Tank-specific tips for Extreme Primals

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Good luck with that. I think you, Gamemako and Lemon all down these in statics and simply don't realize how often melee and tanks get instakilled to WW/DWW.

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I often do DF groups, actually. Not PF, DF. The tank dying to double WW is very rare and usually cleared up in one or two mistakes because it's really self-explanatory. Wipes from Slipstream are more common than double WW deaths. Hell, I see tanks more often screwing up OT job than MT job because they don't properly set aggro on Chirada or the spiny, resulting in either the spiny heading back to MT or Chirada heading to the healers.

The tanks quite frequently walk through tornadoes anyway to pull or get into position so its not that much of a issue in the first place. Its not like walking through tornadoes is that much of a pain. And even if a tank screws up its not going to end a raid, its only 2k worth of damage. Just something I noted.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

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You're making some pretty bold assumptions on the three of us. I've been doing Garuda since day one of 2.1. Countless successful and unsuccessful groups: Premade groups, learning groups, PF and DF, you name it. You know nothing about my previous experience with this fight. Don't make assumptions. You don't know what you're talking about.



If you're "trying to figure out a strat were any group could go in and have a great chance", you shouldn't be so closed-minded about other strategies. You're doing exactly what you're accusing us of doing.

So, let's simply discuss each strategy objectively.

The triangle tanking method is a compromise to DPS any way you spin it. You say that it's not because you can melee LB1 Chirada. Do you think that actually changes the fact that it's a DPS compromise? You're doing less damage no matter what. Every strategy has access to Limit Breaks. In fact, it's better to use caster LB on all three sisters because it does more overall damage.

If you've done Garuda with inexperienced groups, you'd realize how often the group fails to meet the DPS requirements and the Sisters phase ends with Suparna alive. You should also realize that maximizing DPS becomes exponentially more important any time there are adds and secondary targets involved.

What I don't get is that you don't trust 2 people (MT and melee) to properly anticipate Wicked Wheel but you trust 4 people to dodge Slipstream and put out good enough DPS to make up for the DPS loss from using a naturally low-DPS strategy?

There are pros and cons to each strategy. And if you're trying to find an idiot-proof strategy where none of the players are required to know when certain moves happen and don't have to learn the actual encounter, there is none. It takes skill to clear content. This is the nature of video games.

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Originally Posted by Cessna

The tanks quite frequently walk through tornadoes anyway to pull or get into position so its not that much of a issue in the first place. Its not like walking through tornadoes is that much of a pain. And even if a tank screws up its not going to end a raid, its only 2k worth of damage. Just something I noted.

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Tornado Express is a lot of fun. I always use it for picking up the MT's sister.

Well, the triangle method I do doesn't even require us to lb chirada, we don't even bother, since the stacks due to the tanks swaping positions by running to the other tank's position take care of that nonsense and the other problem your describing doesn't even exist since only the person who has agro dodges slipstream. The only time the other dps move is for 3 reasons. Downburst is coming which is when they stack, they get friction aoe on them, and when chirada dies so the melee go and abuse the now vunerable surparna.

I've done this with very nooby players and melee with average gear, ilvl 75ish-ilvl80. We had more problems with spiny plumes ie dps kept killing it too soon rather than pulling and surviving chirada's downburst. Infact on a test run a dps actually screwed it up died and the healer just rezed him, The dps loss was negiliable and we were able to STILL kill both of them with plenty of time to spare.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

What I don't get is that you don't trust 2 people (MT and melee) to properly anticipate Wicked Wheel but you trust 4 people to dodge Slipstream and put out good enough DPS to make up for the DPS loss from using a naturally low-DPS strategy?

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It's not about trusting anyone. It's about trying strategies that avoid instant kill possibilities. In your method, if the MT messes up his CD timing, he dies and the party wipes. Also, if there's a melee, and they don't watch for WW, they'll die in one hit. Also, the MT having to keep track of two slipstreams, watch for DWW and watch spiny stacks is a ton of responsibility for a single player. Sure, the strategy works, but so does some of the others, like the triangle one, without the possibility of wiping due to the tank being instantly killed.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

like the triangle one, without the possibility of wiping due to the tank being instantly killed.

