What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Yeah I stopped taking the story seriously when I got to The Plenty.

Ancient, infinitely wise and all powerful beings killed themselves because a space bird asked some questions.

Uh huh.

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Yeah, it's bizarre. Looking at our own species we've barely scratched the surface of what there is to see and explore in regards to our own planet since there's a whole lot of mysteries to uncover such as what exists within the deepest reaches of the world's oceans. Remnants of previous civilisations are also discovered quite frequently as well.

When we eventually explore all there is to find in regards to our own planet, we can safely look at what can be found elsewhere amongst the planets both near and far. It's a safe bet that other species would follow a similar trajectory instead of deciding to just kill themselves because they're bored. Even if some decided to do that, it's not like every single member of the species would opt to do as much. Especially if they weren't a hive mind.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Yeah I stopped taking the story seriously when I got to The Plenty.

Ancient, infinitely wise and all powerful beings killed themselves because a space bird asked some questions.

Uh huh.

EDIT: No wait, the Ea were arguably worse.

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I mean of the Ancients were wise and all powerful why did they fail to account for someone like Hermes or a creature like Meteion. For all their bluster, they were still very mortal and prone to blinding pride.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

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It's the penalty of being a successful mmo: they're going to start tripping. I personally see them as tripping and trying to get back up while others see them as falling so hard they exited the other side of the planet. It stops being criticism when personal attacks get involved because person A doesn't like that person B likes what person A doesn't and vice versa. If I was ever that person, I apologize.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

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Because fandom and again people living in XIV. They can't bear to see their favorite characters die off for any reason even when their stories are completed. Also I've only played III, IV, V, VI, XV, and two Crystal Chronicles. I've touched VII, XII, and XIV is ongoing. I don't know who these antagonists are and not going to say which ones I think because spoilers for old games that were remastered recently.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

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Tropes themselves aren't inherently bad, it's how they're used. And they didn't use them well this expansion, I admit that. Also how were the elements being destroyed?

Unfortunately the majority disagrees. Some creators just won't allow their characters to die no matter how hard it ruins the story. While others do it because lol then build the story around or off of that. But the fakeouts absolutely have to stop, though I strongly doubt they will. I didn't mind the fluff, least of all that delicious looking burger. But I still wanted some bad to go with the good that actually lasted. They looked like they were having a last meal.

By the way when I say lives in XIV, I'm referring to the people who sent death threats to the devs. There's other aspects of it but that's the big one that removes all doubt.

G'raha Tia eating a hamburger in no way invoked the feel of a "last meal." Anyway, unless the Heavensward team finally finishes off FFXVI I suppose we can anticipate G'raha Tia becoming our Anduin and Y'shtola being the Sylvanas of FFXIV!

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

"It's okay to support Emet's ethnic cleansing because it's really Venat's fault!" -this thread.

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Thanks for proving you haven't actually been reading most of this thread (And evidently other people as well) because that's the opinion of...basically nobody here.

Two wrongs don't make a right, rather one wrong led to another. I don't think anything soured my opinion of Venat more then them confirming she willfully let Emet-Selch and the others escape despite knowing full well the things they'd do and never actually stating that she was trying to preserve the original timeline, either.

It's funny because they could've opted to absolve her of that by just stating that the unsundered did genuinely manage to escape through their own means but they didn't for...some reason. It makes me even more confused about what they were trying to accomplish because they clearly want us to think Venat is good, but actively wrote things in a way that makes it easy to think otherwise.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

G'raha Tia eating a hamburger in no way invoked the feel of a "last meal." Anyway, unless the Heavensward team finally finishes off FFXVI I suppose we can anticipate G'raha Tia becoming our Anduin and Y'shtola being the Sylvanas of FFXIV!

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There were other people there. And I've played enough games and watched enough shows to know that the happy was going to be paired with the eventual sad, fake or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I don't think anything soured my opinion of Venat more then them confirming she willfully let Emet-Selch and others escape despite knowing full well the things they'd do..

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Not to mention creating those seven reflections knowing specifically that they would be destroyed by the people she let free. We've established now that people who are 8-9/14ths are more than able to tackle that pesky Dynamis monster just fine, so being 14 times sundered wasn't even necessary. She created those shards purely because she knew they had to die for us to exist in the form she knows us in.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Thanks for proving you haven't actually been reading most of this thread (And evidently other people as well) because that's the opinion of...basically nobody here.

