What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Rather than doomed because Zenos isn't there to be a platform for us, the timeline is doomed because no one go back in time. This means venat won't be able to tag meteion in elpis, probably won't even know her existence. Then again, the only timeline that isn't doomed due to this time loop is our current timeline, since going back to unsendered world require the modified CT + elidibus being trapped there.

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The 8UC is just a mess now with the context of EW. Someone in another thread said: "8UC is basically a complete 'bad end' for Venat right down to people again trying to return to the past over going forward in the future (and by his very nature G'raha is the biggest thematic walking contradiction in the entire universe) and despite the short story existing to try and suggest some hopeful future for it, the storyline of Endwalker would imply that it's completely doomed."

I thought the Zodiark part came a little too early and didn't have the giant impact I was hoping for. The build up though was good.Still was cool and fun to see.

I just don't get Zeno's much..I have more of a personal connection to Edda Pureheart than I did Zenos.

Then he just pops out of nowhere...trained in the room of spirit and time.

Now Valens van Varro. That's a guy I can dislike and have no problem wanting to take out. I'd even raise him afterwards so I can do it again..and again.....and...again.

The new Final Days happened as a result of Zodiark dying due to Fandaniel's shenanigans, which may not have happened in the 8UC timeline. Besides not having Zenos as his buddy he wouldn't have a chance with Emet and Elidibus still around. An undisturbed Zodiark would have kept doing his thing and shielding the planet against Meteion.

Speaking of the 8UC timeline and Zenos, remember that originally the WoL would have won the duel against Elidibus possessing Zenos's body, something that didn't happen in our current timeline because we got pulled by G'raha Tia. While it may have been possible for him to possess his now twice-deceased body it's also possible you can't beat a dead horse too many times.

I'm trying to remember exactly how the threat of Black Rose ended, can't remember if it was Zenos or Gaius's group who destroyed the last batch. There's a lot to cover in SHB's story to pinpoint the exact point.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

I'm trying to remember exactly how the threat of Black Rose ended, can't remember if it was Zenos or Gaius's group who destroyed the last batch. There's a lot to cover in SHB's story to pinpoint the exact point.

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Fortunately, I just finished going through ShB again, it's "Vows of Virtue, Deeds of Cruelty" at the end of 5.1. Estinien tells you in the Rising Stones: "Until order is restored--assuming it even possible--we needn't fear an imperial reprisal. And for reasons of his own, Zenos took it upon himself to rid the world of Black Rose."

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Fortunately, I just finished going through ShB again, it's "Vows of Virtue, Deeds of Cruelty" at the end of 5.1. Estinien tells you in the Rising Stones: "Until order is restored--assuming it even possible--we needn't fear an imperial reprisal. And for reasons of his own, Zenos took it upon himself to rid the world of Black Rose."

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Thanks, it took me a while but I checked that part and then also others during vanilla SHB and SB patches. I'm trying to figure out if Black Rose in the 8UC timeline should have indeed been destroyed or not by the non-Scions as they did in our timeline, as was proposed a couple of pages ago. In our current timeline it wasn't only Zenos but also the team of Gaius, Estinien and friends who destroyed all of the Black Rose factories.

Trying to untangle things: G'raha's intervention begins by pulling Thancred, preventing him to undergo his "war of subterfuge" about Zenos being an ascian. This may not have affected things with Black Rose but let's just remember this is where the timelines split.

Later he pulls Alphinaud and Gaius delivers his body to us, also informing us about Black Rose. This may have contributed to its final destruction, as we were prepared for it sooner rather than later (even though Maxima had alerted us about a "new weapon" Gaius's intel was more detailed). If Alphinaud wasn't pulled to the First we wouldn't have encountered Gaius there.

Then in the duel against Elidibus-Zenos at the Ghimlyt Dark we get pulled momentarily, preventing us from slaying that body and from having a decisive victory against the Garlean army. From what's told to us later having pushed further to squash the empire would have forced their hand to use Black Rose (even though G'raha tells us that winning or losing that war doesn't matter and leads to the same end). In our current timeline they still planned to use it eventually but they may have used it sooner in the 8UC timeline, before all the factories could be destroyed.

Also related to that same duel, in a post-credits cutscene the real Zenos laments at the scene of the duel that "had I been but a step faster...", so in the 8UC timeline he could have encountered us there because we wouldn't have been spirited away (in spirit by G'raha and in body by Estinien) and have his desired rematch. Of course in his technically-ascian status where death is not enough to get rid of him he could have hopped back to his old body which was lying right there, or keep trying in other bodies. All kinds of crazy possibilities arise at this point, but it could be that he either gets satisfied or somehow dies for real and he wouldn't be there later to destroy the Black Rose factories.

Later on Tataru recruited Estinien to our cause to compensate for the absence of the Scions (and us). He went to destroy the Black Rose factories thanks to the intel we previously got from Gaius at The Burn. There he meets Gaius himself and they team up. It's possible that Gaius would have been more successful by going with him instead of Alphinaud, who would still be with him in the 8UC timeline. Then again, they show that Alphinaud did destroy with him the only factory known at the time.

Also Emet-Selch was distracted with us in the First instead of helping prevent the destruction of Black Rose. Considering it was his chosen method for the next calamity he would have helped defend it.

So while there are contradictions elsewhere in the story I don't think Black Rose existing in the 8UC timeline is necessarily one of them. While we know little of what happened in it it's entirely possible that it wouldn't have been destroyed.



Edit: added more clarity to why I was looking into this in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

They were, just by virtue of not being as well equipped in general. A sundered can turn into one monster, an ancient can produce many.

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Doesn't really matter since they delayed the final days for thousands upon thousands of years with Zodiark. Which is also the only reason the sundered were able to live. I'm not convinced they couldn't have found a way to fix things themselves in that time, either. But I guess it doesn't matter since closed time loops mean there's no ability to experiment.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Honestly they should of just not introduced time travel to begin with.

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This, and the ancients.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

Doesn't really matter since they delayed the final days for thousands upon thousands of years with Zodiark. Which is also the only reason the sundered were able to live. I'm not convinced they couldn't have found a way to fix things themselves in that time, either. But I guess it doesn't matter since closed time loops mean there's no ability to experiment.

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Don’t forget the fact, the sundered final days is in some ways pretty bad. Considering it results in the full erasure of a soul with no hopes of reincarnation like usual.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

Doesn't really matter since they delayed the final days for thousands upon thousands of years with Zodiark. Which is also the only reason the sundered were able to live. I'm not convinced they couldn't have found a way to fix things themselves in that time, either. But I guess it doesn't matter since closed time loops mean there's no ability to experiment.

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The story quite openly hints at a number of methods after all.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Don’t forget the fact, the sundered final days is in some ways pretty bad. Considering it results in the full erasure of a soul with no hopes of reincarnation like usual.

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Indeed - had it actually run its course, and had everything not already been put in place to hunt Meteion, it would've resulted in total planetary annihilation with no means to restore it.

I’m still bothered by the fact that Venat sunder the ancients so that they can interact with dynamis easily but never once considered the cons that comes with it. I also don’t understand why sunder them then never told us about dynamis in advance so we could actually learn how to manipulate it properly before going head first into Meteion. If Meteion didn’t conveniently flex on us on the ship and if Thancred didn’t fight back we would’ve lost instantly because we never learned how to interaction with dynamis even though that was part of the reason why Venat did what she did. Unless the ability to interact with dynamis is just giving a whole bunch of nothing speeches and praying for the best outcome. Power of friendship…. Yay.