Dear Healers who don't DPS

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Originally Posted by era1Ne

Lets say you meet 3 of the best players in the game and they kick you, because you make on mistake.

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The best players wouldn't do that. They would, however, advice you to DPS because there isn't a reason not to. If the response from said player was "I'm a healer. I shouldn't have to DPS," then you cross into kick territory. Of course, this isn't universal. Many will grudgingly carry such a player through content, others won't. That has no bearing on a thread discussing how healers should play in FFXIV. We're speaking objectively. I am not going to sugarcoat that fact any more than I would tanks not rotating their CDs properly or DPS refusing to AoE . Speaking of the latter. A RDM posted a thread not to long ago complaining she shouldn't have to aoe because she "found it boring." No one defended her stance. Her "feelings" weren't considered at all. Every single post essentially said, "No. You aoe on mass pulls." Why do healers get this built in excuse when other roles don't? I will, again, reiterate, we aren't talking about new healers but people who won't even try or outright refuse.

Hyomin nor anyone else has advocated kicking over a single mistake. That's just yet another strawman. Likewise, the PF argument is self-defeating as it goes both ways. If you want a chill group that does smaller pulls or won't insist on healer DPS. Make a PF.

To answer your hypothesis. A friend dragged me into a Sephirot EX farm a few months before Stormblood launched. I hadn't done the fight in ages and messed up on where the stack mechanic for healers is supposed to go. She kept saying "Right" but at 4am, it just wasn't clicking "right of where the boss is." Someone in the group made snarky comments about it, and they were 99% on multiple jobs-- i.e., a very good player. So how did I handle it after they bailed? I dusted myself off and got over it. In the event you were constantly kicked or have people telling you to do something different. Maybe instead of feeling sorry for yourself, you reflect on why that keeps happening, or even ask. You'll be surprised just how accommodated veteran players are when you're upfront and willing to improve. I've known many hardcore raiders who will spend hours helping but won't give you the time of day if you aren't willing to put in effort. And that is what everyone in this thread has pushed for: effort.

I personally don't care for the change to healers in this game as of the 3.X series and into the 4.x series in regards to DPS. I didn't mind doing DPS in dungeons, but in raids, it was questionable. I was able to take the whole "Your a DPS that heals a little bit" until I got to O4S. There, I found that I have to do:

1) Keep DPS numbers above 1,800
2) Keep people alive who make stupid mistakes
3) Keep people alive during normal unavoidable damage (huge healing check)
4) Do all of the mechanics with perfect timing (make any mistake and your dead or nearly dead)

I have found that if I dropped DPS, I could do all of the mechanics, but then the group never got past Exadeath. With this, I have come to the conclusion that as an old school healer of 16 years, its time for me to retire from healing. I'm going to miss healing but your really not healers anymore, things have changed too much to call yourselves that, your DPS now. I know many of you have been able to adapt and have even thrived due to the changes they have made so I do not begrudge the devs for the changes. This is why its time for me to bow out and let the next generation take over.

I wish all of you luck as the new generation of DPS who have a healing utility the best and please take care! ^_^

P.S.
Please don't attack me for my opinion, I am merely stating that I don't care for the changes but accept that they have happened and are wishing all of you the best of luck, no hate, only love! :)
Former WHM from 2014 - 2017

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Originally Posted by era1Ne

Here we go again :D
Wow. Do you also kick tanks or dd all the time? I agree that healer should dps, but if you go into a random group, then you will meet random people aka people with a different skill level and we should accept that. How would you feel when you get kicked all the time, because you are not living up to the standards the other demand. Lets say you meet 3 of the best players in the game and they kick you, because you make on mistake. Would you like that? If you want to fight with people on your or above your level, then make an pf and search for them. Again, i am not saying healer should not dps, but if an healer does dps and makes an mistake(s), then you should deal with it and not be as toxic as this person suggest. If everyone would do it, then you would have even less healers trying to do dmg.

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I don't understand the mentality surrounding kicks, as if by entering a party through DF you are entitled to not be kicked.