Two wrongs don't make a right; it's more that one wrong led to another. I don't think anything soured my opinion of Venat more then them confirming she willfully let Emet-Selch and others escape despite knowing full well the things they'd do.

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That poster's sole aim is to get a rise out of people here. There is no intention to discuss anything earnestly. They are best dismissed as a troll, as past experience dealing with them has proven.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

There were other people there. And I've played enough games and watched enough shows to know that the happy was going to be paired with the eventual sad, fake or otherwise.

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Yes Alisae taking her pickles out of her hamburger also contributed significantly to making the scene a twitter meme. Whatever costly budget was allocated to it should have gone to any number of scenes such as the duel between Hydaelyn and Zodiark that were, for some reason, missing in the expansion where those 2 should have been the main focus.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Yes Alisae taking her pickles out of her hamburger also contributed significantly to making the scene a twitter meme. Whatever costly budget was allocated to it should have gone to any number of scenes such as the duel between Hydaelyn and Zodiark that were, for some reason, missing in the expansion where those 2 should have been the main focus.

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Another reason to loathe her, I suppose. Pickles are tasty. :cool:

On a more serious note, it's all just so far removed from ARR, HW and ShB. I stopped playing Persona 5 part way through because a bunch of bratty teenagers lecturing everyone on complicated moral issues grew tiresome so it's a shame to see FFXIV going down a similar path.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

By the way when I say lives in XIV, I'm referring to the people who sent death threats to the devs. There's other aspects of it but that's the big one that removes all doubt.

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Yes, unfortunately there are elements of this community which do such things. On that note though, I've observed that Yoshi will sometimes address an incident, asking people to be a little more respectful to their devs, and immediately you'll find members of the English speaking community take it as free rein to shut down any criticism, not realising he is usually addressing rather more serious, specific incidents within the JP community. However, these situations also occurred in scenarios where for example contingents of the community took it upon themselves to address death threats at streamers (e.g. Scottzone) who were critical of aspects of the game. This game has got problems with players who become too fanatical towards it.

I think it should be obvious though that most of us here are just venting and discussing what we disliked about the story. I have other complaints with the game, so my current position is very borderline as to whether I stick with it. If I continue to dislike what I see, there's other games to play. I alongside others offer my feedback on the forum - if there is no marked improvement, or at least I find it deviates too much from what I enjoy, it's a shame, but at least it brings some closure. Sending death threats is puerile and serves no one well.

In your case I'd just say that if you want to have a discussion, people would appreciate it a lot more if you engaged the way you do with Theodric now, rather than fly by comments like the ancients are dead, get over it. We know that. They're fictional characters at the end of the day - it's more the comparative treatment of them in the story. Stories have to include some characters you enjoy at the end of the day, and while I don't speak for everyone here, I prefer the ancients to the main cast.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

That poster's sole aim is to get a rise out of people here. There is no intention to discuss anything earnestly. They are best dismissed as a troll, as past experience dealing with them has proven.

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Neither party had anything to discuss in "earnest". This thread devolved into Venat hate by posters that have always had a chip on their shoulder about the character. I am just a neutral party pointing that out, but sure I am just a troll. You do you buddy.

It's always a good time seeing the switch between "see, the Ancients WEREN'T perfect, so it's not a big deal that they died" and "see, the Ancients were TOO perfect, so they would have died anyway" as necessary from moment to moment.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

It's always a good time seeing the switch between "see, the Ancients WEREN'T perfect, so it's not a big deal that they died" and "see, the Ancients were TOO perfect, so they would have died anyway" as necessary from moment to moment.

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Friend, no matter the reasoning the Ancients were a dumb introduction to the plot and the story as a whole. For all the praise heaped upon ShB, all the problems bemoaned in EW also began there. Deviation from plot setup over past expansions, time travel dreck, alternate timelines, overabundance of fanservice over storytelling,etc... The Ancients visually are boring, culturally boring, philosophically boring. But SE had to bring them as the focal point of the story for fanservice because of the Emet simping the broader community did in ShB. Sorry I spread my hatred of plot elements around instead of harping on one character like a dead horse.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Neither party had anything to discuss in "earnest". This thread devolved into Venat hate by posters that have always had a chip on their shoulder about the character. I am just a neutral party pointing that out, but sure I am just a troll. You do you buddy.

