Raider to Non-Raider: an exhibition on thoughts and misconceptions

The OP pretty much hits the nail on the head, on one hand we have overly simple raid with alex nm and on the other we have viciously tuned savage. The fights themselves are not incredibly fun or interesting either. Arguably pepsiman was a well done fight, but I don't think I know a single person who's turned around and said "oh boy I love Manipulator so much! Can't wait to go back in there!"

I've noticed the same thing, my linkshells are emptying out, people are quitting, people are leaving server hoping they'll find something better. I personally don't mind the challenge given to us by A3 and A4 but it doesn't take a PhD to see that a lack of a middle ground destroyed a lot of groups motivation.

The mid-core and even lots of hard-core raiders are quitting in droves. A single person quitting your static could spell the end if you can't find a suitable replacement. And lord is it hard to find a suitable replacement, even during coil.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

For me the best Raid tier that was balanced between mechanics and gear progression was SCoB.

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Yaaas, SCoB was easily the most fun raid tier for me. Tuning was perfect imo dps checks and mechanics were well thought out. Groups spent most of their time learning how to deal with mechanics and the fights were tuned so that players outside of the "true elite" (or however we're classing the world first players and such) could still reasonably kill it before nerfs/echo.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

I personally disagree with that, but I'm not here to change opinions on that. I do, however, think they tuned normal Alexander a little too low.

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Basically it was poor wording. Savage Alexander =/= Savage SCoB simply because savage second coil was completely optional in the sense that it removed 2/3 from the points in the OP. There was no new story (obviously), but there was also no relevant loot so there goes two large motivators for players/groups. The remainder of the people who did it (or desperately tried to find a group to do it like myself) usually did so for the challenge, the fights were mechanically very fun even though they were extremely difficult.

If they dropped alexander normal on us with i190 gear then dropped savage alexander with the exact same gear but just titles you'd probably have the exact same reception that savage second coil got. Massive lack of interest until people were just simply so bored that they'd try it.

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

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Thing is its not a blog post but a well thought out topic we should as, gamers discuss. Ignoring it or acting like tweens just because its long just makes the situation worst. Infact, it just derails the thread.

The post langth in question is good as it explains in detail where the trouble areas are as well as the the writer's over all opinion is. Avoiding long posts because of it simply being long just proves the point that you as a reader may not have the best intent at hand or are the reason the writer wrote the post to begin with. If we avoid having deep discussions, solutions can't be found to complex issues in just about every MMO.

And last i checked derailing a thread is rude, Forums have always been places to hold deep diiscussion on topics that what the forum is for. This is the FF14 forum, here we can and should be discussing the good and bad of the and its community, and talk of possible solutions to problems, talk in detail on stuff we like and hope to see more of. I see nothing wrong with the thread, the topic said thread is abount or how long it is. The OP doesn't make any irrelivent comments, everything is on point, and if taken the time to read its is a good read.

I think as gamers we need to get off of the facebook/twiiter mindset. Too many comments of late have become "too long didn't read" or #insertsomecatchthing. To me it underminds the point of forum discussions like this and only showcases how juvinile we as humans are becoming since the social media boom.

I think the OP post langth just makes it more prominate that the OP her/himself loves this game, amd doesn't want to see anything bad happen to it, and opened a topic for discussion to find like minded people, as well as hearing varring views. Which again is what forums are about.

Sry for thread derailment, but i just hate when ppl come in derail a thread for petty reasons. (not saying the person i quoted did.)

Can ppl stop saying alexander is some out of left field thing? It isn't Go back to the quest about brayflox longstop prior to tien, then the quest for hardmode, then the sharlayan side quests. It all explains the iluminati goblins and their pursuit of being master of tinker knowledge, and fine cheese making. Alex is their primal. It fits the golbins well, and i can't wait to see more of the story. Im gonna laugh if they took the codex because of the cheese recipe it contained.

Infact doing alexanxder reminded me of morrowind and exploring dwermer ruins, which was my fav open world rpg.

