...do you guys just ignore this part? WHM has tetra, assize, indulgence, benison, and asylum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riyshn
Not even taking lilies CDR into account, WHM has ~2200 potency worth of heals/shields every 60s. Reduce asylum's heal by 33% to account for the 90s CD means ~1150 of that oGCD pot is AOE healing.
SCH has 1600 potency worth of healing every 45s (lustrate + indom + indom). 1000 of that oGCD pot is AOE healing.
(2200/60) * 45 = 1650 WHM oGCD pot every 45s vs the 1600-1700 from SCH.
This is not even taking into account the HoT from regens/medica II's or the 2500+ potency gained from benediction every 3m, which adds (2500/180) * 45 = 625 pot/45s.
That means WHM, just using up 2 lilies/min gets the same oGCD healing as SCH, but with good lilies management can increase that dramatically.
The only advantage SCH have right now is that they have more flexibility in the timing of their oGCD's, but since every fight is scripted this ends up not mattering much once the fight is memorized for optimal CD usage.
4.1 and us healers
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10-02-2017, 12:30 PMDregenfox
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10-02-2017, 01:59 PMIllyaPrismaPlease stop with these numbers. They are incorrect because you are inflating certain aspects of WHM cooldowns while leaving out SCH cooldowns. You aren't including Whispering Dawn, which is always coupled with Rouse, so there's 700 potency missed right there. Excogitation should be accounted for as well, so your little addition should actually be Indom + Indom + Excog = 1800. That plus Whispering Dawn is 2500, with 1700 of that being AoE, if we're talking raw potency. We haven't even discussed the healing output of Fey Union either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dregenfox
Also, you know that WHM would need to use 3 AoE heals, less than 10 seconds apart from each other, to get the full potency of PI? Not to mention the fact that you need to use a GCD for healing at all to even gain access to PI. Same with Benison. Both cost you a minimum of 250 potency every time. -
10-02-2017, 02:09 PMCreinCrein
Tfw u base your calculations off indom's single target value.
Indom is 4000 potency per cast, WD is 7840 with rouse, Fey Union 1440 per 45s. Embrace is 5000 per minute if you want to toss that in too, so roughly 23080~ combined potency worth of raid healing per minute without spending a single GCD if you really wanted to. -
10-02-2017, 04:11 PMExiled_Tonberry
Oh lord. Is someone actually trying to argue that SCH oGCDs are not as good as WHMs?
It doesn't even take writing out the math for it to know that SCH lives off their OGCDs. -
10-02-2017, 05:15 PMSebazyAlso, following on from the comments and corrections above, even with the MP boosts WHM got for SB, I'm fairly certain it's not considered the norm for WHMs to pocket Assize unless it's for a juicy DPS opportunity (Aka O3S adds if you still get them, O4S meteors). Outside of those, I'm hitting it on cooldown irrespective of the HPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dregenfox
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10-02-2017, 10:23 PMGhishlainHere's my counter argument for you - I mathed this out around when 4.05 so there might still be some errors in the evaluation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dregenfox
Total SCH potency over three minutes in oGCD and "HoTs" - 24,200 potency
Total WHM potency over three minutes in oGCD and HoTs - 18,668 potency
Even if you only use Excog and Lustrates as your base SCH still hits 9,800 potency in a three minute period. WHM in the same period has 8,739 potency. If you converted one Lustrate into Indom you'd lose 100 potency in single target healing 6 times over the course of three minutes, thus reducing single target potential down to 9,200 potency.
SCH still remains a beast in the single target healing department and I feel you're putting too much stock in the CDR reduction that Lilies provide considering at the highest levels of play that CDR means very little since you'll be relying primarily on your oGCDs and HoTs to get through the encounter. -
10-03-2017, 07:16 AMDregenfoxI don't even understand how you can justify your numbers and just throw out at least 450-900 potency worth of oGCD healing from WHM. Single target healing only matters for 4-man dungeon parties, and you can clear those while ignoring 80% of your kit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghishlain
As much as you guys want to theorycraft and say you can get through a savage raid with pure oGCD's, the fact remains that the main healers for even the top-tier groups are putting 30%+ of their healing into hardcasts. I can go through a random o3s/o4s savage fight and count at least 30 hardcasts for just the AST over an 8 minute period - that's 3-4 hardcasts per minute on average.
Discounting the healing from plenary indulgence or completely ignoring lilies while at the same time giving Excog 100% uptime/success rate and throwing out all AOE healing is just twisting the numbers in SCH's favor.
The other issue is that people are so desperate to prove their point that we've moved beyond oGCD's and into other class mechanics like pets. While it's true the pet gives SCH more passive healing, it's deceptive because SCH's hardcast heals were made extremely bad to compensate for it. This is the reason why the AST ends up taking >75-80% of all the hardcasts for the raid during an AOE while the SCH just sits there casting broil.
