Warrior Tanking

I loved the mechanics but unless they overpowered (lol get it?) the self heal, we'd still be weaker tanks that require gear vs PLD straight mitigation cooldowns. We tanked stuff that PLD did, but required higher gear standards and that's not good.

Bloodbath, SP and IB would have needed massive buffs to be worthwhile.

However, SE made their choice and I still love my WAR. It's been my main the entire time and I'm not changing that.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

A class is defined by its playstyle, not by the mechanics used. WAR has always been defined by Wrath generation and management rather than the self healing that you (and many other people) focused upon to the exclusion of pretty much anything else.

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Actually no. Proactive tanking vs reactive tanking is a playstyle, more than a mechanic.
2.0 warrior was waiting for spike damage to happen THEN popped Inner Beast to recover.
2.1 warrior tries to pop Inner Beast BEFORE the damage to reduce it (which is a lot harder, you cannot simply hold on wrath till something happen, you have to know when something happens and anticipate). This impacts the way a warrior manages wrath, because the goal is now to have wrath built for specific points in the fight.
So the playstyle changed.

Let's say we switch Inner Beast on a 20s CD with no wrath involved. The mechanics would be different (no wrath to manage), but the playstyle of the class would pretty much be the same: chain combos for enmity, debuff, buff and pop special ability.

So the nature of Inner Beast (reactive or proactive) is a playstyle.
The mechanic is building wrath or dealing with another resource like timers, tp or mp.

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Originally Posted by Nalou

Actually no. Proactive tanking vs reactive tanking is a playstyle, more than a mechanic.
2.0 warrior was waiting for spike damage to happen THEN popped Inner Beast to recover.
2.1 warrior tries to pop Inner Beast BEFORE the damage to reduce it (which is a lot harder, you cannot simply hold on wrath till something happen, you have to know when something happens and anticipate). This impacts the way a warrior manages wrath, because the goal is now to have wrath built for specific points in the fight.
So the playstyle changed.

Let's say we switch Inner Beast on a 20s CD with no wrath involved. The mechanics would be different (no wrath to manage), but the playstyle of the class would pretty much be the same: chain combos for enmity, debuff, buff and pop special ability.

So the nature of Inner Beast (reactive or proactive) is a playstyle.
The mechanic is building wrath or dealing with another resource like timers, tp or mp.

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lI rejoiced to see a logical argument against Kitru on these forums, because the fact that it *can* be done resonates in my soul.

However I disagree. The crux of the argument is the same as the 'WAR is built around self-healing'. Inner Beast. Inner Beast is one skill that does not truly define the playstyle as reactive. The only difference between the *timing* of Inner Beast now and then, if the delay of one GCD. You still had to get your stacks up or Infuriate before the big hit, you just fired the IB in the GCD after the hit. Now you fire it off the GCD before the hit. You still have to know the hit is coming, you still have to preemptively prepare your resource (be proactive). Heck, if there are no fights with a timed big hit, you get to use IB even more because you don't have to worry about the overheal. Generally speaking, none of the other WAR skills are as useful reactively (ToB can be used before or after, but using it before prevents the OHKO).

The reason that Kitru says that WAR is centered around wrath stacks is BECAUSE of the last line of your post. Wrath is another resource like timers or MP...which you use to increase your damage, do a big AOE hit, or increase your mitigation. It's also an exclusive resource to WAR, which strongly suggests it's what the class is built around (versus one skill that is consumed by said resource). DRG = Jumps, MNK = GL, WAR = Wrath. Losing the requirement to manage wrath would drastically change the playstyle of the class because those stacks are a limited resource that you have to have up when you need them, and have to make the choice on the proper skill to use them on. If WAR didn't manage wrath, then SC = CoS, Unchained = Extraneous DPS Cooldown, and WAR >> PLD.

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Originally Posted by Zegreiart

I never once mentioned I have issues with managing wrath stacks.

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Identity is mostly perspective; the only "true identity" we have/had for WAR is what SE has given us, WAR is the "show-off" tank. I'm sorry you don't enjoy WAR any more because of a few adjustments, sure it's a shame, but the basic playstyle hasn't changed.

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Originally Posted by Nalou

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Actually, proactive v. reactive is defined by class/job mechanics; while those (mechanics) can define a playstyle, it usually requires a stronger emphasis on the ones that would define so (2.0 WAR was not quite sure what it was, imho). A class's/job's playstyle is defined by the sum of it's whole, at the core of WAR is Wrath.

