You uh... might wanna go play the game, my dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
If memory serves, the Re[in]carnation side of the crossover involved extensive input from FFXIV's writers. In any case, it's considered reliable insofar as the information it provided about things in FFXIV are concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vahlnir
Yoko Taro's team probably had more creative control over the NieR raids in FFXIV, ironically.
Different interpretations and values notwithstanding, I believe part of the disconnect stems from some people, myself included, thinking more deeply about the story than what the devs accounted for. In fact, I believe Yoshi-P even said as much at one point. It's not even really about Venat for a lot of the naysayers. It's more about how poorly things stand up to scrutiny. It's in human nature to value that which is shown over that which is told. For my part, I look at the story, specifically Venat's part in it for the sake of our discussion here, and I see a character that wasn't selfless or pure. I see a character that unilaterally decided on a course of action for an entire world and its inhabitants based on information about the future gained from a time traveler. A character so headstrong as to believe her way was the only way, and she confirmed this for herself by subjecting her people to a test they had no chance of passing without the information she withheld. This? This I'm fine with. Sometimes people are like that. I am not bothered by Venat's nature or even the actions she took. The story is what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe
The problem I have is with how the narrative frames it. Wiping out all life on a planet, whether well-intentioned or not, is pretty messed up in just about any conceivable sense. It makes sense a lot of characters wouldn't get overly bent out of shape about something that really didn't affect them - we see this play out with people IRL all the time, not being moved by ancient, or even comparatively recent, events that had nothing to do with them. So this is also fine. I find it odd the Scions weren't even slightly bothered by it, but so be it. That's how people roll. What I found myself unable to reconcile specifically with Venat wasn't even Venat herself. We're told we should feel X way about the character and the events surrounding it, but what I saw in the game left me with a very different perception. If you want me to think something was an absolute necessity, then show me that. Don't tell me it and show me a bunch of stuff that'll turn it on its head under even cursory scrutiny.
Like I said, Venat as a character is fine. Her part in the narrative would've worked fine for me with better framing and more showing than telling. I'm well aware the majority disagree with this take, but I kinda don't care. It's my take, and while I am open to having my mind changed, I've yet to see anything that would.
As for people spending a year fighting it out, I might note that most people tend to react very poorly when someone tries to tell them their opinion, whether well-founded or not, is stupid. Not just wrong - stupid. The more you try to tell people they're stupid, a bad person, etc. for having a dissenting opinion, the more they will dig their heels in and keep defending their position. This is doubly true if it's about something they care about. FFXIV is something a lot of us have dumped far too much time and money into. It's something many of us used to thoroughly enjoy. People that care about something will want to be outspoken when they feel it's being harmed, or in the case of a game going in a direction they perceive as bad for its health.
As for me, I've already given up on the game at this point. I know the direction it's going in won't change, and I'm aware I am no longer its target demographic. I really only hang around because I'm keeping some friends' estates from getting demolished while they are off serving, and for the most part I only poke my head in these debates because I am bored out of my mind at work. :P Otherwise, I just comment in suggestion threads and the like in the vain hope at least some measure of the game I used to enjoy so thoroughly can be brought back.
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10-19-2023, 01:49 AMAbsimiliard
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10-19-2023, 02:38 AMBaconBitsQuote:
Originally Posted by Carin-Eri
"Stop talking about it. "Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaliesto
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...cfceaa0c1ec5a& -
10-19-2023, 02:39 AMTurtledeluxe
After reviewing developer statements I found an excerpt where Yoshi P answered the question about time travel directly. He indicated that what happens with Elpis a closed loop, but suggested to form your own theories after pausing for a second. I think they could be saving it for later due to the reflections being untraveled. But based on his comments these are my two cases atm:
- The loop is self-sustaining, always happened and always will happen.
The problem with assigning agency to Venat in this case is that she doesn't have a choice. It's a fate vs free will situation. It also possibly puts some accountability on the player for causing the summoning of Hydaelyn in the first place as we gave her the idea when we created this loop. Technically it means we created our MSQ timeline altogether as we affected the future by visiting the past. You can't have your cake and it eat it, too. Elidibus statements about time in the game also push us toward this idea. Although small changes are tolerable, meaningful change cannot occur because what happens in the timeline has happened and will always happen.