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And then 4 DPS stands in front of Chirada thinking it was Downburst while it's actually Slipstream and you gotta facepalm asking why.... There's no idiot-proof strategy. If your tank can't keep track of double slipstream (which in itself is tracking double WW) AND watching spiny stack, they're not going to get far.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

And then 4 DPS stands in front of Chirada thinking it was Downburst while it's actually Slipstream and you gotta facepalm asking why.... There's no idiot-proof strategy. If your tank can't keep track of double slipstream (which in itself is tracking double WW) AND watching spiny stack, they're not going to get far.

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Downburst puts a giant targeting reticulated on the player. You don't even have to predict it or watch rotations. You have one DPS pull (Bard without quelling would probably be best) and have the other three stack on Chirada's butt. The Bard dodges Slip stream and then everyone stacks on the bard to spread downburst damage.

Also, I went into some DFs yesterday with the intent of asking the OT to pick up spiny at the beginning of twisters so they could provoke Suparna off of me once Chirada was dead. I had a few people scoff at me (stating that they normally have the OT provoke the spiny once it gets to two stacks on someone), but I explained that the purpose was to protect the melee from wicked wheel and they went with it. Although there were a few fails trying to get everyone to do what they were supposed to, I did have one group were the OT and I synced up pretty well and we were able to get Garuda down to about 5% (with two melees in the group) before we wiped (one of the healers stepped into spiny too quick and died and I think everyone went into panic mode). So, if the OT is on the ball with provoking spiny each twister phase promptly, this method is very melee friendly, I'll definitely give you that. Although we did have a couple close calls due to spiny being at 2 stacks on me and provoke being down after the OT provoked Suparna. Luckily, Garuda teleported each time and we were able to kill the spiny without getting to the third stack. If the DPS were a little slower, this probably would have been an issue.

Another thing I'll give you... tanks that die to DWW simply aren't using their CDs properly. I used Rampart/Foresight/Stoneskin/Flash (Garuda and Suparna can be blinded) in the first sister phase and then Rampart/Sentinel/flash in the second, followed by rampart/Hallowed ground in the third and I never dropped below 2-3 K after a DWW. I've done this as my BLM a lot and I've seen a LOT of tanks die in the first sister phase due to DWW. It made me nervous to even try to MT it. But, proper CD use will easily get you through 4 sister phases and by then, Garuda should be dead.

For Paladins wondering about predicting it, if your DPS is decent, Suparna should start friction right before they teleport. As soon as you see Friction, pop Rampart/foresight, once they teleport, run to a side to avoid feathers and Stoneskin yourself. As soon as they reappear, pop Sentinel or Hallowed Ground if Sentinel is down and then run over and Flash. Get this down and the only way you'll ever die is if the healers aren't topping you off during the teleport.

I know what Chirada does before casting downburst but my point was that someone not knowing that particular detail will run into Slipstream. I know how it's done, just saying that some people don't so triangle method or whatever won't save them from that.
Also, teleport is triggered by 50% HP on Chirada after sufficient time so if you see your DPS is slow, expect double WW to come before teleport. You'll have 20 seconds between Spiny put second stacks on you and applying another stack so even though it seems close, I have never seen it hit 3 stacks on the MT when I do this method. The teleport is triggered by time, not Garuda's HP so even with slower DPS, it would still not be an issue.

If you prefer the Triangle Method and it works for you, that's fine. It's a tradeoff: Less responsibility on the MT, more responsibility on the DPS. Lower DPS output overall. Maybe it's because I usually do Garuda on Tank that I've never perceived Tanking be an issue to a point where a complete strategy overhaul is required.

The main barrier to me is that the vast majority of my server is used to the 2-tank method and have been successful with it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And if it IS broke, the group simply removes the broken pieces (shitty tanks) and replaces them with better pieces.

1) Convince seven people to change from the strategy that they're familiar with to one that isn't necessarily better (arguably worse). Risk failing due to the learning process that comes along with re-learning a fight.

2) Teach the tank when to use his defensive cooldowns so that it catches the Wicked Wheels. Replace him if he's incompetent.

This is an easy choice to me.