Past a certain point of incoming damage, once the SCH is forced to cast a single adlo/succor their healing efficiency plummets. This happens in raids during burst situations, which is why groups make the non-SCH take up the brunt of any healing needed that oGCD healing can't handle. Indom received a ridiculous buff from SE because of this.
If you actually play through an endgame 4-man dungeon making use of WHM's entire kit you'd be surprised at how capable they are of getting through pulls with a minimal number of hardcasts, even without holy.
I was one of the strongest proponents for keeping SCH adlo/succor nerfed and making their oGCD kit more dynamic with resets/combos, but people complained too much about adlo/succor and the changes are already in for 4.1. Adlo and succor are being buffed significantly and that's not likely to change.
It's true that a lot of times assize is used for damage/mana regen, but it's also true that most of the AF used by SCH ends up being blown on energy drain. Go and look up actual FFLOGS and you'll find that SCH's healing in a REAL raid situation ends up being much lower than either WHM or AST, because they are forced to rely only on their oGCD/fairy. -
10-03-2017, 07:42 AMCreinCrein
The best way to optimize is to actually let the sch main-heal solely with their OGCDs. A majority of the fastest clears have scholar beating their cohealer's hps by a pretty large margin. The reason why that's the inverse in less optimized raids is because it requires a lot of planning, which is thematically p correct in terms of the class identity. On the point of being desperate to prove a point tho . . . you were literally just measuring indom's potency on how much it heals a single target . . .
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10-03-2017, 08:21 AMTridus92 pages of the "healer DPS" thread in, and this is still the single most ridiculous thing I've read on this forum. The pet kinda matters when you're talking about healing, since it's healing that doesn't require a GCD. Ignoring it just makes you look completely absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dregenfox
From your comments, your goal appears to be to erase WHM from the game by making SCH better at absolutely everything, oh and also having a pet that doesn't count because reasons. -
10-03-2017, 08:59 AMGhishlainIt's funny you should mention that single target healing is irrelavent considering in your number you're using things like Tetragrammaton, Benedition, and Divine Benison to inflate WHM numbers despite the fact they're single target abilities. You never specified in your argument that you were aiming for single target or AoE healing and since AoE abilities can still be used to buffer for single targets that seemed like a good assumption to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dregenfox
Clearly I'm wrong with this assumption but you haven't disproved my single target theorycraft either so take what you will. I feel my theorycraft spreadsheet for single target is on a more stable foundation than what you've posted just now using a myriad of abilities at your disposal.
Actually, I can to a degree. Optimized healer play means using as few GCD as possible to hardcast heals, which means WHMs are generating fewer Lilies, which means few Divine Benison. I actually only Divine Benison twice in O4S when things go well, and those are literally the only two times I cast Cure II in the entire fight and I never cast Cure I. Plenary Indulgence may not be worth ignoring but for the sake of a purely single target simulation, it's not really necessary either. With that being said at a lark it'd offer 300 potency / min to 900 more potency to the calculation which would even out the single target healing but then the WHM is losing HPS because they're losing potency by using less efficient AoE heals for single target purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dregenfox
By contrast, Excogitation actually allows for more healer DPS because it's a powerful heal in a single Aetherflow and both healer should be actively seeking to have it go off to maximize DPS uptime. It's the best single target heal in the game outside of Benediction that you want to use every 45 seconds barring lack of Aetherflow stacks.
You can't ignore the pet. The pet is part and parcel with the SCH kit. If you're ignoring the pet you're effectively ignoring close to 5,000 potency/min worth of healing for absolutely free to the SCH kit. Focusing primarily on those things tagged "ability" that aren't part of the "pet" is irrational and only hampers your argument even further. [edit] Just to emphasize on this point alone, we're talking about healing potential that jobs have that don't rely on their GCD. The pet is the epitome of GCD-free healing. You just can't ignore it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dregenfox
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So, I was also curious that I went and mathed out AoE oGCDs out a whim. Let me know if I missed anything.
White Mage
Asylum = 800 potency / target / 90s = 8.89 potency/s
Assize = 300 potency / target / 60s = 5.00 potency/s
Plenary Inguldence (conservative) = 300 potency / target / 60s = 5.00 potency/s [you're really only going to see 3 stack PI in things like Vacuum Wave spam in O3S, Almegests after GCO O4S, and soft enrage mode in O4S]
White Mage total AoE oGCD potential = 18.89 potency/s
Scholar
Indomitability = 500 potency / target / 30s = 16.67 potency/s
Roused Whispering Dawn = 644 potency / target / 60s = 10.73 potency/s [due note that Whispering Dawn does count as a spell so it does gain bonuses from Fey Illuminate as well, unlike every other oGCD AoE heal in the game]
Scholar total AoE oGCD potential = 27.40 potency/s
Assuming I've hit all the correct abilities, SCH still wins in the AoE oGCD situation as well. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.