Bard and Wanderer's Minuet use it

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

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That ease of access comes at a price, yes. But that price is not justification for everyone to be as selfish as they want. That price is you may meet people you don't like, you may get people who aren't skilled, etc. That price is not "Other people have the right to impose their playstyle onto you and 2 others and you have no right to say anything".

You don't see this sort of toxic thinking on JP servers from what I've heard. People there generally try to contribute, even if they have to do some things they don't like with their job, for the good of the group they're spending their time with. They don't think "me me me, forget the group"

If you want to sabotage your group, maybe you should be the one to try and get a group who likes the idea on PF, because I guarantee you: More people will prefer a bard doing their best and using WM, or at least trying to use it correctly, over one who refuses to because they don't like it and sabotages the group.

If you're going into a dungeon thinking, "I don't like this skill so I'm not using it", you're in the wrong. Think for a moment how that would turn out if every player did this with every job. Please don't advocate intentional group sabotage, and please don't try to advocate censorship of people who have problems with this.

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Originally Posted by RamzaRuglia

Actually, you CAN still move and shoot with WM, because not all the skills need the charge time.

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/sigh

Yes, that's true. You can certainly still shoot while moving with certain skills or procs. It's the fact you indicated "We did not lose a single iota of mobility.", implying you did not lose a single bit of ability to DPS while moving. In other words, you're implying you would be able to Heavy Shot, Straight Shot, WB/VB, EA, etc while moving with WM... as that was how BRD would have functioned before. To not lose anything, means it remained COMPLETELY the same, which clearly it did not. Proper word use or statement correction avoids these pointless arguments.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

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Nope I would not consider that as trying. With that being said, WM is a huge change to the core of the class that many bards love. It would be selfish of me, to try and control how they enjoy the class in a queue system. Being selfish works both ways in this debate. They are helping you fight a dungeon, it is just not how you like them to play. Reason I say this is because I am understanding. I think it is sad that a few mins longer in a dungeon would make people upset and call others griefing

At the end of the day, the raid or dungeon will get done. That is all that matters, and if it does not well that is fine also. Always next time.

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

At the end of the day, the raid or dungeon will get done. That is all that matters, and if it does not well that is fine also. Always next time.

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Dungeon yes, raid either no or you're getting carried. dps role in raids is to maximize their dps, and the mechanics are designed around that; failure to do so will wipe the group. How much raid experience do you have, exactly?

Being selfish doesn't really work both ways in this conversation. One side is already doing their job to the best of their ability, one side is not. Asking the latter side to meet somewhere in the middle is not selfish. Nor is completion all that necessarily matters; different people have different priorities. Just because completion is generally the more important of those priorities, doesn't mean that everything else has null value. Just generally speaking, not even limited to gaming, stuff is very rarely of some absolute binary value.

Edit: Nevermind, looked it up. You have absolutely no raid experience.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

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Yeah...I don't see how asking a bard to use WM and stand still for at least when their buffs are up is asking too much, but hey, whatever! Maybe we should all just start auto attacking and not using our skills we don't like :) I mean we'd all still be helping some, right? About 200% less, but still helping!

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Originally Posted by Adire

Yeah...I don't see how asking a bard to use WM and stand still for at least when their buffs are up is asking too much, but hey, whatever! Maybe we should all just start auto attacking and using our skills we don't like :) I mean we'd all still be helping some, right? About 200% less, but still helping!

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yeah lol, I think I went into a coma for a few seconds when she said that spamming blizzard3 was not only okay, but immune to criticism. Oh well, as her husband loves to say, common sense is not so common ;)

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

Nope I would not consider that as trying. With that being said, WM is a huge change to the core of the class that many bards love. It would be selfish of me, to try and control how they enjoy the class in a queue system. Being selfish works both ways in this debate. They are helping you fight a dungeon, it is just not how you like them to play. Reason I say this is because I am understanding. I think it is sad that a few mins longer in a dungeon would make people upset and call others griefing

At the end of the day, the raid or dungeon will get done. That is all that matters, and if it does not well that is fine also. Always next time.

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Look, WM is indeed a very huge change to the freedom of mobility that BRD had over other jobs, not to mention that it was basically a somewhat subpar melee doing their job at range (due to quick succession of damage output and no cast time). That's idiotically debated for one reason or another.

The point that the guy is trying to make is that in certain uncommon situations, that being mostly progression related top tier raid content or severe DPS/performance checks elsewhere, you'd need to conform to push your potential output to needed levels. Even in content that isn't the max, you will likely come across people that aren't very geared or aren't playing very well. Intentionally subjecting your group to wipes because DPS failed to do something in time is selfish or sabotage-like. I mean it's bad enough the other person isn't doing well, but if you know for a fact that you can do better, and its needed... you should.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

yeah lol, I think I went into a coma for a few seconds when she said that spamming blizzard3 was not only okay, but immune to criticism. Oh well, as her husband loves to say, common sense is not so common ;)

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Ya, I think we will never see eye to eye. and no point going in a circle about it. Respect is all in the eye of the beholder. Telling a bard to use a skill he does not want to do so it saves you some time is just silly. Even in raids, it is a group control thing, if the bard is holding the raid back, by all means kick him. I will still stand behind my statement not a person who uses the queue system has a right to tell others how to play.

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

Ya, I think we will never see eye to eye. and no point going in a circle about it.

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Well we can agree on that much at least.

I will say, though, if you ever try your hand at raiding and start feeling wrongfully antagonized (and trust me, you will), maybe give what I've said some more thought. There's a time and place for doing whatever you want, and when people are counting on you is not it.

Meh I have mixed feelings about this. But at the very least change the animation and sound.