Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

I kinda like the current changes with the lilies and aoe heals it adds confessions to all players better than the previous version, though the timing on where to use PI is up to us awesome whm :) still divine benison :( if throwing my lalafell body to mitigate some damage i will do it.. but i dont wanna die.. :)

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

So now you've just proven you don't pay attention either. *Slowly claps*

I think I can safely say that I rest my case.

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Don't duo or solo POTD do you? Thought so. Mobs can be slept for quite a few floors. But it seems.. what would you know about that? Absolutely nothing.

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Originally Posted by Seraphyna

Don't duo or solo POTD do you? Thought so. Mobs can be slept for quite a few floors. But it seems.. what would you know about that? Absolutely nothing.

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The context of my comment was that the person in question quoted me in saying I thought sleep was good for PotD when it was your comment to show that the poster in question doesn't pay attention to what's going on - not as a means to insult your particular post.

I don't use sleep much but I can definitely see the merit of it in PotD. I'm so used to not using Repose that I forgot PotD actually makes quite a few exceptions for thanks for reminding me that, lol.

I'm very happy with the changes to Cure 1 and Plenary Indulgence in the latest patch. I think the last rough spot on WHM is Secret of the Lily II. A percentage of cure crits is so small as to be invisible and I don't like having another job whose mechanics push them to specifically stack crit to power a job feature.

I'd love it if Secret of the Lily II's cooldown reduction was based off HoT ticks, like an inverse of BLM's Thundercloud; like, maybe it'd be a 10% chance per Regen tick an a 3% chance per Medica II tick (the numbers could be massaged up and down to balance it, and maybe it'd only read a maximum of four MII ticks each interval in order to make sure that the feature isn't stronger in 8man duties than 4man duties).

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Originally Posted by Ferrinus

I'm very happy with the changes to Cure 1 and Plenary Indulgence in the latest patch. I think the last rough spot on WHM is Secret of the Lily II. A percentage of cure crits is so small as to be invisible and I don't like having another job whose mechanics push them to specifically stack crit to power a job feature.

I'd love it if Secret of the Lily II's cooldown reduction was based off HoT ticks, like an inverse of BLM's Thundercloud; like, maybe it'd be a 10% chance per Regen tick an a 3% chance per Medica II tick (the numbers could be massaged up and down to balance it, and maybe it'd only read a maximum of four MII ticks each interval in order to make sure that the feature isn't stronger in 8man duties than 4man duties).

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I was surprised that they didn't do anything with Secret of the Lily II on 4.05. However, I think White Mage is on a very good spot right now, I think buffing it would make it somewhat overpowered...

Still funny that WHM gets no love this patch. Again ^

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Originally Posted by Sansa78

Still funny that WHM gets no love this patch. Again ^

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I can't think of any issues WHM currently has besides PI stacks maybe having too short of a duration. Increasing it to 15 seconds would make it feel much better.

What issues do you think we still have? IMO WHM hasn't been this good since Gordias.

EDIT #1: I guess I can consider our level 68 trait another issue, due to relying on a 20% proc from a crit AKA super low chance. Maybe just make it into a spell that lets us consume Lilies at will for minor damage or healing? I just want a spell that lets me use Lilies for a minor bonus when all of my buffs are on cooldown, feels sad to waste lilies when I need to do big healing for larger pulls.

Whm is still going to have the same issues lack of utility when players gear up so why take one over astro/sch after progression is over.

Secret of the Lily trait #2 needs to be changed already. As for Secret of the change it to something that isn't CDR or just delete it doesn't add anything of value to Whm anyway.

Maybe remove Lilies from Cure II and add it to Regen I don't know why this has not already been changed Rng is no longer involved.

Would also still like To see the Healer cross role looked at. Wait who am I kidding they don't even look at this thread. They don't care.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

I can't think of any issues WHM currently has besides PI stacks maybe having too short of a duration.

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Replace stone skin for Divine Benison is fully retard decision. I can´t shield to my MT pretty times we need because I don't have lilies, that I just spent on Assize or Tetra. Not even I look lilies more, its pretty invisible for me now.

I don't think WHM needs huge buffs, but I hope they realise that no one's really jazzed about having some stupid flowers instead of something flashy and fun. I mean, CDR is powerful. But it's invisible power- we can't tell whether Assize is coming off CD early because of lilies or the trait or both, we just know if we can use it or not. And PI is still really crappy to use. Yes I've done savage, I've been to enrage on V3 a few times with my static. I still hardly use it and when I do, it's always lame. Like oh heck I don't have literally any of my other spells and I need something now, guess I'll use it. Which is rare. Either let the stacks last longer or give them more oomph if you're going to saddle us with this for the long haul, please?