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I'm in the camp that wanted to like her, but they opted to write her in a manner that makes it really difficult to do so with a broader perspective on her actions then "It's a causal loop so it had to happen".

A simple change like making her also lose her memories of our encounter would've been sufficient to avoid that with only minimal rewrites being needed to account for such. I rather dislike the notion that we had a role in swaying her into thinking her people were "flawed" and had to go.

I've read a post about how good this game would be if it was a single player, and I agree, that final mcguffin to keep the avatars alive was pure garbage, but it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

You know final fantasies tend to be very deep at times so it makes sense endwalker was too deep for a lot of people.

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My brother in Christ the story was too deep for the writers, not us.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Neither party had anything to discuss in "earnest". This thread devolved into Venat hate by posters that have always had a chip on their shoulder about the character. I am just a neutral party pointing that out, but sure I am just a troll. You do you buddy.

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I'm in the camp that still likes her, even if I find her logic and the story's attempts to paint it as "correct" really stupid.

If I turn my brain off and enjoy the story for what it is, I like Venadelyn. But, I shouldn't have to.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Neither party had anything to discuss in "earnest". This thread devolved into Venat hate by posters that have always had a chip on their shoulder about the character. I am just a neutral party pointing that out, but sure I am just a troll. You do you buddy.

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I went in suspicious of Hydaelyn but liked Venat in Elpis right up to the point she kicks us out having already made her choice.

I don't like having writers try to gaslight us into believing her choice was moral or heroic (a Herois minion?) nor did I enjoy having my WoL implicated in it (potentially twice depending how the player views their Azem) and shown as unthinkingly agreeing with that choice when there were other options. That took all player agency over the WoL away when they could have just as easily given players the choice how to respond as they do in other situations.

Having the scions immediately drop any questions and appear tempered to Hydaelyn when before some were written to question things more, it felt very forced and broke any emotional bonds I had towards those characters.

I doubt that is what the writers wanted to portray, but that's how some of us felt. I wish I could have enjoyed Endwalker, and there were parts I did but being told that a genocidal serial liar is heroic is way to far from my comfort zone and honestly disappointing in a game that had previously dealt with grey morality very well (imo).

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Originally Posted by Lauront

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I...have had little interest in logging in. As far as I'm concerned, the story ends with 6.0. Unless the next villain is basically Lord Arktivus Brevon from Freedom Planet, I doubt I'll be sticking around beyond helping my FC clear Extremes.

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Originally Posted by Ritsuka-55

I've read a post about how good this game would be if it was a single player, and I agree, that final mcguffin to keep the avatars alive was pure garbage, but it is what it is.

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Could have made the spell temporary and they'd disappear after defeating Endsinger, WoL included as to pave the way for a new adventurer. Maybe FFXIV-II of some kind but written by the HW team entirely and with top players of each role as job designers.

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Originally Posted by Fiel_Tana

I went in suspicious of Hydaelyn but liked Venat in Elpis right up to the point she kicks us out having already made her choice.

I don't like having writers try to gaslight us into believing her choice was moral or heroic (a Herois minion?) nor did I enjoy having my WoL implicated in it (potentially twice depending how the player views their Azem) and shown as unthinkingly agreeing with that choice when there were other options. That took all player agency over the WoL away when they could have just as easily given players the choice how to respond as they do in other situations.

Having the scions immediately drop any questions and appear tempered to Hydaelyn when before some were written to question things more, it felt very forced and broke any emotional bonds I had towards those characters.

I doubt that is what the writers wanted to portray, but that's how some of us felt. I wish I could have enjoyed Endwalker, and there were parts I did but being told that a genocidal serial liar is heroic is way to far from my comfort zone and honestly disappointing in a game that had previously dealt with grey morality very well (imo).

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I can't say I'd ever spent more than 30 seconds thinking about Hydaelyn at any point prior to EW, she was just that boring to me. I didn't particularly like or dislike her though I did find some of the shenanigans she pulled such as everything to do with Minfillia and being evasive about the nature of both herself and the Ascians/Zodiark to be highly questionable.

