3 all day. If you cannot tell which people do these things and if you yourself cannot tell which profile is the better player, its on you. And this is all relevant below 70.

SCH's were likely not in the equation for pre-30 dungeons since you should technically still be an arcanist then. Furthermore, SCH and SMN has had long standing balancing issue from the get go due to the arcanist ties. Buffing SMN buffed SCH and vice versa. Spells had to be manually seperated and "upgrade" differently before any balancing could happen.
But yes, you can absolute go full green DPS in Lowbie instances as a SCH, because you are basically an arcanist without carbuncle out, but not as badly as before the SB fairy nerf, so the break is more around Halatali.


Part of the issue, too, is the vocal group of players that claw about for harder and harder content despite it blocking off the casual playerbase. But we can't think of the casuals as the one's who just spam 2 or 3 skills without a care. That's not the average player. And anyone into FFXIV enough to use the forum isn't a "casual" player either. We need to keep that in mind.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

I mean, we've all concluded that mentioning healer/tank DPS outputs as the same as poking a hornet's nest, because it's supplementary to our main role.
Yet, SE has stated repeatedly that content is built with impression that the DPS by the damage dealing focussed jobs -alone- should ALWAYS be plenty to clear content.
So, why is it that DPS players so often aren't ready for that responsibility? That's what we're asking to have resolved.

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Perfectly put.

In regards to the BLM quest, you sleep the mobs on the way to the urn with the little lala so you don't have to fight them, or if you do end up fighting some, you don't get mobbed

In regards to what healers could do, this would be a perfect place to bring back some crowd control necessity and re-brand healers as support. The support role could buff, debuff, cleanse, pacify/sleep, and restore health. They could even take a cue from WoW and let your role change depending on what your specialization or focus is. That seems like it would give us a more robust experience than just trying to make everyone dps.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Part of the issue, too, is the vocal group of players that claw about for harder and harder content despite it blocking off the casual playerbase. But we can't think of the casuals as the one's who just spam 2 or 3 skills without a care. That's not the average player. And anyone into FFXIV enough to use the forum isn't a "casual" player either. We need to keep that in mind.

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Oh, there should absolutely be a range of content for all tiers of player. It's important to have everything from extremely casual to extremely hardcore content. The key to WoW's success is embracing both ends of the spectrum and everything in between.

This not only gives a high number of players something to do on the casual end but gives the game "street cred" on the hardcore side. The contest to be world first in content being as big as possible involves a relatively small number of players but still garners a sizable amount of attention.

Again, "something for everyone" is the best tagline an MMO can live up to, and XIV is definitely getting there. :)

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

I mean, we've all concluded that mentioning healer/tank DPS outputs as the same as poking a hornet's nest, because it's supplementary to our main role.

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Hell, bring up a DPS' DPS is poking a hornet's nest lol.

- Learn the boss's patterns.
- Use Stone, Sky, Sea to check your dps.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

I think the issue here is you do not know how to see what we are talking about in other players. For example, do you find it fair that someone can cheat the ilevel requirement to enter a place that requests ilevel 300 average, bringing a 285 weapon when you are given a 290 weapon from the job quest at 70?

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That's a loaded question, I think - if the game lets you do it, it's not cheating, and it's up to the devs to set different minimum requirements if that player shouldn't be there. Otherwise you'll get new people coming in with that equipment by honest mistake, having no idea there is a higher standard expected of them by other players than what the game itself has set.

I honestly haven't even paid attention to how long dungeons take. And I only notice other people doing strange things if it's out of combat (tank casting Convalescence at the start of the encounter when I'm healing; DPS running ahead when I'm tanking) or it's affecting me directly (debuffs not getting Esuna'd; tank makes the boss move unnecessarily while I try to melee it). In combat I'm too busy concentrating on my own actions to notice others' - and generally if I do, that means I'm not paying attention and my own performance is suffering, or I forgot to pay attention to something more important like my own HP bar. I'm only just getting the hang of watching the enemy's cast bar and not just looking for floor AoE markers.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

No idea where Elemental data center is, but shame I do not know anyone there. I def know people that can have a general idea how you are doing without a parser though.

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Elemental data centre is in Japan. (I'm from Australia.) I guess I could see if some of my FC friends are using parsers.

Also I only thought of it after my previous post, but I'm leveling astrologian currently, and when I get low-level dungeons with that I'm probably playing 90% DPS outside of boss battles. So Scholar's faerie just fills in that little gap. (And I guess Tam-Tara in particular doesn't really have mid-dungeon boss battles? Just those imp mobs and then the Soulcounters which aren't that tough.) Ultimately those early dungeons are built for the difficulty level of someone who could have not even played a game before, or only started this one yesterday, and it's fair enough that a practiced player can do it with minimal effort by comparison.