WHM is fine. But I won't rest until SE acknowledges that lilies are lame from a player perspective and that PI is a mistake.

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Originally Posted by Sansa78

Still funny that WHM gets no love this patch. Again ^

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Outside of Lilies being an counter intuitive mess against optimized WHM play, I don't see why WHM needs any more than some QoL changes. I think most WHMs agree that the Lily system is a weak addition but it doesn't mean the overall WHM kit is weak.

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Originally Posted by Rei_Zero

Replace stone skin for Divine Benison is fully retard decision. I can´t shield to my MT pretty times we need because I don't have lilies, that I just spent on Assize or Tetra. Not even I look lilies more, its pretty invisible for me now.

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This doesn't make any sense. The biggest complaint about Lilies is that you never need to plan to use them, but now you're talking about a time where you need to shield your MT, a situation that is nearly always something you can plan for. If you know you're going to need to shield your MT, then...plan to use your lilies. You don't need to get 3 lilies to use Benison. You only need one. Benison is superior to Stoneskin.

And if you're running WHM in an organized raid anyways, you're going to have a scholar or noct AST with you anyways who can also shield. I can't think of any mechanic in 4 man content that requires a shield. I also can't think of any content in the DF 8 mans that requires a shield.

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Originally Posted by Sansa78

Still funny that WHM gets no love this patch. Again ^

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WHM has gotten a lot of love since SB has launched. God forbid we miss a patch.

I know they've gotten "some" stuff. But nah, they fixed what they shouldn't have even been a problem

...are you saying that Plenary Indulgence was fine pre 4.05? That lilies should have remained RNG off Cure 1?

Lol no, but that stuff shouldn't have been an issue to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Sansa78

Lol no, but that stuff shouldn't have been an issue to begin with.

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That's a very strange way of looking at it. By that logic all changes "shouldn't have been an issue in the first place".

All changes would be much further along if they literally just bite the bullet and make a test server for class balance changes so players could test this stuff before it goes live.

Almost all the minor problems would of been solved but no they refuse to make any meaningful progress. They could even reuse assets and just not show anything outside of battle changes heres to dreaming though.

The changes from 4.0 and 4.05 to the lily system was a first step but honestly it was a step in the wrong direction.

Maybe once you hit max level and actually have to use your single target heals more it begins to work as intended but currently I'm wasting time casting cure (a spell which is only really needed when focusing the tank) to get my 3 lillies for my Assize CD and trying to make sure I don't waste it on Assylum n Tetra because whilst they're useful the Assize CD reduction is better, and I can spend more time DPSing or HoT/AoE healing to keep everyone up.

So... my recommendation is simple. Revert the lillies to be a 15-25% chance on any healing spell cast. this then removes the requirement to focus cast with cure/cure2 and becomes a general bonus can be watched for and used as and when without becoming a central mechanic that has to be focused.

Whilst a lot of people seem to be complaining the Lilies aren't exactly an inspiring mechanic. They don't need to be a central mechanic of the class. Just an added bonus. We already have enough spells and options to keep things lively. The lilies are just a little extra on top.

EDIT: also remove the confessions and make Plenary Indulgance also part of the Lily mechanic.

I'm going to steer off into a tangent and whine about something that has nothing to do with game balance, because I couldn't quite put my finger on why something else seemed weird. There's something a bit wonky with job lore, and it doesn't come from a comparison with the two other healing jobs. It's Red Mage and Paladin. In previous FF games, they dipped into white magic without specializing in it. They accessed lower level spells but ditched the higher level ones for either access to black magic (in the case of RDM) or a heftier health pool and defensive abilities (in the case of PLD). That's pretty close to the case in XIV; Red Mages study both disciplines without leaning too heavily toward either, and paladins are swordsmen with some holy magic sprinkled on top.

For class balance reasons I get why the following odd situations exist. It's why I don't think there's really an answer to them and what makes it a sort of annoying issue that's ultimately in the category of first world problems. Take Red Mages as an example. You'd think from a lore perspective they'd learn Stone, Stone 2, maybe 3 right? But Verstone costs less mana and has more potency than Stone 4. In some respects, you could call it Stone 5. White Mages, supposed specialists in white magic, spend 64 levels training and honing the stone spell into four separate versions. Red Mages, the ones who train white magic with a split focus, learn a far superior version of the stone spell at level 30. Again- class balance? I get it. A DPS class needs to hit much higher numbers in the end. Job lore though? It makes white mages seem like bumbling morons who can't figure out their own discipline if a comparative novice can just whip out something better from their school of magic on the first try. Paladin is similar. Holy Spirit may not be an AOE, but it has a shorter cast time, costs less MP, and does way more damage to a single target. Requiescat is basically nerfed Divine Seal Largesse but better because it affects damage as well as healing, has a damage potency, and has a shorter cooldown. They even get a trait called Divine Magic Mastery, something you'd think hmmm, maybe the masters of white magic would obtain. The odd one out here is Vercure, because it's pretty comparable to Cure. Clemency not so much, that's much closer to a Cure 2 on steroids.

