Where is your evidence that they would not summon Zodiark if warned?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xirean
Also didn't you kind of admit a false premise here. What evidence do we have she wasn't preparing? She mentions preparing as soon as we tell her. Stopping Hermes is preparing. She fails. She mentions preparing after we leave. She fails. So you're assuming Venat's behavior here based on what?
Which, it's fine that is your opinion. I'm just asking the same questions you ask.
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10-19-2023, 05:25 AMTurtledeluxe
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10-19-2023, 05:32 AMTheodric
I don't think it particularly matters what framing is used in regards to Venat. Her actions led to the purposeful genocide of her own species through a twisted form of racial replacement and eugenics.
Though as the many sources linked throughout this very thread showcase, Venat was fully aware of the consequences of her actions and went ahead with them anyway. The attempt to take agency away from her is little more than a rather blatant attempt to try and downplay the consequences of her actions.
It's alright, really. Nobody here is going to think any less of someone who is fond of Venat just because she engaged in atrocities. Much in the same way that someone can enjoy Garrosh and Sylvanas from World of Warcraft or Wesker from the Resident Evil franchise whilst still acknowledging the blood that stains their hands.
Though if one's enjoyment of a character stems from them being branded overwhelmingly correct and never criticised or held accountable for even the most reprehensible of actions then I imagine that's where a lot of people start raising eyebrows.
Thankfully after the false accusations of 'sexism' I think it's safe to suggest that certain posters will say and do anything in order to move the goalposts away from accountability for Venat. The latest buzzword, it seems, is now 'agency'. -
10-19-2023, 05:36 AMTurtledeluxe
Some people are just unfamiliar with sarcasm and need to grow up. The latest buzzword is genocide. And I've already dismantled that. Also being fond of the story of EW =/= being fond of Venat or atrocities. Strawman doesn't work here.
It's fine to dislike Venat, but when you have to rely on shock value, poor arguments, theories derived from side stories, etc it just makes you look silly. Haters keep confusing themselves with critics or analysts. -
10-19-2023, 05:43 AMNayukhuutYou haven't, though. You may think you have, but Venat's actions are pretty textbook. She deliberately caused an action that wiped out an entire people down to their culture and even history. That is pretty textbook.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
It's okay to like characters who do bad things. Heck, it's even okay for the heroes of stories to do bad things. In this case Venat certainly committed an awful act, and even if it was for the greater good (this is still debatable to me), it still resulted in the loss of an entire people who had thoughts, feelings, and ambitions before she wiped them off the face of the map. -
10-19-2023, 05:56 AMXireanFirst off I don't need to source if they will or won't summon Zodiark after being informed. I don't think they would but that's not the point. The point is them getting the chance to try something else by having both more time and information. If that is shown to be the case and it still ends in failure, ok. That's fine. They had the chance to try which is all I want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
If for whatever reason you think there are no other things they could try then I would direct you to the existence of Meteion. She is an Ancient creation that can interact with and manipulate dynamis. Because she exists at all that means there is the potential for something else like her to be created with a different function. Which of course might fail and that's ok. At least they had the chance to try. This is what is meant by Venat having the only agency in the situation. Because she is the only one afforded a choice to make.
Also I find it rather hilarious that you suddenly ask for a source when your go to source has effectively been "Yoshi P said I could make it up."
Also also you didn't dismantle anything about the use of the word genocide in this conversation. Your opinion is that I'm using it for shock value. Clearly you won't accept that I'm not doing that, but that's not a dismantle. -
10-19-2023, 05:56 AMTurtledeluxeI did. What you just typed isn't really genocide. The sundering is employed because of Zodiark, tempering, philosophies, etc. It isn't just because Venat has something against mankind at large. Just because it affects mankind at large doesn't make it genocide. I'm just going to be nice here, think whatever you want man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayukhuut
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10-19-2023, 05:57 AMTheodric
I think these excellent panels from Attack on Titan showcase the Venat situation rather well:
https://i.imgur.com/x5vAK79.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/nr52dom.jpg
It also isn't 'shock value' to draw attention to the consequences of a particular character's actions. That certain posters cannot refute the evidence and sources provided to them without resorting to bizarre insinuations of everyone not mindlessly lapping up the story as 'haters' says it all, really. I must admit, I don't really pay much heed to such phrases myself.
As it happens, a lot of people in this thread are pretty intimately familiar with the game's established lore but their utmost priority isn't bending over backwards to run damage control for Venat.
A lot of us here are actually pretty fine with antagonists and protagonists alike doing terrible things. Though when there's little to no acknowledgement of the cost of the actions in question then it simply comes across as performative and lacking in tact. I don't think it is unfair to suggest that if a writer seeks to embrace heavy themes then care should be taken when engaging them.
Certainly, during the previous Fan Fest the new lead localiser acknowledged a need to 'do better' in regards to how certain elements of the game could stand to be handled with more dignity. Who knows? Perhaps she was referring to Venat's horrific actions, at least in part. -
10-19-2023, 05:59 AMXireanWhy don't you explain what would need to happen for you specifically to accept the use of the term genocide in this context?Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
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10-19-2023, 06:01 AMXeronia
Holy heck we hit 900 pages? It has been a journey hasn't it?
As for the current topic I too would love to stop talking about Venat/timelines as it is clearly going nowhere. Personally my opinion remains largely unchanged and the writing of all of Endwalker has been as the title suggests lackluster and the patch content may have made that go from lackluster to terrible after Zero and how little I cared for her with how much the plot pushed the idea friendship and basically converted her into a scion instantly. -
10-19-2023, 06:16 AMTurtledeluxeSo it's a false premise. We don't have any evidence they weren't given a chance to try, in fact we were given the opposite. Venat is warning them in the abstraction you are shown. Just because she doesn't say "Meteion did it" doesn't mean she did nothing. So I guess your issue here is that she didn't warn them enough? I dont know what this is based on. I assume the abstraction was meant to give us an idea of what happened over days or weeks. Your opinion is that Venat waited until the very final second of a sacrifice to Zodiark to appeal to the summoners? That was for dramatic effect. I don't think that sounds plausible or consistent with any of her behavior prior to that. I think all of you are taking advantage of the way everything is shown to paint a certain picture. "Welp this five minutes is the whole final days so there it is, no choice". We know it was more than five minutes because more sacrifices were being planned after the summoning and that is part of what pushed Venat in the direction of the sundering. There was some kind of dialogue happening but we don't know the timetable exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xirean
While we don't have confirmation on all the rules of time travel in XIV, for *this instance* we are clearly told we can't change the fate to come. And the reason Elidibus says what he says is to prevent the past tampering to break the future. What you are talking about works on a conceptual level for general arguments but it doesn't work for XIV and the story being told here bc they set a rule in place that wouldn't break the game.
Whats hilarious is that you don't know how definitions work, can't find a better word to describe what happened, and are seemingly triggered because you operate just as much as on theory as everyone else.