Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

And again, people learn differently.

I do not learn how to play my class outside of content. I only learn while actually in the content.

I can practice a rotation until the cows come home on a dummy and it will barely affect how it plays in the content. Because the boss does things the dummy does not. Such as move, place AoE's etc. Because there are 3+ people that are at various skill levels that may affect my ability to DPS.

For me, the real learning begins when I start doing the actual content.

Please stop telling me that how I learn, when you are not me. I have spent several years figuring out how I learn. Thank you.

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No matter how hard you try, you are never going to get through to this person. All they care about is their agenda and finding anyone willing to stroke their heavily inflated ego. Ultimately, no one else's opinions matter.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

No matter how hard you try, you are never going to get through to this person. All they care about is their agenda and finding anyone willing to stroke their heavily inflated ego. Ultimately, no one else's opinions matter.

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Ah yes the issue is my "inflated" ego, not people covering for purposeful bad play. Please do continue with the zingers.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

You are making it to be way harder than what it is. Considering, atleast with WHM as it's the healer is did Eden Gate Savage on, you really only use 3 of your AoE healing abilities, 4 if you have to use Cure 3 for some reason. Medica 2 is going to do most of your heavy lifting, Asylum is better as you don't lose a gcd. However, it's a bit more limited due to CD. You use a lily or a buffed lily if you need spot healing fast. Assize is used as a pure damage cd. It's all very simple and doesn't take alot to learn. What you are talking about is learning content, not a job. Also alot of the issue you are talking about happen in prog, as you shouldn't be running in recovery scenarios in clear runs.

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But one doesn't go to end game content to learn their class.

By the time a player is in savage content, they should have learned their role and class.

We're not talking about those players.

We're talking the players still learning their class and therefore using the duty finder. You can't get upset at getting paired with under-performing players in duty finder because you chose to enter the duty finder without a full group. Which means you have given the ok to be paired with players who are not experts at their class or role or may even be still learning their role/class or returning from a break and may be rusty.

Not all of us have a desire to do end game content that requires the performance of your rotation and mechanics to near perfection in order to progress. Some of us are just fine as long as progress being made in normal content. That progress may be as simple as a wipe at 75% the first time and then a wipe at 50% the next time. That's progress. Might not be the speed of progress that you prefer from non-end game content. And people in general tend to learn more from failure than success. Especially in instances where success may be by pure coincidence.

So some of us the end goal of learning our class may not be as far as someone who aims to try for world firsts in savage raiding.

Yes, the game could do more in encouraging players to increase their skill level. But it needs to tread carefully with any difficulty increase, should that happen, as to not alienate too many of the people who would fall below any new minimum level required. A sharp increase would likely cause more harm than a gradual increase.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

You are making it to be way harder than what it is.

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So...am I to take from this the following:

• You do not think players in savage can make mistakes that cause healers to need to make snap decisions on how to deal with that
• You think players only make mistakes at convenient times when it's easy to fix and not at bad times when recovering from it can be difficult or even impossible
• You think that no one ever has to rethink when they use their cds earlier in the fight due to the demands that come later in the fight
• You think it takes just one pull to see exactly how little healing you can get away with even if you do not know exactly when the next hard hitting ability is because you have not experienced it yet
• You think that every single savage boss in the game follows only one pattern of mechanics with zero deviation that could cause a healer to make different choices in what they do

I didn't say savage healing is some sort of incredibly complex journey that only the most dedicated can complete. Yet you are acting as if I said this. I only pointed out that healers absolutely need to learn how to deal with the unexpected to be able to play effectively in savage.

Savage is very pattern heavy, it's true. But players are not. Players are unpredictable because people are flawed. They make mistakes, and the team needs to learn how to deal with mistakes quickly to be able to press on with a pull to get to success sooner. It is essential for healers to have snap decision making to complete savage because that is required to get through progress which is riddled with mistakes even if you read guides. And learning that skill well enough to be at a good base for savage can only be done through dealing with the unpredictability of players by doing DF content.

You're grasping at straws with this line of conversation and frankly making yourself look as if you don't know what it's like to heal in savage. I think you're just salty because I countered your "you should read class guides before doing content" with saying that healers need to do content to learn how to heal.

Imagine being offended when someone says that spamming buttons at a dummy you read about in a guide will not teach you how to heal. Lol.