I didn't go into EW expecting to find that she was a villain but by god did they manage to make her one, in my eyes at least. The constant gaslighting made me dislike her even more because I very much abhorred being told that she was very right and everyone else was very wrong and that was that. Now here, adventurer, take your Herois minion, she died for you, don't you love her?

That Herois minion was my final breaking point after all that gaslighting. I regret mindlessly cleaning my inventory and clicking it.

I've head-cannoned that my WoL sees Hydalen as a villain and realises that minion is too dangerous to allow others near but could be potentially useful at some point, so she keeps it safely out of sight. At least until it begins wandering the personal island I guess. :/ I've also tried head-cannoning that the scions are indeed tempered and my WoL could potentially untemper them with the porxie mount, but has chosen to leave them as is for now so they don't also suffer disillusionment.

Messily head-cannoning all this to try to justify why my WoL just nods, seems to adore Hydaelyn and carries her minion is ridiculous, but that's where I'm at with this story now.

What I'd give to be able to delete that minion!

Lurkers shouldn't feel anxious, we love new people joining in the conversation!

As for Hydaelyn, I never liked her starting from the intro cutscene in ARR. I'm just not into the creepy 'mother' goddess thing, especially as it usually doesn't turn out well. I was thrilled to find out the Echo had nothing to do with her and was something innate to the WoL (as well as losing the BoL in HW not having a noticeable effect) because I felt like her involvement detracted from our accomplishments. Only for them to retcon the benefits of the Echo onto the Blessing of Light in EW. -_-

I thought Hydaelyn telling Minfilia to kill herself (and her agreeing!) was messed up, worse when she showed up later as a puppet. Everyone being bizarrely cool with all of that has always been unsettling. Thancred especially turns stupid whenever Minfilia is involved. "Hydaelyn's a primal who's responsible for Minfilia's death? Well, if Minfilia trusted her then so do I!" /slap :P

I doubt I'll ever come to terms with her being worse than I could've possibly imagined while simultaneously being depicted as the Best Person Ever.

I have such mixed feelings about how a lot of people seem to assume this thread consists of naught but baseless Venat/Hydaelyn hatred judging from the silly tags they continue slapping on it whilst refusing to actually involve themselves in discussion.

It's like they think that disliking the character means you automatically approve of the Ascians' actions which is such a hilariously bad take that it almost sounds like trolling, but I've seen enough weird opinions from people in the community to think it's probably genuine.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I have such mixed feelings about how a lot of people seem to assume this thread consists of naught but baseless Venat/Hydaelyn hatred judging from the silly tags they continue slapping on it whilst refusing to actually involve themselves in discussion.

It's like they think that disliking the character means you automatically approve of the Ascians' actions which is such a hilariously bad take that it almost sounds like trolling, but I've seen enough weird opinions from people in the community to think it's probably genuine.

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Eh, its more being critical of micro-portion of a larger troubled whole gets tiresome. On a macro level I agree with sentiment that EW was not well conceived or executed, but I like seeing critique of the whole rather than one character alot of posters in this thread fixate on. Also, I take issue with the heaps of praise ShB gets in this thread when it is what caused EW to take the direction it did.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I have such mixed feelings about how a lot of people seem to assume this thread consists of naught but baseless Venat/Hydaelyn hatred judging from the silly tags they continue slapping on it whilst refusing to actually involve themselves in discussion.

It's like they think that disliking the character means you automatically approve of the Ascians' actions which is such a hilariously bad take that it almost sounds like trolling, but I've seen enough weird opinions from people in the community to think it's probably genuine.

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I wouldn't let something like those tags bother you, it's just extreme immaturity at work.

Would it not be a good idea to come up with some of our own tags that actually reflect the discussion rather than just endure the labels people who disagree with us (or haven't even bothered to read) slap on the thread?

Venat is the key component that makes much of Endwalker make very little sense from a consistent narrative perspective. The inclusion of time travel, power of friendship and other controversial tropes were not introduced due to the Ancients as a whole but specifically in an attempt to try and excuse Venat of any and all blame for what she is ultimately responsible for.