Scholar and Astro don't really have the same lore crossover history with other classes like White Mages do, so this situation doesn't really come up in the same way with them. It's a petty thing to complain about, but from a lore perspective it's really weird and kind of grating that when red mages and paladins dip into the white magic pool in XIV they don't dip in for the rudiments of the discipline, they make off with copies (or even direct upgrades!) of the really powerful stuff. Why spend your time communing with the forest when picking up a fencing saber will teach you more about earth magic than years of studying the earth?

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Originally Posted by bidaum92

So... my recommendation is simple. Revert the lillies to be a 15-25% chance on any healing spell cast. this then removes the requirement to focus cast with cure/cure2 and becomes a general bonus can be watched for and used as and when without becoming a central mechanic that has to be focused.

Whilst a lot of people seem to be complaining the Lilies aren't exactly an inspiring mechanic. They don't need to be a central mechanic of the class. Just an added bonus. We already have enough spells and options to keep things lively. The lilies are just a little extra on top.

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I'd question why the lily system is needed at all. To me, it just seems like something added under the banner 'every class needs a gauge'.
No they don't.
What every class needs are smooth synergy game play mechanics. I'd throw out the lily system completely and focus on returning some of the lost diversity to the class.
We didn't have much prior to 4.0 but even that little disappeared with Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

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I completely agree!

Divine Benison doesn't seem to help much, and Plenary Indulgence never sees use because it's available when you least need it.

I think our gauge should have focused on making our DPS rotation more interesting.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

I'd question why the lily system is needed at all. To me, it just seems like something added under the banner 'every class needs a gauge'.
No they don't.
What every class needs are smooth synergy game play mechanics. I'd throw out the lily system completely and focus on returning some of the lost diversity to the class.
We didn't have much prior to 4.0 but even that little disappeared with Stormblood.

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I'm not sure I follow you when you say we don't have much diversity.
Is super strong AoE and single target healing, best single target dps, amazing aoe dps, sleep, knockback, aoe STUN, insta full heal etc etc... not enough diversity?
If I'm missing something please let me know!

The mechanics are all there IMO just need better synergy.

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Originally Posted by bidaum92

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I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it feels like there's a lot of overlap between WHM and AST.

So, I have some questions/thoughts!

Can't an AST in Diurnal accomplish most of what a WHM can do? In practice, Holy, Cure III, Asylum, Assize, Thin Air, and Benediction are what separate WHM from AST, but I've noticed they all have two things in common: They do more for the WHM than the party as a whole, and they're non-essential for clearing content. There doesn't seem to be anything in the WHM's toolkit that is a "must have" for the group.

I think people are asking for something that makes us desirable over an AST beyond Holy, which is useful more in dungeons than anywhere else, and Cure III, which is situational.

AST even seems to have an answer to Benediction in the form of Lightspeed. It may not be as MP efficient, but it accomplishes the same goal, which is all that really matters to most people.

Edit: Thanks for clearing that up, Caduagm! See his post below.

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Originally Posted by Lynesse

AST even seems to have an answer to Benediction in the form of Lightspeed. It may not be as MP efficient, but it accomplishes the same goal, which is all that really matters to most people.

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AST's answer to Benediction is called synastry. While Lightspeed is the answer for assize/cure 3.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

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Several things needs to happen to the Confession system for it to be a strong addition to the WHM kit.

-The timer needs to DISAPPEAR.
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100% agree.

I said it many times probably, but i think we should gain lilies by throwing stones, not cures. Not only that'd make more sense gameplay-wise, but would also give us some synergy between healing and DPS (being highest dmg healer).

(Then we can rename lilies to "stones" and DB to Stoneskin lol)

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Originally Posted by bidaum92

I'm not sure I follow you when you say we don't have much diversity.
Is super strong AoE and single target healing, best single target dps, amazing aoe dps, sleep, knockback, aoe STUN, insta full heal etc etc... not enough diversity?
If I'm missing something please let me know!

The mechanics are all there IMO just need better synergy.

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Diversity of the class was diluted due to mechanics being moved to the Role list. Diverse is defined as 'very different, unlike others'.
It didn't help that Ast was based on cloning Whm skills, duplicating a number of mechanics. 4.0 continued down this path.

