Healers need an overhaul

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

You're avoiding my question. So far, I'm not under the impression that any of the response so far was because "I disagree with this guy because he does not even have a healer leveled!". I think people are simply stating their own personal-standalone opinion on the matter, completely independent of whatever credential I have or may not have. I had not looked anyone credential here, so I had never used it to base off my talking point, and I doubt anyone else do either.

Like I said, if by providing credential meaning people suddenly agree with me, I'll do it. But I doubt that has ever matter. But now that you brought it up, I'm sure some will use it as convenience deflection point for disagreeing with me.

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and i'm saying it's a perfectly valid counterpoint. how can you know what healers are supposed to play/feel like when you yourself never even put in the time to hit 90 or even 50 which would've been the cap at your time, saying it's not a valid counterargument cause nobody brought it up is stupid. people are actually willing to give more leniency on you potentially having leveled a healer to 50/90 cause your main class on here is a DOH, which alot of people set their things as. plus just cause they didn't bother to look up your level doesn't mean it makes your points any less invalid. especially when talking to people who HAVE leveled to 90 on healers, or are willing to look up levels. cause you genuinely sound like you have no idea what healing is actually like with a semi decent group or healing in general, you just see a few bad examples and correlate that to everything

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

and i'm saying it's a perfectly valid counterpoint.

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No, you are deflecting my main question, again. So you claim the reason people not agreeing with me right now is due to my lack of credential, I'm asking if I provide it, what will change? Everyone had stated their opinion under no uncertain term, I seriously doubt even if I turn out to be a triple legend with 99% log, the people who are dismissing/making fun of/disagreeing with me will suddenly turn around and say "hum, that guy actually have point!".

For the record, I'm under no illusion that I will change anyone opinion here, I merely state my opinion on the matter just like how everyone state theirs. You're badly mistaken if you think I'm trying to do more than that. I don't care about having the last word here or to assert my stance.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

And when they say "you should have said something to each other and split the duties 50/50" neither of us would likely have anything to say about that.

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Oh, you think I haven't tried? Given my resentment of the matter, it'll be an easy guess for you how that often turn out. I still remember this answer a 99% stone mage gave me when I asked him/her to heal more: "why should my parse suffer for doing more than the minimum"? And that answer was the norm, not an exception.

That is why my dear, you will understand why I enjoy the current system far more than the era that some of you consider more "interesting". I'm not old enough to be called granpa, but I'm not young either. The current design is inch perfect for me, not just because the classes itself feel right for me, but mainly because it took out a lot of the shenanigan that I used to have to deal from others. It's bit cliche to say, but "I'm too old for that ****".

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Oh, you think I haven't tried?

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I think you tried, and I think you were met with a few instances and gave up, much like how I've tried the same approach, was met with "you don't pay my sub, I'll heal however I want" and have, since, decided that I'll allow people to simply play as they please.
On the other hand, I'm also not expecting perfection from PUGs, and my time spent with organized groups has proven coordination to be extremely simple and straight-forward.
Even to this day, despite rust and general disinterest in playing, I'll run things with friends and find myself co-healing with one in particular, and we just wing it and cover for each other as necessary, allowing for our quirks to compliment each other rather than work against each other.

So, basically, I have bad and good experiences under my belt, and I'm choosing to pull from all of them, and I believe you've had bad experiences and are just choosing from them as your basis while ignoring the rest.

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Originally Posted by Sunhwapark

At this point I'm convinced the developers are trying to fuse the ceiling & floor together.

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Tbh, I think a lot of people want that too.
Most people don't really want to be challenged too much and they want to see the big numbers without having to put too much effort into it.

Issue is that the content where the skill ceiling even matters at all is content these same people shouldn't and usually won't be engaging with to begin with.
But they want the skill ceiling to still be balanced around them because they don't like feeling bad about their numbers.

It's worth remembering that both WoW and FFXIV were successful because they were more casual friendly MMO's.
WoW in particular was designed intentionally to be casual and that's one of the major factors why it became such a huge success.
I'd actually say that a pretty big reason too why a lot of people don't like modern day WoW is because it has strayed away from being a more casual game throughout the years, and a lot of people feel like it's a second job and a very tiny fraction can even do the end raids at the highest difficulty.

So it's a bit of an issue with the players too.
Altho I'd personally really enjoy way more healing being necessary and also more engaging dps rotations for Healers.
I think in practice it's probably not what the average person wants.

I still think one or two more dps skills would be fine, but actually going full out and truly making it more engaging I dunno how that'd land really.
The average player just doesn't want too involved gameplay I think they want something simple.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

i haven't now nor have i ever advocated for overhealing at any point. but there are real situations that other party members ARE doing things very wrong (ignoring mechanics, dps taking aoes to the face because ???), while everyone overheals a bit sometimes, personally i'd rather lose a dps spell (when referring to non savage/ultimate content) and overheal rather than underheal, wipe, and have to go again. unpopular take i'll assume. however i can understand higher standards for savage/ultimate content (little to no overhealing whatsoever, everyone knowing their stuff)

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i would say that the unpopular not taking sometimes more of a conservative approach on any given decision on the spur of the moment especially in a DF with a complete stranger. It's more of apply that to every single person on every single run and given them no other other option. No matter how good they are, no matter how longer they have played, no matter which healer they pick, they stare at so many healing options that often aren't needed and keep hitting that 1 key.