Furthermore - and as has been pointed out many times throughout this very thread - anyone who dared to speak up in favour of the game's antagonists within this community have long been told they're bad people or even sent death threats for 'supporting genocide' due to the Ascians.

Incidentally by some of the very same posters who rush to champion Hydaelyn and insist, unironically, that 'mommy' did nothing wrong.

I'm primarily a Garlean fan myself, though since we lost out on a proper Garlean expansion its the Ancients who interest me the most right now. I'd note that there's a stark difference. Nobody is saying that anyone has to like the Ancients or Emet and yet there's this utterly bizarre double standard where gaslighting comes into play if someone dares to dislike or criticise Venat.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

I wouldn't let something like those tags bother you, it's just extreme immaturity at work.

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Agreed. You can also see who added which tag by hovering over each tag in question.

Even Emet and Elisibus got used the same way the Scions did. Constantly brought back from the dead to make plot happen, yet no one critiques those instances. I agree that dead characters need to stay dead to have weight to their deaths, but that stance needs to be applied across the board. Also ShB, by introducing the Ancient and the concept of the current being only 12,000 years removed from the current makes the current races evolution make little sense. It also unveiled too much and over explained what should have been left ambiguous.

There's been plenty of criticism as to how Emet and Elidibus were handled at times, though. It's also a fantasy game at the end of the day, so the inclusion of fantastical elements and races doesn't bother me or many others. It's more so a matter of what is done with them.

To say nothing of the fact that many of us posting here are European or at least fond of European fantasy...so, yeah, having Greek fantasy elements in play is appreciated even if some do not enjoy them by their own admission.

The reason Shadowbringers is highly praised by many here is because Emet's motivations made sense. He simply sought to undo a tragedy inflicted upon his people and his conflict was pushed as a battle of like wills. Nobody was forced to approve of his actions or even like him, though most people could at least see where he was coming from even if they felt the cost for reversing the tragedy was too high.

Endwalker, however, simply rid the story of much of its grit in favour of bending over backwards to try and present her as having no other choice when it's clearly outlined that she didn't explore every possible option available to her.

Though at this point I'm just pointing out stuff that can easily be seen by browsing the thread itself and reading the feedback being given out.

Emet worked for ShB, but he shouldn't have reappeared as a plot driving character past 5.0. It flanderized the character for fan service and pushed the plot into the direction that EW took. I enjoyed the world building and cultures of the First, and that was ShB's strongest aspect. Where as the Ancients reveal pushed them into a corner writing wise. Furthermore, the culture and visual flair of the Ancients is bland when put up against other cultures SE created within the world such as the Xaela, Garleans, Bojzans, Ala Mhigans, etc...

Which is ultimately just your opinion at the end of the day. You may not like the Ancients and you may very well find them to be bland but others do not and like the aesthetics that they're associated with.

It's just personal tastes in play at the end of the day. I also really like the aesthetics and culture of Garlemald, Limsa Lominsa, Gridania, Doma, Hingashi and the Azim Steppe.

Ala Mhigo didn't do anything for me and I found it boring though I wouldn't go out of my way to say that those who enjoyed it should never be thrown a bone or bit of fanservice ever again.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Emet worked for ShB, but he shouldn't have reappeared as a plot driving character past 5.0. It flanderized the character for fan service and pushed the plot into the direction that EW took.

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Hard disagree. Emet was pretty much the high point of the expansion... again. He hard carried Elpis and Ultima Thule (alongside Hythlodaeus) and I sincerely think that his characterization in EW was even better than in ShB. And I don't even get how anyone can think otherwise unless they're principally opposed to the fact that he appeared again.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

Hard disagree. Emet was pretty much the high point of the expansion... again. He hard carried Elpis and Ultima Thule (alongside Hythlodaeus) and I sincerely think that his characterization in EW was even better than in ShB. And I don't even get how anyone can think otherwise unless they're principally opposed to the fact that he appeared again.

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Honestly, it was Hythlodaeus who carried Emet, and therefore most of Elpis. Emet in Elpis only really works because Hythlodaeus is there to make him feel more '' human '' and approachable, whether it's by him jovially getting on Emet's nerves or telling us what kind of man he truly is.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

Hard disagree. Emet was pretty much the high point of the expansion... again. He hard carried Elpis and Ultima Thule (alongside Hythlodaeus) and I sincerely think that his characterization in EW was even better than in ShB. And I don't even get how anyone can think otherwise unless they're principally opposed to the fact that he appeared again.