This is not a thing. Anyone can be kicked for playstyle differences from any content. Is this likely a problem that zero DPS healers face more than other players? For sure! But then zero DPS healers are also very visibly performing suboptimally.

At the end of the day if I queued for a roulette and got in and was then kicked from that roulette because I was DPSing I would be annoyed I would likely make a forum post about how that was a stupid thing to do. I would also defend those players right to kick me though, SE has made it very clear that playstyle difference kicks are valid and healer DPS is cleaely one of the most polarizing "playstyle differences" out there.

This idea that you are just stuck with whoever you get in random queues needs to die. You aren't. If they're bad and you don't deem them worth carrying through the dungeon (to me this mostly means I offered advice and it was met with snark or silence/no change) then by all means initiate a vote kick. They can queue again. At least on Aether datacenter I can say healers do not have a hard time with queues, they'll get into something else almost instantly and hopefully with players who better match their playstyle.

Crazy how that works, almost like the system was designed to be used.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I personally don't care for the change to healers in this game as of the 3.X series and into the 4.x series in regards to DPS. I didn't mind doing DPS in dungeons, but in raids, it was questionable. I was able to take the whole "Your a DPS that heals a little bit" until I got to O4S. There, I found that I have to do:

1) Keep DPS numbers above 1,800
2) Keep people alive who make stupid mistakes
3) Keep people alive during normal unavoidable damage (huge healing check)
4) Do all of the mechanics with perfect timing (make any mistake and your dead or nearly dead)

I have found that if I dropped DPS, I could do all of the mechanics, but then the group never got past Exadeath. With this, I have come to the conclusion that as an old school healer of 16 years, its time for me to retire from healing. I'm going to miss healing but your really not healers anymore, things have changed too much to call yourselves that, your DPS now. I know many of you have been able to adapt and have even thrived due to the changes they have made so I do not begrudge the devs for the changes. This is why its time for me to bow out and let the next generation take over.

I wish all of you luck as the new generation of DPS who have a healing utility the best and please take care! ^_^


P.S.
Please don't attack me for my opinion, I am merely stating that I don't care for the changes but accept that they have happened and are wishing all of you the best of luck, no hate, only love! :)

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I hate to see anyone leave healing and I hope that you either reconsider or at least find some happiness in whatever you do next. I really can't see anyone attacking your opinion in this thread due in large part to the fact that you framed it as an opinion which relates to you specifically and aren't trying to alter the community.

Good luck! I hope you reconsider and maybe punch Ex-Death in the face a couple months down the line from now. :D

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Originally Posted by era1Ne

Sorry, if i jump to conclution here. I just don't like toxic people and thanks to the community you very rarerly encounter them in this game. Lets keep it that way :)

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You keep making the same mistake. Stop accusing people of doing things they never even said they do because that is toxic as well just so you know.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

stuff

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Hey I hear you but you're missing the point. Which is that this topic has been done and overdone a thousand times. Yeah it's optimized play to dps as a healer, but optimization isn't a justifiable requirement.
Tbh there are so many circumstances around it that it's a moot point to even bring up in the first place. Maybe your healer doesn't main heal and isn't comfortable, maybe they're scared, maybe they have something else irl taking their attention, or are on voice with fc mates, maybe they even have high latency or low fps etc... The same can be said of any other class. Whether it's a no cd tank, shitty aggro tank, low dps deeps or one that likes to stand in aoes.
It really doesn't matter. 4 man content is easy af and there are 3 other players that can adapt.
Your healer is idle 80% of the time? Drop tank stance and dps more, if you're a dps stand in aoes to get that extra gcd in etc.. Your tank sucks? just focus heal, use aggro reduction skills. Honestly, if the healer can't dps because the tank sucks or the tank can only pull a group at a time because the healer sucks, that's like 5mn off your dungeon. If you're wiping at all then the healer dps is the last of your concerns (often times this is because the healer is dpsing anyways).

Yeah the world would be great if everyone optimized their play but the only requirement is that you do the minimum required by your role. AKA: tanks keep aggro, healers keep people alive, dps mash buttons

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Yeah it's optimized play to dps as a healer, but optimization isn't a justifiable requirement.

