A fundamental flaw with FL (and PvP in general)

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Originally Posted by Gor

i take it you're referring to WHMs

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I want a way to balance those players who use healer as dps because you can not stop players to play healer as a dps role. This is a feedback, not complaint. I have no prefer job, I play Frontline because I am enjoying it. I am currently playing the War and have done PLD, MNK, and BRD. Both WHM and SCH are on my to do list, it would be stupid of me to complain about a specific job. I made a feedback for the balance purpose.

I appreciate your feedback in regard to WHM, it is a helpful information when I tune up my WHM for the Frontline. You also have provide decent amount of information during your crusade of defending the Scholar. Those are really helpful too, but I have to put play Scholar on the bottom of my to do list for now.

You don't need to list me as an arch enemy of the healers, because I am not. If you don't like my feed backs or argument, please do express your for the discussion purpose.

Nice new hair cut by the way.

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Originally Posted by Hailie

You are totally Clueless... you also have been misunderstanding my post for some odd reason..again this is STOP SIGN syndrome
you have been contradicting your in a lot of your post

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Basically you have no argument. The main reason you went all over on me is because I am telling CeveArthu that premade party is not a good argument (page 5 post #50). You automatically labeled me as enemy of the healers. That is act of white knighting. Until you can provide decent arguments, I am done with you.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

Basically you have no argument. The main reason you went all over on me is because I am telling CeveArthu that premade party is not a good argument (page 5 post #50). You automatically labeled me as enemy of the healers. That is act of white knighting. Until you can provide decent arguments, I am done with you.

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That is completely not true, I Made a Statement simply saying THIS ->

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Originally Posted by Hailie

If they dont die from a coordinate attack from a premade party, it might be that their team could possibly be a premade too helping them stay alive.. If you have some REALLY good Vet pvp healers on your team its gonna be just as hard to bring them down.

You nerf healers you will be also nerfing the healers that heal you too

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I was only SAYING THAT IF a PREMADE had a HARD TIME taking down a HEALER it was Possibly because the other TEAM may have been a premade keeping their healer ALIVE!
From that point on YOU took offense to it when i was only making a simple statement it was NOT an attack! you have contradicted your self over and over in TODAY'S posting
NOT to mention you have a VERY hard time comprehending what I have SAID to you in my POST!

THEN you come at me with a PARAGRAPH that had NOTHING to do with my statement!

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

Your first argument is a two edges blade because it can go either way. If you are having issue to survive as a healer, you can also blame on your teammates not providing assistance to you when they are suppose to.

Your second argument also not solid because that would apply to both sides, it is going to even out. The only change is that your Paladin will have to do their job better and all Marauders have to go back to Warriors.

Please do understand. I am not bashing on the healers but trying to point out the obvious fact. I am not expecting a nerf on healing ability but they do need to take away your offense abilities so healer dont feel that super powerful at all aspects. A lot of Frontline players felt healers are too strong simply because healers have all the tools for offense, crowd control, and healing ability. It is too good to be true for a job to be good in all aspects, you have to give up something for game balance.

Also, the survival ability you need in Wolf Den is just too much for the environment of the Frontline in which right now is the main stream PvP in this game. You are not going to be able to increase the PvP population size if you let a job to stay at current OP status. Most of us have WoW PvP background and we all aware of that 30% healing debuff mechanic from WoW PvP. Why is it there? It is simple. The healing ability provide to your for PvE is too strong for PvP because player character will never be able to output same amount of damage as scripted AI boss. If you are unable to see why your healing potency is stronger than dps potency in ilvl80 PvP, you are really just trying to defend your own job instead of being a true PvPer.

I personally do not want to see Sqaure/Enix use same approach as Blizzard's 30% healing debuff and it probably wont need to because there is no morale and Frontline is capped at ilvl 80. I am strongly suggest you try to play other job on the Fronline and seeing other job's PoV instead of being trapped in one job's tunnel visioned world.

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WE can post our opinions JUST like you can even if you don't agree or like whats being said!
Shake and Rob Both posted on your complaints but I see you don't have the Balls to respond back to THEIRS!
instead you want to come at me with all these insults!

I see you play on LEVI I'm sure you know Koltik how about you step into the ARENA with some of us this weekend like we do every weekend and lets see what you got since you know so much.

wrote this earlier but forgot to post

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This is exactly why I am saying both sides are not on the same page. While healer side is defending themselves from pure healer's PoV,

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Pure healer side? I hope you're joking. I've been maining killer in pvp for months on end. While trying out basically everything, and that was back when trying other classes was extremely costly, due to having to pay for each reset with what was at the time, scarce wolf marks.

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The issue is with those players who use healers (Scholar or White Mage) as DPS role.

