Thief>Ninja/Dancer Class/Job

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Originally Posted by Nahara

Exactly this. SE removed the arrow market specifically because they did not want to tie a class's entire value to a consumable. If a class came out that fought with throwing daggers/needles/shuriken/whatever, the "weapon" players would actually be equipping would be some kind of ammo pouch on their waists/hips (and the design of the daggers/needles/shuriken/whatever would change depending on what ammo pouch you equip).

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I would expect a class that uses thrown weapons as its primary combat methodology to actually just ignore the whole concept of "carry a lot of them" and just look like they're carrying 1-2 copies of the weapon in a normal combat stance, similar to what WAR, PLD, and LNC use with the weapons that they hurl at their foes. It gives a better aesthetic in general since you can actually see the weapon when you're not throwing it.

I highly doubt they'll do a straight "throwing weapons" class because there's not much variation you can do on throwing weapons that isn't just a copy of what ARC already does.

Agree on the aesthetics, doesn't matter if your throwing a dagger, a shield, an axe, an arrow, or a fish. That's just fluff.

Not sure if I'd write off the "Throwing Weapons" as a class though. Give it an interesting mechanic or style and I think it could....

...hit its mark.

Yeah, I went there.

man you people have some time on your hands!

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Originally Posted by Kitru

I highly doubt they'll do a straight "throwing weapons" class because there's not much variation you can do on throwing weapons that isn't just a copy of what ARC already does.

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To be honest, there's not much you can do with any new Job due to how this games limited roles and restrictions on certain mechanics this game has. Giving a stealth to a dagger class wont make it mechanically much that different than a monk or other positional melee classes we receive in the future.

However a new Dex based ranged damage dealer will offset all the Strength ones we have at the moment and the many ones we are for sure going to get in the future. Having Archer and Musketeer as the only two ranged physical Dex classes might be a bit disappointing.

What I was really thinking is combining Ninjutsu and throwing weapons. Using magical ninja art scrolls to perhaps inflict status effects or give small buffs to itself or allies while using ranged bladed throwing weapons.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ninjutsu

Some Ninjutsu in Final Fantasy history.

I think combining both throwing weapons and Ninjutsu can make a unique Job that's different from Archer if done right. Literally Ninjutsu has endless possibilities on what it can do.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

I would expect a class that uses thrown weapons as its primary combat methodology to actually just ignore the whole concept of "carry a lot of them" and just look like they're carrying 1-2 copies of the weapon in a normal combat stance, similar to what WAR, PLD, and LNC use with the weapons that they hurl at their foes. It gives a better aesthetic in general since you can actually see the weapon when you're not throwing it.

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Agreed. Hypothetically and best case scenario, such a throwing weapon class would always have at least one of the ammunition drawn (like how Thancred holds his knives) so players can actually see what the ammunition looks like, and it would only briefly disappear while using a ranged ability. SE did something similar to this in XI when it came to some thrown weapons, like Shuriken; they were given actual in-game models that appeared in the hand briefly before they were "thrown". If used in XIV, a new one would appear in the hand immediately after, and all in all, the ammo pouch would still need to be somewhere on the body (so it at least didn't look like you were pulling them out of your ass or some invisible pocket).

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I highly doubt they'll do a straight "throwing weapons" class because there's not much variation you can do on throwing weapons that isn't just a copy of what ARC already does.

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Also agree, as this was something I spent the last couple hours thinking about, but as Calypsx mentions above, it wouldn't be too unreasonable to suggest a mix of Ninjutsu "spells" to mix in with the actual weapon throwing. Could be a fun way to introduce some new status ailments like Oil, which could boost the damage of another ninjutsu spell that dealt fire damage (restricted to the ninjutsu, since that would make it a must-have for any group that had a THM).

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Originally Posted by Calypsx

What I was really thinking is combining Ninjutsu and throwing weapons. Using magical ninja art scrolls to perhaps inflict status effects or give small buffs to itself or allies while using ranged bladed throwing weapons.

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The problem with this is that, in all cases, the Ninja magic and throwing weapons that Ninjas get have always been secondary functionality. The primary damage mechanism of a Ninja has *always* been straight up stabbing people. Building a Ninja class/job around throwing/magic would be like building DRG around *only* jumping or building PLD as a healer role.

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Literally Ninjutsu has endless possibilities on what it can do.

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I'm not sure how you can say that the possibilities for Ninjutsu are endless because there are some pretty obvious boundaries upon what is actually practical to bring under the descriptor of "ninjutsu", since it's an explicit discipline in real life. You can push the boundaries upon the real world limitations of Ninjutsu by playing upon the mystical themes, such that Ninjutsu actually has access to unique ninja magic, but there are certain points where you're going to have to stop because it just stops looking like what you were originally intending.

No matter how you design a Ninja, it still has to adhere to the basic archetype of the Ninja that exists. You can emphasize certain aspects over others, but there are still limitations, especially since we're dealing with a series that already has a pretty strong ninja archetype. A ninja that doesn't straight up stab people is going to be in conflict with that existing ninja archetype.

As I've said before, time and time again, it's *possible* to do all kinds of crazy things if you're just looking to do proof of concept, but proof of concept is a far cry from actual practical implementations. It's *possible* to create a ninja tank, but it's not a practical implementation as far as the archetype is actually concerned (this is just one of the many ways that FFXI demonstrated how poorly designed it was). "Ninja as ranged/caster" is *possible* but it operates in contradiction to the established canon concerning the class.