- If meaningful change were to occur i.e the final days are averted it creates a paradox where the player may never come to exist.
This necessitates that the Elpis visit is an alternate time and there is some original timeline where non informed Venat acted, and this is the Venat the game could be reflecting. All of the hints about people remembering the player and even the Morbol thing work with the alternate timeline idea because it's possible that those are the effects of our actions being observed before we actually caused them. This is moreso what I was theorizing because i think the original events happened in an original past where we were Azem. Additionally XIV already uses this type of time travel in other cases (with multiple alter alternate timelines in fact).
And you may ask well why does everyone love Hydaelyn yet the time travel affected all these other things like Argos etc? Because as I have have said it seems like the alternate timeline gets conjoined into the MSQ original timeline very late in the game. So if dark Venat exists, her future got closed off by the conjoing. And before someone tells me this can't happen-- it has already happened in the game (G'raha mentions at some point a future of a timeline being closed off related to the 8UC).
You're welcome to your opinion but it's not exactly clear. We need more information. And when and if the devs do decide to clarify I'm highly doubtful they're going to lean into a scenario where Venat is some kind of problematic killer.
Just saying "you didn't see it" "play the game" isn't an argument for all of the reasons I just said. Arguing about Venat's actions really in any case is entirely pointless, even without director clarification. Because frankly if some original Venat does exist, then you are an Ascian apologist because their solutions involved planned and detailed instances of massacres following the summoning. They were basically planning a harvest. Not to mention they wanted to eternally avoid suffering, which is naive and dangerous. If original Venat doesn't exist and it's always dark Venat, she had no choice bc of how linear time works in that case. -
10-19-2023, 03:22 AMTheodricYeah, it's becoming a bit much to say the least. I preferred her back in the days of ARR when she was the character willing to speak up and deliver some harsh criticism even to her own allies, including calling out Merlwyb for her handling of the Kobold and Sahagin predicament.Quote:
Originally Posted by BRVV
It's also hilarious that she's 'died' the most times out of the core cast and has no meaningful lasting consequences...even her blindness isn't really a drawback since it doesn't stop her studying, moving around or engaging in combat.
Then again, Thancred losing the ability to manipulate aether doesn't really hold him back any either. There's such desperation to maintain the status quo at any cost which just leads to everything becoming so very predictable and safe. Then whenever something darker actually does happen, the game - and many of the game's more vocal players - just quietly seek to brush it under the rug.
That reminds me of the time in Shadowbringers that a pregnant woman was brutally murdered by the Warrior of Light and Scions. Then again, the pregnant woman in question was a sahagin - so there was quite a lot of people who sought to downplay the act and push it as an 'unfortunate necessity'. A familiar tactic, it seems! -
10-19-2023, 03:46 AMXirean
@Turtle
On the topic of timelines. It's certainly possible that an OG timeline existed with no WoL in Elpis visit that may have played similar to current events. However as it stands it strongly looks like what we are playing through is a stable loop. This isn't even a new idea in fiction; CW The Flash already did that. The difference though in XIV is that while we cannot solidly confirm how many timelines there are, there's not really a lot of hints either.
We know we have 8UC where Graha came from.
We have the Elpis zone.
And we have the timeline we play in on The Source, First, and Thirteenth. It's technically possible that there was a timeline we left behind when we went to Elpis and came back, but aside from that being a vague idea, what clues are there that such a thing is the case?
Like believe what you want but this is kinda why I attack ideas so much. I want to know where the idea is coming from. What in Canon clue do you have that supports the idea? -
10-19-2023, 04:20 AMAbsimiliard
It's called a bootstrap paradox. For it to exist someone or something (it can even be raw information) must travel into the past and change things in a way that both leads to and requires the aforementioned time travel to occur in the first place. It has no defined beginning or end as a result. At a base level the key players in maintaining a bootstrap paradox operate in ignorance and therefore lack agency, but this can change when one or more parties are somehow made aware of what's happening. The paradox becomes consensual the moment even one of the participants necessary for its perpetuation is afforded knowledge and therefore agency, although the prospect of breaking one of these opens some very migraine-inducing cans of worms.
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10-19-2023, 04:22 AMTurtledeluxe
On the subject of emotional manipulation, that is purposely using inflammatory language even after several people have kindly informed you why it's not appropriate regardless of your story interpretations. It's using words when the definition doesn't even work and failing to provide, at minimum, a definition that makes it the ideal word to use and instead saying "play the game lol".
