Take from it what you want. Tank Stance VS Tank Stance with near equal HP the WAR did enough DPS over Paladin during a 10 minute span vs 200 Seconds on PLD that you could add two healers who DPS to make up for WAR's ability to survive over PLD. Take into consideration what that would mean if SE buffed WAR to the point that it could survive the same as Paladin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak
WAR, Healer, 2 DD 570 DPS
PLD, Healer, 2 DD 510 DPS
At least with 2 Healers on WAR and given movement etc during fights, it's probably within 5 DPS as things are now.
Of course I could do another parse without Defiance up but it would only show an inflated DPS number VS normal usage. I did consider that the Pacification allowed War to rebuild TP and yet it still did much higher DPS. Would you rather I re-did my PLD Parse into a 10 minute span with allowing my TP to refill to show how quickly it would drop into the 80-90 DPS range, considering it only hit ~110 in a 3 minute span before bottoming out on TP. I could also do a 3 Minute Warrior parse, because it was still in the 190 DPS Range before it smoothed out over the next 7 minutes.
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11-10-2013, 02:29 AMJudge_Xero
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11-10-2013, 09:03 AMRuminateAny idea why your PLD's auto-attack DPS is almost half as high as the WAR's auto-attack? If all equipment is equal, 10 more strength will not increase auto-attack DPS by +80%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Xero
The auto-attack raw damage looks strange as well. The only way I was able to reproduce ~50 raw damage per auto-attack in Shield Oath was by using the grand company weapon.
Edit: n/m, i just noticed the reason. You said your WAR has 5800 HP in defiance. Your PLD has 5400 HP in Shield Oath. In other words, your WAR was decked out in DPS gear. I'm not sure what conclusion you can come up with, with that kind of testing. -
11-10-2013, 09:43 AMPessimiStick
Not to mention that 200 DPS for a similarly geared DD is pretty bad. I do way more than 200 DPS on my BLM with +1 and full DL.
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11-11-2013, 02:07 AMJudge_XeroQuote:
Originally Posted by Ruminate
I will quote myself to show the relevance of my statement. By having two healers who DD on top of healing you will have more of what Warrior needs, heals. Because of the nature of their DOT style damage skills they can swap in and out of Cleric Stance while tossing up DOTs and Heals. You will also lessen the amount of MP a healer will use, as their DOT spells are less than the average Cure spell. So they are using less MP while DOTing and their cures are divided between the two of them. By increasing STR you will also increase War's self heals over a VIT build. With their 25% more HP in Defiance, even with a STR Build it still has a decent HP pool.Quote:
the WAR did enough DPS over Paladin during a 10 minute span vs 200 Seconds on PLD that you could add two healers who DPS to make up for WAR's ability to survive over PLD
So STR War >= VIT PLD without any buffs - other than the whole X # of Buffs in Coil raising the damage above War's Max HP Value. But if your party has good DPS and finishes the fight on or before 5 stacks then it doesn't matter anyways.
Toss up a parse. I would like to see how far above 200 DPS you are for comparisons sake. I know it will be pretty high on a test dummy especially if any AOE's hit the other dummies. + not having to move out of danger etc. 200 Second Parse would be fine. Warriors DPS would be 210 ish with +1 and only 200 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by PessimiStick
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11-11-2013, 06:04 AMLeiron
Your results are confounded because you are using an unequal gear set/ stat allocation.
There is absolutely NOTHING that can be said with these results.
You cannot compare the DPS of the two when they are of unequal gear.
Redo your test using equivalent gear. -
11-11-2013, 09:06 AMJudge_XeroThe reason I did the comparison that way is because the extra STR plays into WAR mitigation through HP absorb. Paladin just has it's cooldowns and STR would only increase enmity gain/damage at the cost of HP. War already gets 25% extra HP through Defiance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
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11-11-2013, 02:48 PMCurlyBruceExtra STR plays into PLD mitigation through Shield Block mitigation also. PLD and WAR have the same effective HP. Shield Oath -20% damage is the same as having 25% more HP in terms of how much damage you can take before dying. I don't understand how people still don't get this. Any gear setup a WAR can use a PLD can use as well, and can in fact survive better because their cooldowns are better for survival. Do your parse again with PLD using the same exact gear as the WAR and with 30 STR allocation or whatever you had and then make an argument about DPS difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Xero
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11-11-2013, 02:52 PMPhreakThis children is why you never trust a guy that paints half his face.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Xero
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11-12-2013, 11:16 AMJudge_XeroThat's true. The extra STR would probably get PLD an extra 1% total mitigation between Block and Parry. But that's only on skills that can be blocked or parried.Quote:
Originally Posted by CurlyBruce
PLD + Curtana @ 402 Str is ~ 130 DPS for 200 Seconds in Shield Oath.
This would only give you a party DPS of ~470 with two healers.
This would give you a party DPS of ~530 with one healer, but you would only have 4500 HP as a buffer, so a lot of heals would be wasted.
So 510 DPS using a STR War, with two Healers who do 40% DOT's and 60% Heals, for a total of 140 DPS and 120% Heals and a single DD seems pretty decent. Would an extra 20% Heals be equivalent to PLD's buffs?
Damage to Tank
1000 DPS to WAR
800 DPS to PLD
Heals to Tank
Healers x 2 960 (120%) HPS to War (Defiance Buff + 15% Heals) 1104 HPS
Healers 800 HPS to PLD
So, that setup would put Warrior in a bit better situation than Paladin in just Shield Oath. Paladin still has it's CD's Rampart and Sentinel which will reduce the damage from 800 DPS to 747 DPS in 180 Second Intervals.
So since both will be taking less damage than heals that's good. What if they were taking 1200 DPS
1200 DPS to WAR **excess of 96 Damage
960 DPS to PLD (Reduced to 896 on 180s Intervals) **excess of 96 Damage
So given a STR War vs VIT PLD they have nearly the same HP in the same tier of gear. So in that scenario, they would die at the same time.
I don't include Convalescence because they both have it. PLD's is 30% compared to WAR 20%, but with the Buff from Defiance and 120% more heals with two healers it's really splitting hairs. Also, Bulwark is about as effective as Bloodbath.
What Warrior is missing over Paladin is they Hallowed Ground type Skill.
Thrill of Battle, while absorbing damage outside of Max HP is not quite the invincibility that Paladin gets.
It is on a 120s CD vs 420s which makes it more useful, but it does take a lot of co-operation between healers to be most effective. Say 7000 HP in endgame for a STR War. 8400 HP with ToB
Stoneskin @ 3s CD (Maybe 2.5s with endgame WHM gear?) the most you could cover is 9k Damage (@ 6 stoneskin) between two healers during the 10 second CD. Add in the psudo HP from ToB and you would have 10400 Damage over 10 seconds. So it would only be invincibility below 1040 DPS @ 120s intervals and would require two White Mages. Since one of each healer is probably most optimal, you'd normally see ~8400 Damage blocked over 10 seconds, so only 840 DPS. So, not really close enough to the normal HPS of 1100 to even warrant the Stoneskin use. -
11-14-2013, 01:40 AMTechroThis is the separation between casual and pro. some are more skilled than others, contrary to popular belief, you can not do anything you put your mind into..some people are just better at somethings than you or me. Accept this and move on. I'm not trying to be an @sshole..just saying the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illya