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Emet's individual characterization was basically perfect (asides from him jumping on board the Venat apologism train in his last scene, unfortunately), and perfectly consistent with what we got in Shadowbringers - especially with the Lodestone stories in consideration, just with some of his traits, that were always there, being emphasized somewhat more or somewhat less. I actually thought EW was really nice in very strongly clarifying the true nature of his character and personality where I thought a lot of players tended to misunderstand it, including both Emet fans and Emet dislikers.

In general, I've always had mixed feelings at the premise of the Ancients' world being fully realized as part of the game - to me, their presentation in Shadowbringers was so haunting and powerful because they in part felt 'out of reach' and things like the design in Amaurot encouraged us to associate them with "the real world" rather than "the fantasy world of the game," which informed how I read Emet's claims of us not really being people. But I said basically immediately while playing through that if it did have to be incorporated as a part of the fantasy world - and I understood that was basically inevitable - Elpis was more or less ideal in very clearly showing them as, overall, incredibly sweet, good people who nonetheless had room to express a variety of individual personalities and idiosyncrasies.

In a way, this caused the impression I got to be the opposite of what the devs intended - both Amaurot and Elpis, compared to Eorzea and in many ways the real world, actually made me feel uniquely comfortable and "safe." The Ancients' world was a peaceful, benevolent place, but it still had people who got annoyed, people who were annoying, people who disagreed with one another, people who expressed themselves poorly and stepped on one anothers' toes - which made it feel as "ah, there WOULD be room for someone like me in a place like this!" except without the danger of being meaningfully harmed by someone else, or secure in the knowledge that there wasn't genuinely malicious intent. Oh no, Ancient Bob thinks my ideas are stupid and dumb! What's he gonna do, challenge me in a week to the debate hall where at the end we'll thank each other and shake hands for the rigorous discussion and exchange of thoughts?

So, just like Venat, in a way, but opposite, soaking in that feeling so strongly, and being so happy with it, and then learning the intent in fact was for that environment and those lovely people to be "scary" enough that I was expected to be on board with Venat's very sad (for her) decision to wipe them all out was, uh, an absolute trip. Would be one way to put it.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Neither party had anything to discuss in "earnest". This thread devolved into Venat hate by posters that have always had a chip on their shoulder about the character. I am just a neutral party pointing that out, but sure I am just a troll. You do you buddy.

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If you engage in snarky fly by sniping whilst others are discussing the topic - hardly the first time you do this, either - then don't be surprised if some of us see you as little more than a troll. You seem to be deranged by the fact that some people like the ancients and dislike Venat, and come up with all sorts of snark about it. There's been plenty of discussions here that have been interesting, all based on the lore the game set out, as well as some interesting insights people have brought up, so no, I can't really agree that neither party has had anything to discuss in earnest. A lot of the criticism has come from people who were inclined to like her. If you simply intend to snipe at people here with attempts at bait, don't be surprised if you just end up being taken as a troll, because really there's not much functional difference. Certainly no different to the usual passive aggressive snark you get in this community for voicing criticism of the game, I guess. There's plenty of other discussion threads/sites gushing in effusive praise for the story and Venat...

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Emet's individual characterization was basically perfect (asides from him jumping on board the Venat apologism train in his last scene, unfortunately), and perfectly consistent with what we got in Shadowbringers - especially with the Lodestone stories in consideration, just with some of his traits, that were always there, being emphasized somewhat more or somewhat less. I actually thought EW was really nice in very strongly clarifying the true nature of his character and personality where I thought a lot of players tended to misunderstand it, including both Emet fans and Emet dislikers.

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He's a fairly complex character, though when you take it all together - particularly the characterisation Yoshi gave of him during the interview Rulakir mentioned, it all fits nicely together, and you can see how the Ascians' toil changed him over time, but left some core aspects of his personality untouched, like his devotion to his people and the star, and seldom showing his true feelings. Elidibus got a fairly complete characterisation in 5.3 (regardless of whether one likes it or not; I had my issues with it at the time), and the Themis stuff is filling in gaps, but with Emet we didn't get as much insight into his ancient self besides hints here and there, as he was mostly narrating in the short stories, so the Elpis stuff felt like it was completing that, and expanding on his dynamic with Hyth.

