Goad

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Originally Posted by LionKing

"You don't sit with Internal Release ready to go the entire dungeon because "There was never a situation where we would die if I didn't have extra crit. Use your skills, and use them on your own without having to be asked." Quote from your post. Based on your logic, Benediction should be used as well on a random player on a random time just because "There was never a situation where we would die if XyZ.." . Or you know "Holmgang" when you are full health, just because "There was never a situation where we would die if etc..."... And then afterward, when a actual situation raises, required you to use those skills, will you like "Oh shit, they are on CD"?

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Benediction and Holmgang are "Oh sh--" buttons that save the party from wiping. Goad is a TP regeneration skill to be used on a party member as a support mechanism. If you can't see the difference in the use of Goad and the two skills you mentioned, there's not much else I can say. I think you are just arguing to argue, so whatever. The point is, Goad is a skill on your hotbar. It's not up to everyone else to tell you when and how to use it, you need to learn when and how. Paladins and Warriors shouldn't need to be told when to use Provoke, they should just know that "Oh, that stray mob is wailing on our poor healer. Provoke!". Ninjas should just know that "Oh hey this dragoon is spamming doom spike! Goad!"

You can sit here and argue that you have no obligation to use your skill, and that's fine. That's your call. You can just take goad off your hotbar completely if you want, who cares. The point is if you want to excel at being a ninja then you need to learn how to excel in the use of -all- its abilities, not just the one that make big numbers appear on the enemy.

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Originally Posted by Senfei

The point is, Goad is a skill on your hotbar. It's not up to everyone else to tell you when and how to use it, you need to learn when and how. Paladins and Warriors shouldn't need to be told when to use Provoke, they should just know that "Oh, that stray mob is wailing on our poor healer. Provoke!". Ninjas should just know that "Oh hey this dragoon is spamming doom spike! Goad!"

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This comparison isn't good. It's a tank's job to make sure things are attacking them. Provoke is necessary for them to do that. It's not a Ninja's job to restore people's TP, they just happen to have an ability that does that. You'd have an argument if TP was visible, as obviously a good ninja would glance and see someone is low on TP and Goad them, but as it stands now we have more to pay attention to than what skills other people are using in a mosh pit of spell effects. We have no obligation to use it of our own accord, but once it's asked for we do. So until the devs decide to make TP visible, if you want Goad, ask for it.

We'll just agree to disagree then. Like I said, it only takes me half a second to make the connection between "I should AOE in this situation" and "Oh hey everyone else is AOEing too".

If this too massive a hurdle for some people, so be it.

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Originally Posted by Senfei

We'll just agree to disagree then. Like I said, it only takes me half a second to make the connection between "I should AOE in this situation" and "Oh hey everyone else is AOEing too".

If this too massive a hurdle for some people, so be it.

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Yeah, we could throw it on people when we start AoEing and risk wasting its benefit if the mobs don't live long enough for it to be necessary. Then you're stuck waiting 3 minutes when the time it could be useful could happen before then. It's really not that hard to just make a macro or type "goad." 6 keystrokes, you can do it.

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Originally Posted by Senfei

Use your skills, and use them on your own without having to be asked.

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If SE bothered to fix the UI it wouldn't be an issue, it's an amazingly simple thing for them to do and ninja is not the only class that would benefit from a party member TP bars on the UI since other classes like bards also should have it showing.

All this whining about how ninjas aren't keeping track of what skills everyone else is using and counting how much everyone else's uses their skills or researching the other classes skills or knowing how much TP the other players skills use is amusing to me since it's mountains out of molehills just like when people talk about Peons when on my bard.

My main is bard but also monk and ninja alts of which bard also has TP regen skill and I can count on one hand the amount of times I have ever needed to use it in the entire time I have played it. People tend to ask for it because 99% of the time it is never needed so becomes a waste of time and effort for me to track and count the skill usages of every other player in the group all the time while DPSing or doing other songs. The same applies to Goad and people should ask for that too until SE fixes the UI.

Fact is tanks already have a fairly easy job which gets priority healing plus they just keep aggro, position boss/adds and occasionally move out the way of an attack or switch between MT/OT, but it's seems they can't be bothered to take half a second to click a macro to let someone know they need a goad? Sorry but seems they are the lazy ones to me plus same goes for anyone else who can't be bothered to make a one click button macro to ask for something that is rarely ever needed.