And for that situation that you describe? Sometime it's fine to wipe. Really it is. This is the sometime the most wipe adverse MMO I've ever seen yet it can be the most forgiving game. I 've played games where once you enter a dungeon, once you wipe, the boss vanishes. POOF. Plus you lose a run from your weekly quote. What do we lose here? Usually a few minutes.

Ah yes the classic healers have bigger consequences party wide for their failures so they should never be given the chance to fail or take responsibility for said failures.

Almost like people think every healer in the game was held at gun point to play the role... Maybe true at this point...

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

i would say that the unpopular not taking sometimes more of a conservative approach on any given decision on the spur of the moment especially in a DF with a complete stranger. It's more of apply that to every single person on every single run and given them no other other option. No matter how good they are, no matter how longer they have played, no matter which healer they pick, they stare at so many healing options that often aren't needed and keep hitting that 1 key.

And for that situation that you describe? Sometime it's fine to wipe. Really it is. This is the sometime the most wipe adverse MMO I've ever seen yet it can be the most forgiving game. I 've played games where once you enter a dungeon, once you wipe, the boss vanishes. POOF. Plus you lose a run from your weekly quote. What do we lose here? Usually a few minutes.

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that's fair, I don't try to wipe avoid because I'm personally against wiping (the phrase "don't fear the release...") lots are, and will be very, very vocal about it. so I figured I'll do what I can to help prevent that guy from breaking his self administered oath of silence to bless the party with exact specifics as to why each and everyone except for themselves is at fault. on the flip side, what do we lose from a slight bit of overhealing? less than a few minutes. needless to say however, a lot of the times everyones a good sport about wiping, in my experience that occasional angry dude is just that, and occasion. but usually I feel like I'm in a position where I can lose some optimization for a bit of extra heals. as much as that will grind the gears of any player who's life goal is to be the most optimal perfectionist on this game.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

yeah, in a perfect world a healer being healed through any unavoidable damage, staying alive, optimally, almost... perfectly... playing their class shouldn't get out-dpsed by a healer. shouldn't. yet more often than not that can be the reality? it's not that rare or that unfound? as for change, all change isn't exactly good change. having healers focus on dps before healing just to be "contributing" isn't exactly positive change.

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I believe you mean "DPS" being out-DPSed by a healer, and aside from low-level levelling trash runs, where not all jobs have their skills- if you take 2 equally competent players and stack a BLM , a RPR or a SAM next to a SGE, or an AST for example are you seriously saying that the AST (for example ) is going to out-DPS those DPS?? Do you honestly think that it takes a "perfect" BLM to out DPS an AST because typically will fail to get healed now?

I do understand that change can be unsettling when it affects things that we like. However, it looks like you are concerned that people who play heals are incapable of making decisions, but can you explain that? I don't see why healers can't decide when to heal and when to DPS, they already make these decisions. They're already expected to contribute, just like any other job, if not they can be replaced - however that can't be harassed for that under the TOS.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

So, basically, I have bad and good experiences under my belt, and I'm choosing to pull from all of them, and I believe you've had bad experiences and are just choosing from them as your basis while ignoring the rest.

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Not at all. If I have such negative prognosis as you claim, I doubt I would play as much as I do. Like I said, I play on 4 toons, clearing savage on all of them every week, I already BiS out more jobs than I care to play, even dublicate BiS on the same job on different toon. Yet I still run them? Why? Because I actually enjoy PF very much these days. Correct me if I wrong, but I feel like currently I'm both enjoying both my jobs and my parties far more than the people who are arguing with me right now. In short, I think I had played, and playing way too much for you to dismiss it as "selective from a few bad memory". So from my POV, claiming you're more positive than me is a really hard sale.

Of course I have good memories as well. My previous statiic co-healer was a very conservative one, the kind that give you the license to DPS as much as you want and she cover the heal. My current one is even more amazing. "You will always get the heal you need" is what she told me during the interview. And by that, she didn't mean the bare minimum required by the fight either. She cover people mistake, recover run at amazing efficiency ... yet she still push into the top tier DPS almost effortlessly. So I'm fully aware those kind of healers exist, both in term of skill and mentality. But rest assure, I play more than enough to distinguish between what is the norm and what is the exception.

If even only half of the PF can provide similar co-healers to me even only half of the time, then sure go nut. Give healer 10 more DPS buttons, I'll even be supporting that idea. But ... get real.


My argument simply base on my observation, and It may be a bit presumptuous of me, but I think I work with a much larger sample size than the average player. And even more presumptuous is I would like to think Yoshi-P and his team had the same observation as I did years ago. After all, the way they have been "fixing" that issue over the last 2 expansion fit me to a T.

So feel free to dismiss and make fun of my opinion, it's no big deal. I have no need for agreement on the forum, in game is where it counts. And unless you're not being honest to yourself, you would know the current reality match whose opinion. :)

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Ah yes the classic healers have bigger consequences party wide for their failures so they should never be given the chance to fail or take responsibility for said failures.

Almost like people think every healer in the game was held at gun point to play the role... Maybe true at this point...

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In my observation, about 90% of the posters on this forum is being forced to play the game at gun point. :D