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Originally Posted by Ercapote

let me call bs here, ANYONE can do raids and even after nerfs even MORE can do it, and if you seriously can't beat the raids after the nerf then you should just reconsider changing the game, cuz you cannot be that handicap to not be able to do this sort of things, ANYONE who spend the time to level multiple classes to 60 if not all to "see the story" will have the same time and dedication to do coils... and you want to say you can take your time with the classes, by the time you level multiple classes the raid will probably be nerfed. people need to stop been sensitive and work for it. is hard? don't do it.....want story? go to youtube

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dude what the heck is your problem that its the type of attitude the OP is trying to explaining isn't the norm, and fighting against. There is no need for such bullying comments. Really, it's not needed. Class leveling does not take the same amount of time/dedication as raiding does, as the exp bonus and you level at your pace/time. Raiding requires finding and communicating with a group, which may be for some harder then the raid itself because of playing at odd hours due to work/timezone/other obligations. Leveling is just a duty finder click, leve click, or fate farm away. Unless you want all raiding to be placed in DF, then stop putting people down. And really go watch youtube is a very juvinile thing to say.

edit daily limit:

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

So, as is typical in many of these discussions, if you don't like what someone has posted, you attack them. I'm now a "tween" with bad intent and the reason that the OP posted his topic in the first place.

The OP actually makes some good points but they are difficult to find for many because of the writing style. Such a long post could have really benefited by some serious editing. By benefit, I mean do better at communicating the writer's views to the audience. For example, a large section of the introduction to his post is taken with a long quote from someone not yet involved in the thread. The decision to include that caused a big derail when that person predictably responded. It wasn't needed to make his point.

For the record, I agree that there is too big of a gap for 8 man content between NM Alexander and Savage. The level / rewards of Alexander NM, though, is spot on.

Personally, I think the game needs more top level 4 man content. Smaller statics should be easier to maintain.

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First off your assuming I am attacking you, I wasn't. I didn't call you a tween i was refering to those ppl who simply posted "Too long didn't read". You are coming off with bad intent as your acting like a high school teacher grading a paper. If you read the post in full the intro goes with the set up as their reason to write the topic (which is actual forum essay set up) And also brought up evidence to their reason (again correct, and fyi the person who quote was used is infact in the thread and tried to derail it) And i do not agree nor disagree with what you said, i just found it inapropriate and unnessisary, as well as the assumption i attacked or insulted you. A simple question of "are you refering to me" would have suffice. I also apologise as i didn't space out the reply well but i had hit the limit and it hard to edit on the ps3.

And having said evidence was good as it showcased an issue in mmo since WoW, which is the hate the people who raid get, which i agree with OP is not cool. Instead of picking appart HOW the post was writen, and actually read it, and see it in the full context. Your doing the post and this thread an injustice by picking on the OP's writing style.

I'll be frank, The op is the best read, i have read on any gaming forum. Detailed and on point, gets the point across that there is an issue and we should fix it. I wish more people wrote like this instead of posting gifs, macro images, or twitter posts. Over summerizing a topic to make it a short read for sake of a short read isn't always best, an example of this would be a conversation i had with my b/f over psn. He over summerized something he was letting me know, he was going to 2 job interviews over the next two days and the lack of details (and poor wording) made it sound like it was for 2 different jobs. Till we talked in game and he better explained it, adding in the missing details etc.
Inshort the Op is a good read, the context and langth are proper for the content of what is being discussed.

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

I've noticed the same thing, my linkshells are emptying out, people are quitting, people are leaving server hoping they'll find something better. I personally don't mind the challenge given to us by A3 and A4 but it doesn't take a PhD to see that a lack of a middle ground destroyed a lot of groups motivation.

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I'm seeing this a lot. I'm part of a big free company and we only have a few active statics now. We used to have a dozen. It's because we rofl-stomped alex nm then ran into a brickwall with alex savage. Only the most hardcore are still active.

Also, I actually enjoy the Manipulator fight. :p

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

I'm seeing this a lot. I'm part of a big free company and we only have a few active statics now. We used to have a dozen. It's because we rofl-stomped alex nm then ran into a brickwall with alex savage. Only the most hardcore are still active.

