Tanks using ilv270 STR acessories

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Originally Posted by Zumi

This basically should be something that is fixed either change the way tank damage worked previous patch or make it so you can't use 270 str acc on tanks both options work.

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Honestly, I don't see just the latter option working; it doesn't solve the underlying problem, the why tanks are using i270 accessories to begin with. It would just make more disgruntled players, likely reduce the tank population even more, and increase queue times for healers and especially DPS's.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

Honestly, I don't see just the latter option working; it doesn't solve the underlying problem, the why tanks are using i270 accessories to begin with. It would just make more disgruntled players, likely reduce the tank population even more, and increase queue times for healers and especially DPS's.

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Hyperbole much?

People are using str accessories because they can, not because they need to. Threat and dps checks might become a problem later but they aren't a problem now. As time goes on and threat does become problematic with gear scaling, it will also become more and more of a burden not to upgrade your gear, since you will have relatively less and less hp than you could.

Don't conflate the two different problems:
1. Threat scaling is much more likely to be an issue with tank damage being lower and not scaling as well with gear upgrades. This will lead to enmity management feeling worse as average players gear gets better. This can be fixed in a number of ways, but the most likely are a. going back to vit scaling damage, or b. scaling enmity with either vit or any other ilvl-increasing stat.

2. Tanks can still use ilvl270 str accessories, while not being able to use higher ilvl str accessories. This somewhat hides point 1, and acts as a short term solution, but is neither the cause nor the fix of that issue. While tanks are able to use those accessories they offer significantly more damage in an environment that doesn't yet demand higher survival than the severe ilvl drop costs.

The 270 accessories absolutely should be role blocked if the higher ilvl accessories remain blocked; 270 accessories from the previous expansion being significantly better is highly unintuitive and definitely not what the devs want to be happening. New players have to somehow work out where their damage is coming from, they have to know that the old accessories still allow this, and they have to farm the materials required to get those accessories in old content. This is not good for the game, even if the experienced tanks like putting out that extra 30% damage for the next couple of weeks.

Call for solutions to the actual problem rather than conflating it with a contextual one.

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Originally Posted by Alpha087

It's not an exploit, it's terrible game design.

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While it does happen to be poor design, I'm more likely to believe it was an oversight on their part, having forgotten about (or repressed) the STR tanking meta from Gordias.

Just did Lakshmi yesterday as OT with all strength accessories.... was more than fine. Weaved in a few STR accessories for Sussano, again.. was fine.

No one should be blaming TANKs for trying to optimize themselves. We've been here before. Until they add materia with high enough values, or give VIT back as a damage modifier, they just made old STR accessories optimal for tanks. It's all Min/Maxing again. Since Vitality is ONLY Hp, you only need as much as you need to survive, and anything else is just fluff that can be traded for damage.

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Originally Posted by Furious

*snip*

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I don't think I was conflating the issues. I find threat management issues to be rearing its head at the moment. The person I was replying to, said the problem could be fixed with either going back to vit scaling or locking 270 accessories. However, if we go back to vit scaling, locking the 270 accessories becomes unnecessary as they would become inferior to the vit ones while just locking the i270 accessories wouldn't solve the threat scaling problem.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

You can swap accessories once you are in the instance, even if it would bring you under the minimum ilvl.

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Oh, I know. The person I quoted wanted to include a whole new mechanic not to dissimilar from accuracy. If you didn't have enough "defense," bosses just one shot you. That was what I was replying to there.

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Originally Posted by Furious

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Is it really hyperbolic though? Tanks preferring 270 accessories says a lot more than mere stats. People don't like the changes to tanks since most feel incredibly arbitrary. The game isn't requiring more from them as a tank per se, but simply not allowing them to do more damage. Threat management could be fun if it tied into more than spamming one combo endlessly. Nothing is fun about using Power Slash. It doesn't give MP and is a straight damage loss. Necessitating several more in a fight sucks for Dark Knights. The fact 270 accessories make it easier to handle aggro only confounds the issue further. The devs need to stop beating around the bush. Do they want tanks and healers to perform their roles more? Then make the content warrant it. I am perfectly happy to hold aggro or heal 80% of a fight. All you needs do is make it interesting. Presently, a design oversight is better than the actual changes they made. That's... embarrassing.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

I don't think I was conflating the issues. I find threat management issues to be rearing its head at the moment. The person I was replying to, said the problem could be fixed with either going back to vit scaling or locking 270 accessories. However, if we go back to vit scaling, locking the 270 accessories becomes unnecessary as they would become inferior to the vit ones while just locking the i270 accessories wouldn't solve the threat scaling problem.