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Originally Posted by LionKing

Tank: Boo hooo. I am sorry, making a macro, and click it when I need it seems so much of a trouble or too much of a effort. Why don't you just read my thought and give me what I want instead, observe my actions, count my skill, knows about my TP as I am performing. Save me a lot of trouble there !!

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This comment is exactly how this whining about ninjas Goad skill is coming across.

My job as a ninja is to output maximum DPS unless tank is doing a bad job or someone else screws up where I have to change my plans, it is not like playing bard in one sense of which bards have many skills which are party buff based and as such is DPS+support as a job. Ninjas job is keeping track on own CD's/DoTs/rotations and not messing up Mudras in an effort to maximize DPS while at same time putting more effort into dodging and tracking boss skills etc than tanks do because of how squishy we are and how we are treated as third class in healing priorities behind tanks and healers.

When SE fixes the UI, then I will be glad to throw out goads to people who need it since at that time I won't need them or want them to ask for it as then I will have been the tools in the UI to track and manage party TP myself whether on BRD or NIN. Currently SE have not supplied the in-game tool to make best use of that skill.

If was missing MP bars I bet many of you hypocrites hating on ninjas in here would be whining about SE not giving you that tool to do your jobs so put yourselves in the ninjas shoes and help fight for SE to fix the UI so we can get the benefit of a party TP bar much like you have an party MP one instead of just whining that ninjas apparently should cover yours asses because your too lazy to ask for something which is rarely ever needed in the first place.

I'm failing to understand why can't people simply type four letters just to let the ninja know they need it. It's not like the bard songs, it has a three minute cooldown. I have no way at all to know if the tank needs TP or not and I'm not about to go like "He has done (enter skill here this many times) so I *think* it would be a good time to use it...)". Just simply ask for it, it's not going to kill you.

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Originally Posted by Delorean

I just don't understand the hostile attitude towards being asked to take initiative.

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It's not a hostile attitude, we have been asking for TP of PT members on the UI since ARR Beta & launch regardless of NIN being added. Their excuse has been "It's too much info for a new player". Which is pathetic.

My main point besides NIN being brand new is we are talking about Duty Finder for Dungeons. There are so many basic & crucial things I've had to ask for in DF content. From topping off PT members on unavoidable AoE, to missed mechanics, or ppl just not doing their job. The OP of this thread at least stated they kept asking for it.

If you aren't getting what you need with a party in DF and don't ask, you aren't going to get it. Maybe it's me, but I don't expect everything to be smooth in DF, especially with a patch just released with new content and a new job. The best way to get NINs into the habit of using Goad period, as I see many not even use it. Is to ask for it then and there, to beat it into their mindset.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

The Ninja rotation is quite complex and has fairly high chance of messing up mudra's when not concentrating on top of being close combat so doesn't have the same luxury as bards and other ranged types...so if you want TP ask for it.

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Isn't good to lie, Ninja's rotation is easier than Dragoon's. You can go on auto pilot for most of it. They even have the luxury of not needing to be positional outside Trick Attack.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

If was missing MP bars I bet many of you hypocrites hating on ninjas in here would be whining about SE not giving you that tool to do your jobs so put yourselves in the ninjas shoes and help fight for SE to fix the UI so we can get the benefit of a party TP bar much like you have an party MP one instead of just whining that ninjas apparently should cover yours asses because your too lazy to ask for something which is rarely ever needed in the first place.

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Also why are you acting like we don't want the TP on the UI? Generalization much?

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

The Ninja rotation is quite complex and has fairly high chance of messing up mudra's when not concentrating on top of being close combat so doesn't have the same luxury as bards and other ranged types...so if you want TP ask for it.

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You forgot to include reading the chat log. Clearly it's much easier to read the chat log, figure out who just asked for Goad, and give it to them than to have basic situational awareness.

If you want someone to ask for Goad, make sure you put it in a macro that has a /p letting them know that they now have Goad, because they can't be expected to recognize it on their own.

Well, as a War, lemme just say. I always can use Goad. If if it's up, I'll put it to use. Particularly in my raid groups where my healers are removing the pacification of Berserk (As that's usually when I catch up my tp). But ya know, I also got Flash (So I ain't too worried about running out). But I'm putting up your slashy debuff, least you can do is Goad me bro :P.