Also, I actually enjoy the Manipulator fight. :p

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Agree, when ran into Alex Savage, it killed statics

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Originally Posted by LaurelinKementari

Stuff

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The difference between experiencing the story for the classes/jobs and the ones in a raid are very different. Every player has access to every class/job story no matter how much time they are able to play, how good they are at the game, or the kind of content they prefer. With the numerous ways to level, anyone can level a class and enjoy their story without a problem. Raids are very different from that. Sure, anyone can try them, but even after nerfs, many people can't and won't complete them and see their story. It is much more involved. It's not something you can do by yourself, or with a turbulent schedule, or can enjoy if you aren't good at the game. Coil is definitely not accessible to everyone and people want to enjoy the story without dealing with the raiding environment. So much so that SE implemented story mode. SE agrees with this notion for many different reasons. There's also people that got into raiding just for the story. Now that they can get what they want without dealing with raiding, they don't raid anymore. Is that a bad thing? You are getting what you want out of the game without taking it to the logical extreme (because I know someone will retort saying, by that logic, since SE did this, they should hand out the BiS gear too.) It seems to me that people are more upset that there's no middle ground than he fact that their motivation for doing the hardest of hardcore content is gone.

Simply put, the story used for raiding content should be seen by as many people as possible. SE agrees with and wants this to happen. It's not them "caving in" to the demands of the casual crowd, it's them wanting people to see the fruits of their labor.

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Originally Posted by Ercapote

Silliness

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If anyone could do raids, it'd be in the DF and could be easily cleared with PUGs. But it cant and it won't. One of the points of a story mode was so that SE does not have to ever nerf Savage. The only reason Coil was nerfed was so that more people could get into it and enjoy the story SE wanted everyone to see. So yeah, take your blinders off.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

I personally disagree with that, but I'm not here to change opinions on that.

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If you have watched all Live Letters in the past 13 month, you would know that Alex Savage got announced as the next regular raid tier, while the normal mode is intended for story people.

From my own first hand experience A3S is the first floor in Alex Savage, where progressing feels the same like Coil in early days.

Alex normal is very far away from what Coil ever was.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

If you have watched all Live Letters in the past 13 month, you would know that Alex Savage got announced as the next regular raid tier, while the normal mode is intended for story people.

From my own first hand experience A3S is the first floor in Alex Savage, where progressing feels the same like Coil in early days.

Alex normal is very far away from what Coil ever was.

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I've watched all the live letters, and I don't need English translations to tell me what they're saying either. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Edit:

Also, to be clear. I'm not saying Alex normal is comparable to Coil. If you'd read my previous post, you'd see that I said, and I quote "think they tuned normal Alexander a little too low."

I completely agree with the OP.
I'm pushing A3S and I feel the lack of story and the "surprise" factor that BCoB had. When you first entered T12 to find Phoenix it was awesome without mentioning the soundtrack ! In Alex you fight the same enemies that you defeated in normal mode with more power and mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

Thing is its not a blog post but a well thought out topic we should as, gamers discuss. Ignoring it or acting like tweens just because its long just makes the situation worst. Infact, it just derails the thread.

The post langth in question is good as it explains in detail where the trouble areas are as well as the the writer's over all opinion is. Avoiding long posts because of it simply being long just proves the point that you as a reader may not have the best intent at hand or are the reason the writer wrote the post to begin with. If we avoid having deep discussions, solutions can't be found to complex issues in just about every MMO.

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So, as is typical in many of these discussions, if you don't like what someone has posted, you attack them. I'm now a "tween" with bad intent and the reason that the OP posted his topic in the first place.

The OP actually makes some good points but they are difficult to find for many because of the writing style. Such a long post could have really benefited by some serious editing. By benefit, I mean do better at communicating the writer's views to the audience. For example, a large section of the introduction to his post is taken with a long quote from someone not yet involved in the thread. The decision to include that caused a big derail when that person predictably responded. It wasn't needed to make his point.

For the record, I agree that there is too big of a gap for 8 man content between NM Alexander and Savage. The level / rewards of Alexander NM, though, is spot on.

Personally, I think the game needs more top level 4 man content. Smaller statics should be easier to maintain.

I would ignore the people who don't contribute to the discussion if you wish to have a intelligent and rational discussion. It's obvious a large portion of people didn't even read the whole OP.

In regards to the OP I pretty much agree. Alexander as a whole is a flop IMO. The base of the problem IMO is that Alexander NM isn't hard enough and isn't interesting. The story is very bland and even the gear isn't very well designed. I think a large portion of the problem could be fixed if the difficulty of Alex NM was set at a mid core level of coil with savage remaining savage. The reality is that unsynced final coil nerfed with echo is harder than this "raid" when it comes to normal mode. This would also create the carrot on the stick for the story and negate some of the things said in the orginal post.