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Understand that there is a difference between playing their class to the full extent of its abilities, and playing whm as a DPS role which you are saying. You are a gimped DPS. But you are a support based class. A good healer if given the freedom, can support their party in more ways than just healing. This takes skill and awareness, but 99% of the healers who try it, are just dumb and end up screwing themselves because they blew their only means of survival without analyzing the situation first. One on one is different. Healers have too much survivability one on one, don't let that fool you though, healers are brittle, even the best healers can be massacred in seconds if they make a mistake or get over confident or have something valuable on cooldown.

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Turn on your cleric stance and we get? A fully self functional DPS with high CC ability

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Leave them alone and they have this ability, pressure them and they have nothing. Any DPS healers can do comes at the sacrifice of healing if you are being pressured. It's that simple. If you aren't pressuring a healer, thats on you.

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These players mainly show up and attack outpost.

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So a healer shows up by themselves and solos an OP? 1 v 1 yeah a healer will win, but it takes a long time. Healers single target DPS sucks in comparison with actual DPS. 2 v 1? If the players suck it's doable.
But 2 on 1 against any competent opposition and it's all the healer can do to keep themselves alive. You don't see healers 2 on 1'ing in WD killing the dps... they work their asses off to live, thats how it is. A healer doesn't just show up and solo OP's that are even remotely defended (a lone tank is not a viable defense).
So your problem is with retard healers who want to do gimped damage instead of heals and sacrifice their healing ability to DPS.(again, there is a difference between playing it as a DPS and utilizing it to it's full extent, the second takes skill and educated gambles/sacrifice, and can pay off, but it is not easy to do vs good players) And healers who manage to kill multiple bads at an OP? If a healers going around without his party playing as pure DPS as you imply, hes retarded, if multiple people are being killed by a single healer.... I don't concern myself with what retards do and neither should you. Or if your're upset because you like to try solo unprotected OP's, then a lone healer comes in and ruins your fun... well sad day for you, run away and call for backup. This isn't wow.

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If you take other job's PoV, what are these players showing them? Exactly, they would feels healer is so OP.

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So since I play another job, my PoV? I know healers inside out, and I know when and how to attack them. I know how brittle they are, and I know what must be done to kill them through months of playing a killer in WD as well as a healer. I'm also well aware of their strengths and the unlikeliness of killing them 1 vs 1 due to the fact that they have longevity and can afford to sacrifice some healing for dps/CC when in a 1 on 1 situation (doesn't stop me from soloing healers in FL, cause most suck (good ones is another thing)).
I know the scale is tipped for them 1 v 1, and it's highly tipped for them vs bad players, as bad players tend to do them favors, like making them stun immune. They are bordering OP in 1 on 1, but anything 2+ is fair game. I'm not really concerned with how others DPS feel on the matter. All I can do is offer the advice;

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Suck at killing healers? Go learn how to play in WD. Simple as that.

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That and don't expect to come out alive vs a competent healer 1 on 1, just run and regroup, you aren't really supposed to be playing 1 on 1 in FL anyways.

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I am perfectly aware of what I am saying. Thank you.

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Your posts lead me to believe otherwise. That and the fact that you yourself said you havn't played whm or scholar, yet here you are, talking about what they are capable of with impunity.

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Yet, did you even try other job on FL yet to find out their PoV because you questioning my knowledge about Frontline PvP?

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Why do you keep assuming inexperience in others? It's silly. I'm not a healer main, I'm a killer main... only time I played healer more was at the start of FL release because I was sick of being paired with moronic lancers and WHM who'd open with stun.
And yeah, I play a lot of DPS classes in FL.

How about you though, did you even try healing job on FL yet to find out their PoV? Oh wait...

This topic is beyond a waste of time at this point and I'm done posting in it.

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Originally Posted by tehomegaking

Pure healer side? I hope you're joking. I've been maining killer in pvp for months on end. While trying out basically everything, and that was back when trying other classes was extremely costly, due to having to pay for each reset with what was at the time, scarce wolf marks.

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Joking on what? Something wrong with my wording? It is clear as it is. Two sides are simply not on the same page. One side is arguing that healer is fine if being coordinated well while other side is having issue with players playing healers as dps. Don't get defensive, I quoted you doesn't mean I am attacking you. My statement is as neutral as it is. Two sides are having a communication gap. This isn't about you at all.

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You are a gimped DPS. But you are a support based class. A good healer if given the freedom, can support their party in more ways than just healing. This takes skill and awareness, but 99% of the healers who try it, are just dumb and end up screwing themselves because they blew their only means of survival without analyzing the situation first. One on one is different. Healers have too much survivability one on one, don't let that fool you though, healers are brittle, even the best healers can be massacred in seconds if they make a mistake or get over confident or have something valuable on cooldown.

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While it may be true for WHM, but when you spec your Scholar as dps, their dps is not gimped. There is already an alliance of three Warriors + 21 Schoalrs has cleared ST. PLD, SCH x 4, WHM x 2, SMN and BLM setup being effectively used by a PvP community that is much larger than us. Are you going to sweep these facts under the carpet and still claiming Scholar is a gimped dps.