Regarding the ancients more generally, if they were to feature centrally in the (or a) game, rather than as part of the story/world to visit, I could sort of see them being the starting point of some kind of space opera, where they begin spacefaring to discover new challenges. Alas, EW wasn't too kind to all those alien civilisations... though who knows, perhaps there's others out there. :p

Overall, I think the Endwalker plot issues can be summarized as three root causes: 1) Emet-Selch's breakout status, 2) the desire to "subvert expectations" and 3) pandering to the players' sense of Power Fantasy:

Point 1: The entire Elpis storyline felt sloppy, IMO, because the writers wanted to milk Emet for fanservice. They know that he was the most popular thing about ShB, and fans reacted positively to Emet showing up to save you from Elidibus. So, more Emet is no-brainer, right? Thus, an entire story thread where you get to interact with the real Emet-Selch, and constantly get pounded what a tragedy it is for such a good man to turn into a villain.

Point 2: The story could have made either Zodiark, Hydaelyn or both the villains. They've been hinting since ShB that there was no real "good" or "evil" between the two, so they really could have gone anywhere. But, they added a third element in ShB (a mysterious sound that caused the Final Days) and decided to make that the main villain. So we wind up with Zodiark, the big villain they've been hyping since ARR, dying first. Then Hydaelyn, the other side of the conflict, dying second. That means we now have to focus on the final "true" villain that only gets introduced in this expansion. This once again puts a lot of heavy lifting on Elpis.

Point 3: The main theme of EW is overcoming despair and always moving ahead to a brighter tomorrow. For this story to work, we must accept that the WOL (our character) is somehow doing things in the morally "correct" way. Otherwise, nothing in the story would make sense (the WOL never even hints that they might turn into a blasphemy, and they HAVE to be the last person standing when we get to Meteion). Further, this position also makes it necessary to paint the Ancients as "wrong" somehow. In order to prove that the new races (and, especially, our WOL) have somehow "overcome" the problem that killed the Ancients and that they have the power to create brighter tomorrow, we have to portray the Ancients as bad.

BUT, due to Point 1, we also don't want to tarnish our beloved cash cow Emet too badly, so we have to make the Ancients "bad, but not TOO bad". This creates silly scenes like being told our WOL is unhappy when Hyth creates butterflies out of robes and being offended when other Ancients kill a monster that can't fly, while I'm walking around in clothes I crafted from the skins of 100 jabberwocks, using a Relic Weapon I got from slaughtering everything on several maps. Combined with Point 2, this also means that Venat (aka Hydaelyn) has to be portrayed as correct, which is why we get that nonsensical post-Elpis scene where she argues with a bunch of cartoonishly strawmen Ancients, and when we then combine Point 3, we get some 10th-grade edgelord moral about suffering being good because it makes you strong.

You know what really carried the story atleast for me,

First seeing daddy Emet-selch period no lines are anything that was it just seeing him..

and two: the final fight with zenos that was more fun than every bit of content in endwalker more fun than the trails or the dungeons.. just the two of you in the middle of no where beating the shit out of one another for no other reason than to beat the shit out of one another period. Many people give him shit but he is the most chilled character in the entire game he doesnt give a shit about conquest or bringing the end he just goes along with the ride to play with his playmate and that y i respect the guy more so than the trash fire that is vanat.. nothing about her is good other than she is a light holy entity but wait doesnt the snakes also have a "holy godddess"


plus why didnt the anicents just create another creation to go kill meta that also used the energy, they had no need to sunder the world to destory her with their creation magic ... it was just... ~_~

Well, this was a surprise. Quite a long comment thread on Reddit criticizing EW with awards and upvotes!

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...mment/i3gbmig/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nekokaori

plus why didnt the anicents just create another creation to go kill meta that also used the energy, they had no need to sunder the world to destory her with their creation magic ... it was just... ~_~

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They didn't sunder the world, that was all Venat. And they didn't, or rather couldn't come up with a counter to Meteion because they had absolutely no idea that Meteion existed or what was causing the Final Days. Only Venat knew that and she wasn't sharing.