Wrath, as it is today, is barely a playstyle or a mechanic. Would you do BB and SP combos without wrath ? Yes, you would because you need to build aggro and get that 10% DR on the mob.

Wrath as it is now, is only a way to prevent us from spamming IB and SC. We would juste play the same way if IB and SC shared a single 20s coodown. Wrath is a cooldown in disguise, nothing more, nothing less.

Really, in terms of gameplay (mechanics) and freedom to adjust how you deal with stuff (playstyle), wrath as it is now, does little to nothing, because we're not choosing between building or spending wrath, for different benefits.


And yes, War 2.0 was meant to be reactive, because it was centered around using IB to recover from a big blow, and using abilities like Vengeance and Berserk to finish a 5 stack faster in order to recover (which implied some little management). Thrill of Battle aside, warrior had no proactive CD to pop to anticipate incoming blows and ToB is double-edged because it can also be used to recover.

Paladin was more proactive, with a ton of CDs to pop before damage, and a single one to recover: Convalescence.

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Originally Posted by Nalou

And yes, War 2.0 was meant to be reactive, because it was centered around using IB to recover from a big blow, and using abilities like Vengeance and Berserk to finish a 5 stack faster in order to recover (which implied some little management). Thrill of Battle aside, warrior had no proactive CD to pop to anticipate incoming blows and ToB is double-edged because it can also be used to recover.

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Now you've lost me. Foresight, Featherfoot, Vengeance, Berserk are all (even in 2.0) proactive skills. You weren't using them to counter something the enemy HAD done, you used it ahead of time. I already said ToB could be proactive or reactive. Inner Beast is one skill that's not even Warrior exclusive(big hit + self heal? hrm...Life Surge). The only thing exclusive to Warrior is Wrath.

I'm not even sure why you continue to say if IB and SC were cooldowns nothing would change, because right now, IB and SC aren't on 20 sec cooldowns. It's an either/or situation, with Unchained in the mix. How would NOT having to make that choice of what to spend stacks on not fundamentally change the nature of the class? Because you still use Butcher'S Block?

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Originally Posted by Nalou

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How is managing Wrath not WAR's playstyle? "How do I want to build Warth?: How immediately do I need a full stack? Can I casually build it? Go through your combos. Do I need it very soon? Am I at more than 3 stacks with a Wrath combo ability pre-loaded and/or Berserk ready (or will I not need Vengeance soon?)? Use preloaded combo ability and/or pop Berserk (or Vengeance). Am I at less then 3 stacks and need to use IB/SS now? Pop Infuriate. Am I at full Wrath and don't need to use it now, but soon? Sit on it unless you Infuriate is ready and you won't need it in the foreseeable future."

WAR only had one really reactive ability (arguably 2 if ToB was beneficial to use after the fact) in 2.0 and it relied on wrath management; it was also pretty weak w/o buffs and relied heavily on gear. WAR also had/has 2 proactive abilities (Foresight and Bloodbath) and 3 Wrath management abilities (Infuriate, Vengeance and Berserk).

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Originally Posted by Hitokirinomad

Foresight, Featherfoot, Vengeance, Berserk are all (even in 2.0) proactive skills.

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Yes, but defensively speaking they are (were) really weak. You don't pop Foresight to mitigate a table flip or a Spaceship crash.

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Originally Posted by Skull_Angel

How is managing Wrath not WAR's playstyle?

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Well if you call this "managing" then it's probably better if we quit this discussion because we'll never agree.

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Originally Posted by Nalou

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I'm not sure what you're motioning at with your reply to Hitokirinomad; (unless you were geared out in 2.0) Inner Beast was a very weak ability as well, it required you to use Berserk and/or RNG (critical) to be a decent reactive self-heal. Yes, WAR's native abilities were (and Foresight and Bloodbath arguably still are) weak as well, but they were still part of the tool set.

Without properly "managing" your Wrath you could(2.0)/can(2.1) not properly utilize the strong abilities attached to it. Full Wrath isn't magically there when you need it, the enemy doesn't give it to you before it decides to use it's tank wrecking ability, you need to make sure it is available when it's needed; this has always been the core of WAR in ARR.

There's a reason why they moved the Healing Increase % from Wrath stacks into Defiance. So that you use the system they intended for you to use; Wrath skills.