Just because you can come up with a reason for a class to be implemented as a given role/build doesn't mean that it's a good idea or the best feasible implementation for it. There are internally consistent explanations for RDM and NIN to be tank classes, but I can pretty much guarantee you that they're not going to happen because, while they're *feasible*, they're not the most appropriate for the class based upon its historical archetype. The most appropriate build for a ninja, based upon the series' historical archetype is for it to be a fast, light weapon using, sneaky melee with some bonus ranged/magical functionality.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

The most appropriate build for a ninja, based upon the series' historical archetype is for it to be a fast, light weapon using, sneaky melee with some bonus ranged/magical functionality.

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Sneaky melee fits Thief more than Ninja. The only game Ninja could even stealth in was Tactics and even then it didn't' have a back attack. Thief however does have a backstab attack and stealth in a game and is a far more cunning and sneaky Job than ninja ever was.

We also have a main protagonist, Zidane Tribal of FFIX, who is a Thief, it's not a irrelevant Job that should be written off because Ninja exist. It should be its own Job as it's incredibly iconic and loved by fans. Making it just a class is only going to make fans sad.

If anything they are probably considering making a Thief Job over Ninja first.

Would rather see something like a Rogue or Scout become a Thief/Dancer

Perhaps later an Assassin can become a Samurai/Ninja with a proper region and lore that supports the origin of those Jobs. The Samurai using one Katana as a tank, and the Ninja using two since it has bonuses in past games for using two weapons and being a dps based on quick agile and speedy attacks and ninjutsu rather than stealth. Yoshi did say he can tweak Jobs like Dark Knight to be very much different than the class it comes from if needed, so two Katana's isn't a stretch.

That's all the input I can really give on the topic, it all boils down to opinions at this point.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

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I'm not sure how you can say that the possibilities for Ninjutsu are endless because there are some pretty obvious boundaries upon what is actually practical to bring under the descriptor of "ninjutsu", since it's an explicit discipline in real life. You can push the boundaries upon the real world limitations of Ninjutsu by playing upon the mystical themes, such that Ninjutsu actually has access to unique ninja magic, but there are certain points where you're going to have to stop because it just stops looking like what you were originally intending...

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*pokes* video game. Its just as real as naruto, or the actual fantasy's that naruto draws many of its names from. Its not real. Goemon may have been real, but in pop culture today, his powers are anything but. And in no way am I saying we should tranform into half naked ladies.... unless people are cool with that, then I am too, but they could get pretty creative.

I do agree with your description of ninja. If ninja were going the DD route, an up close light armor heavy STR
attacker, probably with a darkness based attacks/attributes, ninjutsu, and maybe throwing attacks (that dont consume
anything, cause we're past that I hope... *throws relic lance for 9999* "sh!t......")

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Originally Posted by Calypsx

That's all the input I can really give on the topic, it all boils down to opinions at this point.

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The only argument that I ever see for THF to be a job instead of a class is the same one you've given here: because people are emotionally attached to the idea of THF being on the same level as all of the other jobs. In practical terms, when you examine the capabilities of a THF in the FF series and its relationship to NIN, if you look at it without being constrained by said emotional attachment (which basically makes any examination pointless because you've already made your decision regardless of what you find), THF doesn't work as a combat job in ARR.

The only reason that THF qualified as a job on par with the others in previous FF games was because "Steal", while being a non-useful combat mechanic (as in, it doesn't actually help you win a fight), provided an explicit indirect advantage in drastically increasing your resources and oftentimes providing you with gear before you would otherwise have access to it. Unless you implement THF as a DoL job wherein it's all about stealing stuff from enemies (since DoL jobs are explicitly designed to actually provide you with additional resources), it's actually a stretch to include THF as a class without adding a bunch of things that have historically been unrelated to THF. Everything else that THF provided has been out-of-combat functionality which, for a combat class, is out of place in an MMO.

Conversely, NIN has *regularly* been combat class that stands on its own (via Throw and the Ninja magic) while virtually always operating as either a direct or indirect upgrade to THF. The direct upgrades are comparatively rare, moreso because of good design than mechanical requirement (in a single player game, you don't want to have one class render another redundant by providing the same capabilities only better; you want there to always be a reason to use an "inferior" class as opposed to just using the uber-classes for everything, generally by affording some degree of utility or secondary benefit). The indirect upgrades are multitudinous: in any game where upper level jobs have prerequisites, Ninja requires Thief (either as the only requirement or as the *main* requirement), and then is provided with stats that are a direct upgrade from what Thief gets. As such, if you were going to go straight for Ninja without bothering with any other jobs along the way and only getting the minimum required, Ninja would only have Thief abilities to utilize, which means that it's an indirect upgrade: it's got better stats, is required to have a goodly portion of Thief but not much of anything else (if at all), and uses most of the same gear.

THF>NIN is, honestly, using a more justifiable version of the logic applied to the design of ARC>BRD. Archer/ranger (which are basically the same class; there are no games that have both Ranger *and* Archer and their trademark capabilities are basically the same/interchangeable; FFTA2 *could* make a case for it with Hunter, but Hunter is a *direct* upgrade of Archer since it gets access to better weapons and a largely similar suite of abilities that are simply more potent) has always been a job on par with THF. While archer turning into bard requires a certain amount of mental acrobatics (strumming a harp is *kind* of like drawing a bowstring...), thief into ninja has historical precedence as well as a much more cohesive logic behind it since they both use much the same fundamental combat archetype.

Small note on the Pilfer/giltoss combo level up.

If the Mug Trait is gained first, you could go Mug -> Gil Toss -> Pilfer.

It's not perfect, but if it's early enough you could get away with a usless mug trait for 1 level until you get the Gil Toss on the next level?

Also, was Quick Stab -> Flurry supposed to be a two shot combo only? I meant to ask that before but I think I got distracted.

Right now, if I'm reading this properly, you have the following combos.

QuickStab -> Flurry
Backstab -> Cheapshot
Backstab -> Ambush -> Eviscerate