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I just can't believe that the standard of expectations right now is literally at the level of "I don't know... just try to be as good as a healer bot with a bad AI". And for some, this is still considered as too high of a standard for those poor healer players. :D

Oh yeah and those poor squadron healer bots, forced to optimise their play for that level.... :D

I'm sorry, but if we could literally replace you with a squadron bot and that would be an improvement in healer performance, then there's an issue (in fact, now that I'm thinking about it, "doing better than a squadron bot" might be a good standard of expectations for all the jobs!).

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Yeah the world would be great if everyone optimized their play but the only requirement is that you do the minimum required by your role. AKA: tanks keep aggro, healers keep people alive, dps mash buttons

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No one is saying people have to 100% optimize. We are asking for a "middle ground".

Minimum for your role isn't "middle ground" it is extremely below average play. I don't think it is unfair to ask others to just play averagely well and/or ask them to -TRY-(KEYWORD) to play averagely well instead of outright refusing to try. The healers that are the problem we are discussing are the ones who just outright refuse to even try to contribute more to the group.

You have to understand that minimum for role is extremely below average play. A DPS just using one DPS attack and nothing else would be fulfilling minimum as they are still doing damage. If you are okay with that then I guess you are okay with that, but you cannot expect everyone else to be okay with a MNK spamming Dragon Kick and nothing else, a BLM using nothing but Blizzard, or a PLD using nothing but Flash.

There is a level of uncaring present in those situations at higher levels where some people will say "I've had enough and I won't try harder to clear this content for someone who obviously doesn't care to even put even an average amount of effort into learning what their role can contribute to help the group".

I mean why should I, or anyone else, care about someone who doesn't care about anyone else? I mean there is a line between below average play and just simply someone who doesn't care. The ones who don't care are the ones who verbally insult and harass me when I offer advice or try to help them and sorry but that is very frequent no matter how nice and friendly I talk. If people show they don't care about the rest of the people they ended up grouped with then don't expect the rest of the people to care about them either.

If a healer simply explains they are new and cannot offer DPS because they don't know the content? No problem.
Healer explains they hurt their hand the other day and cannot play super efficiently? No problem.
Healer explains they have a disability which makes it hard for them to play well? No problem.
Healer explains they haven't done much DPS usually, but they will try to help out? No problem.
Healer explains they don't often play healer and may be rusty, but they'll try to help out? No problem.

"I am a healer so I only have to heal"? No.
"It's my sub I play how I want"? No.
"insert verbal insults or harassment just because you asked them to contribute DPS"? No.

Taika : That's a bit of a straw man tbh.
Again, the difference in 4 man content between an optimized healer and a passable one isn't that big of a deal. And even moreso than that, what is this thread accomplishing? What have the hundreds of exact same ones prior to this one done?
The DPS healer role in ff14 is an undesired side effect to a bunch of other decisions SE made, whether they be questionable or warranted. It happened despite Yoshi-P clearly wanting healers in healer roles. If you absolutely want healers to optimize by dpsing, you can tackle some of those decisions to force healers into dpsing. Likewise if you think healers should only heal you can do the same.

So yeah, currently optimized healers are DPS that try to heal as little as possible and all ogcd. Does that matter in EX/Savage? Hell yeah. Does it matter in 4-man content? hardely. And the little extra comfort you get from it does not outway the comfort of the healer actually paying for his/her sub. There are plenty of healers that stay away from ex/savage content because they don't enjoy the DPS with heal utility role. Let them be.
And if you think the meta should be different and enforced. Then use the proper channels.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Hey I hear you but you're missing the point. Which is that this topic has been done and overdone a thousand times. Yeah it's optimized play to dps as a healer, but optimization isn't a justifiable requirement.
Tbh there are so many circumstances around it that it's a moot point to even bring up in the first place. Maybe your healer doesn't main heal and isn't comfortable, maybe they're scared, maybe they have something else irl taking their attention, or are on voice with fc mates, maybe they even have high latency or low fps etc... The same can be said of any other class. Whether it's a no cd tank, shitty aggro tank, low dps deeps or one that likes to stand in aoes.
It really doesn't matter. 4 man content is easy af and there are 3 other players that can adapt.
Your healer is idle 80% of the time? Drop tank stance and dps more, if you're a dps stand in aoes to get that extra gcd in etc.. Your tank sucks? just focus heal, use aggro reduction skills. Honestly, if the healer can't dps because the tank sucks or the tank can only pull a group at a time because the healer sucks, that's like 5mn off your dungeon. If you're wiping at all then the healer dps is the last of your concerns (often times this is because the healer is dpsing anyways).