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In a world of tanks using shirk and taunt swapping there is pretty much zero chance you're having actual threat issues right now in vit gear, even with the changes, that aren't involving rotational issues (whether yours or your dps not using their tools). A shirk rotation alone gains 56% snap threat on top of your current main tank's threat, and there are many more tools available for management of enmity from the dps. Whether or not they use them is up to them and you.

It will become an issue, but it certainly isn't one yet.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Is it really hyperbolic though? Tanks preferring 270 accessories says a lot more than mere stats. People don't like the changes to tanks since most feel incredibly arbitrary. The game isn't requiring more from them as a tank per se, but simply not allowing them to do more damage. Threat management could be fun if it tied into more than spamming one combo endlessly. Nothing is fun about using Power Slash. It doesn't give MP and is a straight damage loss. Necessitating several more in a fight sucks for Dark Knights. The fact 270 accessories make it easier to handle aggro only confounds the issue further. The devs need to stop beating around the bush. Do they want tanks and healers to perform their roles more? Then make the content warrant it. I am perfectly happy to hold aggro or heal 80% of a fight. All you needs do is make it interesting. Presently, a design oversight is better than the actual changes they made. That's... embarrassing.

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Arbitrary is a buzzword that never means very much. The changes clearly are not arbitrary, they were done with intent, not at a whim. If that is an arbitrary change to you, then literally every change made to the game is arbitrary by the nature of it being a game. Whether or not they work or things were missed, they aren't arbitrary.

Using the enmity combo in and of itself may be more boring, but requiring more variation in rotation potentially is not. I don't know dark at all so I cant comment there, but for paladin when you need threat, you need to fit rage of halone combo in to a slot where you would have put royal authority. It's not more difficult, it's not less complex, it's not really more complex, but an increased need for it increases potential decision making.

I don't have any particular problem with SE having the goals of reducing tank damage or increasing the need for enmity generation as a portion of actions taken; these things are only a nerf in a relative sense compared to previous iterations. What I do have a problem with is the nerf to scaling of damage and/or enmity. When they change the scaling so that one class scales more quickly or more slowly than another, that becomes a more significant issue over time. The scaling of enmity (and/or damage) will still equally be a problem even with str accessories; it will just manifest later.

Tanks preferring 270 accessories really isn't more than "mere stats" - they allow the tanks to do more damage and threat than vit accessories in a scenario where survival is zero sum and dps is uncapped. This has already been addressed by SE by disallowing str accessories, it just wasn't applied unilaterally enough.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Arbitrary is a buzzword that never means very much. The changes clearly are not arbitrary, they were done with intent, not at a whim. If that is an arbitrary change to you, then literally every change made to the game is arbitrary by the nature of it being a game. Whether or not they work or things were missed, they aren't arbitrary.

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Tanks are still more than capable of pulling the room and healers can still DPS large pulls. You're simply punished for optimizing both jobs outside their core roles. If they want tanks in tank stance more, make the damn bosses hit hard enough so the mere idea of Slaying accessories would be ludicrous. The fact tanks can walk into Susano and Lakshmi with upwards of 10k less HP and survive is the actual problem. Likewise, even if they do correct the HW accessory oversight but Omega Savage still doesn't require 50-60K to survive everything. It's rendered pointless. These changes are arbitrary because we're still playing the exact same way, it's simply a dumb downed variety.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Call for solutions to the actual problem rather than conflating it with a contextual one.

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I agree but with I doubt we'll see any changes before 4.2.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...hange/di28d2s/

I am waiting for the day that tank buster will one shot a tank without vit accessory because even now I still love my healer and I still wear vit accessory