It is arguing based on total conjecture that you have a timetable and a task list of everything that happened between Elpis and Final Days. We don't have a calendar nor do we have evidence Zodiark fans were capable or willing to change what would fuel their long term survival. Zodiark was a costly and regressive solution that went out of their control. It allowed for some amount of survival but denied evolution. It's unclear what effect an Aether devouring summon without an opposing element would have over time. Pointing to Zodiark's function on the Moon does not work as he is suspended in stasis.
If anything the game shows us in shorthand form Venat did tell them how to change and they didn't want to, not only pre tempering but certainly after.
Just acknowledge she gives reasons in thr trial about offerring choice and rendering mankind into a state that would allown them to take Meteion down (not just get to her but properly interact with dynamis). Saying Venat is bad actor because she lacks justification based on the abstraction or what she said in the trial is valid. Saying she's a bad actor because of theoreticals isn't helpful.
If you think the Ancient's were amazing and reasonable and had some arbitrary amount of time where they would counteract the Final Days and take Meteion down, it is valid but it is conjecture that can't be argued. It's a shield to hide behind when there are better ways to discredit Venat that simply have to do with her justification and how well it did or didn't go for you. -
10-19-2023, 04:30 AMTurtledeluxeThe Canon clue is Yoshi P pausing and saying "actually, it is important that you form your own theories here". I mentioned that already. It's not that the alternate timeline is confirmed, it's that the way the story plays out it's possible, and the game has toyed with time as such in other instances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xirean
As far as the closed loop, I acknowledged that it's one of two possibilities so I am not sure what you are asking. He mentioned it by name. The problem is assigning agency when it doesn't work in this case as it means what Elidibus told us-- that meaningful change can't occur and the final days are fated to happen.
And for me a key thing that argues in favor of the closed loop argument is the way Venat speaks in the abstraction sequence and the trial when she discusses her motivation. It isn't pride, or enjoyment, but rather surprise and resignation. It's less "hah, I created a mire of torment" and more "I did this and it's even worse than it sounded".
As I've said elsewhere, fate is a strong component of every FF story as well and changing fate is brought up frequently in the battle with Meteion, but less for lore reasons and more as a battle cry type of thing.
Keep in mind though that even if it is a closed loop it doesn't bar the possibility there is a "first visit" point. It depends on the writers and what rules they are working with. -
10-19-2023, 05:03 AMTurtledeluxeYes but the one with agency in this case is us, the time traveler. And we possibly create the bootstrap paradox with Hydaelyn. Can we really say where the idea of Hydaelyn came from? It's the player, in the absence of an og timeline. All of this is highlighted in the conversation where we confess the truth to Venat and Co.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
In relation to Venat, when I say lack of agency that does not mean ignorance. It means lack of agency. She is not capable of changing what is fated to happen even if she tries. Whether she accelerates or deescalates.
And it's worth noting for Venat she's the most anxious to change the future and believes the WoL immediately. She's aggressively interested in changing fate but she doesn't. She goes from "Nothing is impossible. This I have always believed. And if Hydaelyn is indeed me she would believe the same." to "Faced with Zodiark I had no choice but to render him asunder".
Also she has no way to avert the start the Final Days. As soon as we get close, Meteion goes nuts and Hermes does the deed. Imo this is just further evidence that even if someone is actively working on a solution, it's going to happen anyway one way or another. -
10-19-2023, 05:20 AMXirean
The situation is a loop and the idea of Hydaelyn exists because it's a paradox with no visible start. That's perfectly fine, the issue there is that Zodiark does not have to be fated. If the convocation is properly warned then they don't have to make him. This is the main issue I take with Venat and the idea that we can't change the timeline. The moment it was hinted that she wouldn't catch Emet up to speed on what he forgot because they might need Hermes I wanted to scream at the screen. Zodiark isn't a permanent solution and I don't think many would argue otherwise. He was the best of a bad situation. Which is why the argument has been "If you inform the convocation of the danger completely then they can probably come up with a better solution." What was Venat doing before the final days started? If it wasn't preparing the convocation for what she knew was coming in this time loop, then I blame her for Zodiark and everything after.