Yeah the world would be great if everyone optimized their play but the only requirement is that you do the minimum required by your role. AKA: tanks keep aggro, healers keep people alive, dps mash buttons

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You haven't actually made a point yet so there isn't anything for me to miss.

You've stated your opinion that optimal play is unnecessary. That's fine, you are free to hold your groups accoubtable for that level of competence.

We are saying people should aspire to be better than the bare minimum requirements of their role for the sake of the group because it is not hard to try to improve a bit each day.

These two things are opinions not points, not to mention opinions that are mutually exclusive.

First off any playstyle difference is a justifiable requirement to be kicked according to SE. Kicking is clearly the extreme here and I would love for it to never come to that but yes, it's within the rules of this game to kick a healer for not DPSing. You literally can't argue this, this is a fact.

Your attempt at justification with "there are 3 other players that can adapt" is silly. We can adapt, sure, but we do not have to. You can not force me to play with a zero DPS healer just like you can't force me to play with a Thundermage or Flash PLD. If someone (like, say, you) wants to carry zero DPS healers through things all day long I say go for it. Set up a PF. Best of luck to you. You can do whatever you want to do in this game but so can everyone else.

I will continue to offer advice and support to healers that seem new or inexperienced because at one time or another I have mained each of those classes and feel justified in doing so. That being said if my advice is met with "you don't pay my sub" they just might find themselves votekicked.

You do not decide the standards to which other players hold their party members, every player gets to decide those standards for themselves. This thread is full of compelling reasons for healers to DPS from things as basic as party courtesy to as important as skipping mechanics. What has the opposition put forth?

They might be new/inexperienced. (Okay, help them learn good habits before bad ones get in the way)

They might be distracted/have tech issues. (That is their own fault, they chose to queue)

They have the right to play how they want. (So do we. That includes offering advice or kicking/leaving from a party that doesn't work for us)

Are there any of your "points" you feel are unaddressed still?

If everyone played at the level you suggest this game would be unplayable, but hey as long as everyone is nice all the time and lets everyone else suck it's cool right? I'm sorry, this will never fly with me. You can't sneak the idea that healer DPS is so hard to do past a bunch of current and former healer mains. We know the secret.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

That's a bit of a straw man tbh.

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Miste's post was literally the opposite of a straw man. She cretiqued your points and poked holes in what you actually said. That is like... yeah, not a straw man.

Taika's is also based in what was being discussed prior to your post here, sorry you didn't read what was being said but that's on you.

Guys it really seemed like this was done. We had argued the same points for 82 pages and I can't lie I was ready for it to be over ;-;

Miste:
Well a healer not dpsing is not comparable to a dps spamming one attack. More like a dps with a subpar rotation.
And just so we're clear. I understand a lot of what people are saying. I'm always DPSing as much as I can, and it's not uncommon for me to dps more than anyone else in my party. I enjoy it, I just don't expect others to feel the same way. If they don't want to dps in my 4man content it's not a big deal. They can have fun and I can spend an extra 5 minutes in a dungeon pulling bigger or dpsing more while eating mechanics etc.. Whatever floats my boat and keeps them on their toes.

And yeah some people are rude. Personally I have a beef with DPS pulling instead of the tanks (usually to speed things up). Especially after the tank is uncomfortable and asks the DPS to stop. Imo this is symptomatic of the greater issue brought up in this thread. Which is that people don't enjoy their dungeons much and just want them over with asap.