WHM dps out May not be as high as Scholar, but they are still nevertheless able to down dps, just may need few more seconds than a SCH. Not to mention, they are better outpost stealer with fluid aura and repose.

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Leave them alone and they have this ability, pressure them and they have nothing. Any DPS healers can do comes at the sacrifice of healing if you are being pressured. It's that simple. If you aren't pressuring a healer, thats on you.

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We are already not on the same page here. I am talking about those dps healer that play like a bard to check their target at max range with sprint and 2 dots. As long as you lock your target with 40 to 50 m, their health can't regenerate. What do you talking about here? No one is going to leave a half party to defend outpost, that is a waste of resource

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So a healer shows up by themselves and solos an OP? 1 v 1 yeah a healer will win, but it takes a long time. Healers single target DPS sucks in comparison with actual DPS. 2 v 1? If the players suck it's doable.

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What are you talking about here? You under estimated Scholar's damage output. Under ilvl 80, player Health is about 4000, with 2 instant dots, it only takes 20s to remove that amount of HP. I didn't even count in rune 2 yet.

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So since I play another job, my PoV? I know healers inside out.

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Never question you about you as a healer. I am questions you to see this debate from non healer job's perspective. To find out their reason of why they think healer is OP. All you need to do is to get off your high horse and stop calling them carebears. This issue is not something from our community only. Other PvP community is discussing this issue well, just much lesser QQimg and personal attacks.

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Your posts lead me to believe otherwise. That and the fact that you yourself said you havn't played whm or scholar, yet here you are, talking about what they are capable of with impunity.

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Here we go again, same old trick of " you shouldn't speak if you are not a healer". Read previous posts, I have no prefer job. I will try all jobs in an order. WHM is lvl 37, BLM is 42, and SCH is 15. I switch to different job every 100 games or so. Plan to do BLM after WAR, but fine, I will push WHM before BLM. I got full set ready anyway.

waste of time? Same here. The time I waste on this could be used on browsing other resources for more useful information. It is more progressive for me to dig useful information and to be share with those that need it.

http://cdn2.thegloss.com/wp-content/...anging-gif.gif

Up to now for me healing works fine in Frontline, consider that healers are the heart of the party in FL, if they die, usually the party wipe, like the tanks in the endgame content.
And take in consideration that as BLM more than one time I did a (crit) 1900 Damange on healer with a single attack, and usually I gain firestarter III, Surecast->Flare, Manadraw, Swiftcast -> Flare.
and if I'm not alone that healer will be chased a little I hope, so his HP wouldn't be always full, you just have to burst them with 2 or 3 people, and meanwhile stalker other healer (but really, sometimes this isn't necessary).
Remember that they take heavy damange, as BLM, SMN and BARD.

Also in the first post you said that the healing is proportional to attack like "death sentece" that take 6k of damange, maybe I'm wrong, but I am not able as healer to heal it with just a Cure II, I need atleast 2 cure II and maybe a rigene, infact the DPS aren't able to do damange like twintania too xD
(Except for the LB)

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

are really just trying to defend your own job instead of being a true PvPer.

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Hey! Mr Divinemight! since I'm not a true pvper! like you said Let me show you!
I have well over 5300+ matches under my belt and that doesn't include FrontlLine!
since you know so much lets see what you got!

4v4 den matches saturday! 12pst

behemoth is looking to do some set 4v4 cross-server matches starting at 12PST but we would also do some mixed matches if that doesn't work out. we are expecting some of the regulars from ultros and hopefully leviathan if they are ready to go at the least, and all are welcome at any rate!



come visit the irc channel to find out what's going on

http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=ff14pvp

Well the MNK I 1v1 today would think healers are OP but the truth was he did everything wrong and I did everything right. He focused on me instead of my pet, never took out my aether flow, never used pvp skills, and never went Perfect Balanced to get greased lightning up. I on the other hand used Aura Blast, Aetheric Burst, Equanimity, Attunement, and Focalization. Never killed him but held him in a stalemate until help came.

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Originally Posted by Hailie

Hey! Mr Divinemight! since I'm not a true pvper! like you said Let me show you!
I have well over 5300+ matches under my belt and that doesn't include FrontlLine!
since you know so much lets see what you got!

4v4 den matches saturday! 12pst

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http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-conten...2/facepalm.gif

The outcome of the fight wouldn't matter. I'm pretty sure you know that as well, Hailie.

Unless both sides' teammates agree not to fight, and let your characters 1v1, then it will never serve as a point. And even if this was the case, depending on character classes, it still wouldn't be fair as certain classes have advantages over others.

In particular, a WHM and a SCH has an advantage over pretty much every other class when it comes to 1v1.
-I'm sure no one with a functional brain will deny this.

If you do PvP for the case of who's "better", then I suggest using the same classes when/if you duke it out. In a best of 5 or first to 3 wins format to make things more fair than one simple fight. On the low chance both of you listens to this and actually does this, don't do healer vs healer. It's beyond boring and pointless as the winner will be the person who doesn't give up healing themselves >__>