Crits are love, Crits are life, more Lilies = more crit rate please.

Why did you necro this thread?

Let it die.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

Why did you necro this thread?

Let it die.

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Why? They fixed almost zero of the concerns raised in it and keep buffing Scholar. Cooldown reduction is still hot garbage, still have fewer skills, zero utility, the "pure healing" niche isn't really a niche, Scholar still has higher damage in real content, Benison is still a spray painted stoneskin sold back as a new skill, and secret of the lily 2 is still one of the stupidest traits in the game.

Is WHM still considered the training wheels for healers?

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Why? They fixed almost zero of the concerns raised in it and keep buffing Scholar. Cooldown reduction is still hot garbage, still have fewer skills, zero utility, the "pure healing" niche isn't really a niche, Scholar still has higher damage in real content, Benison is still a spray painted stoneskin sold back as a new skill, and secret of the lily 2 is still one of the stupidest traits in the game.

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This the only thing that was fixed was Cure I became 100%, and PI became useful in like 1% of the content. The rest of the Whms concerns were ignored.

They...did fix little on WHM, but...PI has become a bit of a boon in Royal City. I'm not promoting that WHM is fine...but...I'm saying PI is gotten more useful. for now.

I don't think we're going to see substantial changes at this point. The focus is on SCH since it was in such a rough spot until now, and even if WHM has a few lackluster traits and abilities, it's still the best healer for progression raiding or as an introduction to healing for newbies.

I don't know if I want SE to touch healers again though. They've been doing some cautious and sensible buffs to SCH but their vision for WHM doesn't really match mine.

P.S. PI is still meh outside of O4S and the first week or two of new raids, please do SOMETHING with it.

My main issue left with WHM is our level 68 Trait which basically only procs 5% of the time for 5 seconds off of Assize's Recast, which is barely noticeable. I've had the idea of a small healing/DPS buff when you have 3 Lilies. It'd be great in situations where you're capped on Lilies but have no CDs to spend them on.

I think PI just needs a duration increase to 20s, or at minimum 15s. WHM easily has the best AoE healing; PI doesn't need to heal more.

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Originally Posted by Rawr18

Is WHM still considered the training wheels for healers?

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No. White mage is the most straightforward healer but that doesn't mean it's training wheels for the other healers. The other healers have different mechanics and have to be learned on their own.

Now, if by 'training wheels' you are asking if white mage still is considered the simplest healer; I'd answer, what does it matter if one job is less complex than another? It's a silly metric to use to judge a class. Be more concerned about how well a class performs in your current content! All three healer jobs do their jobs well. So, if you like playing a white mage, go for it!

P.S. A Roegadyn healer! My gosh, I feel like I hit the lottery. You guys are rare!

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Originally Posted by Rawr18

Is WHM still considered the training wheels for healers?

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It is only in the sense that CNJ is the only healing class available to play when you start the game. It's considered the most straight forward healer because it doesn't really have any sophisticated gimmicks to get the job done. No card mechanics, no shields or fairy to micro manage; just raw heals and damage spells along with ways to increase their output and potency.

As Kacho stated, each healer has their own mechanics that need to be learned and honed before becoming proficient. Each has its own challenges. It just so happens that anyone coming into the game wanting to heal would either have to take ACN to 30, or take another battle class into HW and unlock AST if they don't want level CNJ/WHM.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

*snip* It just so happens that anyone coming into the game wanting to heal would either have to take ACN to 30, or take another battle class into HW and unlock AST if they don't want level CNJ/WHM.

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Hi Gemina!

Exactly. Because of the current system of classes progressing into jobs, conjurors are the first healer players encounter in the game. For some Twelve-forsaken reason, some people take this to mean that conjurors and white mages are the equivalent of Fisher Price "My First Healer"™.


Nothing could be further from the truth. Conjurors and white mages are the reactive* healers of FFXIV. That's a specific skillset and does not translate well to a proactive** healer. Reactive healing is not easier than proactive healing. It is, however, more intuitive.

Anyways, I feel I might be preaching to the choir here. This being a white mage thread and all. *laughs at silly self*




*You take damage. They throw a heal your way.
** You are about to take damage. They throw a shield your way to block it.

Confessions needs to be changed. 10 seconds for a confession? Thats only useful if the party is taking too much damage or in savage content, but Medica, medica II, and C3 is enough to top everyone off without the use of Plenary indulgence... I mean, yea...really strong heal bomb boom. But outside of that, using an entire class mechanic toward one skill is stupid

Also, divine benison should not be tied down to the Lily system...imho