I mean you kind of become numb to savage after doing it for multiple xpacs. Furthermore, I stand by my statement that reading a guide is the way. Even for healing, as those go into depth of when to or when not to use certain abilities over others. Also, when I was healing savage my cohealer was dead weight, so I was having to carry healing that tier.

Guides for healers are pretty important too.

I've seen a lot of people that never used more than fourth of their healing kit and then either refusing to take any advice when struggling ("i know what im doing thanks") or throw blame on other party members when someone dies.
Most of those are also "hands-on learners" that went wrong path at some point.
Hell, i was like that in the beginning until i actually watched/read few job guides. Didn't take long to pick up the pace and healing comfortably everywhere.

Please, even if you prefer hands-on approach, please still check out a guide or two at least for some insight about how can you make your and other party member's life easier later.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Ah yes the issue is my "inflated" ego, not people covering for purposeful bad play. Please do continue with the zingers.

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Nobody likes "purposeful" bad play, because that is what we usually call trolling (well, nobody except the trolls themselves, probably). Maybe consider to stop always assuming that when people are not performing as well as you would like when they're playing with you--especially during content where you're paired randomly with millions other random players, each with their own situation and circumstance--that they're doing it "purposefully", as if they're moustache-twirling villains chuckling at the sight of the Great Caurcas breaking his back trying to carry the whole team.

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Originally Posted by MyakotApelsia

Guides for healers are pretty important too.

I've seen a lot of people that never used more than fourth of their healing kit and then either refusing to take any advice when struggling ("i know what im doing thanks") or throw blame on other party members when someone dies.
Most of those are also "hands-on learners" that went wrong path at some point.
Hell, i was like that in the beginning until i actually watched/read few job guides. Didn't take long to pick up the pace and healing comfortably everywhere.

Please, even if you prefer hands-on approach, please still check out a guide or two at least for some insight about how can you make your and other party member's life easier later.

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I agree with this. Seeing guides is generally useful for all jobs, to better prepare oneself when they're thrown practicing on the real content.

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Originally Posted by LaughingBanana

Nobody likes "purposeful" bad play, because that is what we usually call trolling (well, nobody except the trolls themselves, probably). Maybe consider to stop always assuming that when people are not performing as well as you would like when they're playing with you, that they're doing it "purposefully"

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Depends on the context i guess. If someone is performing badly and doesn't want to get any help, I'd personally consider it to be "purposeful".

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Originally Posted by MyakotApelsia

Depends on the context i guess. If someone is performing badly and doesn't want to get any help, I'd personally consider it to be "purposeful".

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Well yes, it's not like I like when people who are performing badly is replying harshly or unfavorably when they're being given advice on what to do. I think there is a disconnect in that folks are assuming that people who disagreed with the OP are happy when things like that are happening--no we're not, of course we'd--or at least I--would be displeased.

The difference is at that at least I, personally, wouldn't automatically think badly of any players or any team that is not performing well when doing content. My first reaction to them wouldn't be that they're doing it out of malicious intentions, and I try to be accommodating as much as possible since I couldn't possibly know their situation and I'm not gonna judge them because of that, especially since like I said, using DF means understanding that you are being paired randomly with millions other people, each with their own unique situation and circumstance. You couldn't possibly hope of expecting that every time you are using it you are going to always get what you want to get (although I found that the whole "the entire community is filled of entirely incompetent people" as an extreme exaggeration)

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Originally Posted by LaughingBanana

The difference is at that at least I, personally, wouldn't automatically think badly of any players or any team that is not performing well when doing content.

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Depends on the level too.
While I don't always think badly of everyone who is struggling by default, i do get extreme concern when someone is struggling at 70+ content.
Not everyone shares same reaction as you or me though, and i know quite a bit of people that don't tolerate well bad players in 80lvl content and i can understand it - you would expect player to understand what they are doing by the time they finished ARR and 3 expansions. Mechanic markers, at least basic rotation (have you ever seen red mage that only used melee attacks in nier tower?), basic knowledge of the kit they have.

And it's true, df can group you with various players, but even then, expecting competence is... Well, to be expected. XIV is an mmorpg, a team game. You don't play solo, you play with others, so its only fair to expect people to not try to let others down. But it still happens from time to time. Kinda why i usually disagree with notion of "you signed up for df, deal with it".