Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Also rawker jusy to add on to your tag at the bottom every single time he casts embrace we get a random quote like “sic em Torgal” or “my wounds boy”

Make it happen square

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There. updated my signature.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Then it turns the meme worthy ablility is so good that they will have to nerf it and then buff the other class its competing with about 4 more times to make it comparable.

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I found it really amusing when the community memed on Expedience and laughed at it after seeing it, most of them calling it bad and a waste of capstone ability slot. Meanwhile, everyone I was talking to at the time immediately saw how broken it was to have both a 20s mit and a 20s sprint on one ability.

It was really funny to see the community suddenly about-face and call Expedience too good after EW released and they got to use it for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I found it really amusing when the community memed on Expedience and laughed at it after seeing it, most of them calling it bad and a waste of capstone ability slot. Meanwhile, everyone I was talking to at the time immediately saw how broken it was to have both a 20s mit and a 20s sprint on one ability.

It was really funny to see the community suddenly about-face and call Expedience too good after EW released and they got to use it for themselves.

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To be totally fair it was hilariously poorly shown

We had no idea initially it had a mitigation, it didn’t look like sprint in the video, instead looking like something around a peleton at best, the lala simply moving out of the AOE at worst and we had no idea it was a 20 second ability rather than a 5/10/15 second one

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I found it really amusing when the community memed on Expedience and laughed at it after seeing it, most of them calling it bad and a waste of capstone ability slot. Meanwhile, everyone I was talking to at the time immediately saw how broken it was to have both a 20s mit and a 20s sprint on one ability.

It was really funny to see the community suddenly about-face and call Expedience too good after EW released and they got to use it for themselves.

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Truthfully, I feel like having both the mitigation and movespeed buffs on the same ability kind of defeats the purpose. Mitigation is to reduce incoming damage that presumably cannot be avoided, but movespeed exists to allow the party to avoid damage. You can argue that it's sort of a "if you don't get one, you get the other scenario," but I still don't really like that particular aspect.

I think the movespeed buff by itself would've been the perfect thing to replace the attack speed buff on Selene. Eos gives you more healing, allowing you to conserve resources like Aetherflow for damage when your party knows the fight. Selene gives you perhaps the mitigation on one skill and the movespeed on the other, giving your party more room for error on performing mechanics correctly. Two far more balanced faeries when compared to one another rather than what they were before Shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

To be totally fair it was hilariously poorly shown

We had no idea initially it had a mitigation, it didn’t look like sprint in the video, instead looking like something around a peleton at best, the lala simply moving out of the AOE at worst and we had no idea it was a 20 second ability rather than a 5/10/15 second one

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I meant after the job info all came out. People were still memeing it, saying stuff like "who needs more mitigation?" and "we can just press sprint lol". Then the savage tier came out and we got mechanics like Pinax and Act 2 where both the sprint and the mitigation are useful, then people stopped memeing it and started saying how good it was.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Truthfully, I feel like having both the mitigation and movespeed buffs on the same ability kind of defeats the purpose. Mitigation is to reduce incoming damage that presumably cannot be avoided, but movespeed exists to allow the party to avoid damage. You can argue that it's sort of a "if you don't get one, you get the other scenario," but I still don't really like that particular aspect.

I think the movespeed buff by itself would've been the perfect thing to replace the attack speed buff on Selene. Eos gives you more healing, allowing you to conserve resources like Aetherflow for damage when your party knows the fight. Selene gives you perhaps the mitigation on one skill and the movespeed on the other, giving your party more room for error on performing mechanics correctly. Two far more balanced faeries when compared to one another rather than what they were before Shadowbringers.

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That’s my only dislike about expedient, the fact that it is also mitigation in an expansion based on mitigation and SCH has restrictions on its most prolific mitigation (sacred soil) 9 times out of 10 you press expedient for its mitigation effect and the sprint it just kinda there

Like it’s not like sprint is ever not useful bits it’s very rare the occasion you are pressing expedient specifically to generate the sprint over generating extra free mitigation

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That’s my only dislike about expedient, the fact that it is also mitigation in an expansion based on mitigation and SCH has restrictions on its most prolific mitigation (sacred soil) 9 times out of 10 you press expedient for its mitigation effect and the sprint it just kinda there

Like it’s not like sprint is ever not useful bits it’s very rare the occasion you are pressing expedient specifically to generate the sprint over generating extra free mitigation

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And to be fair, I do think it can be cool to have one ability with multiple effects where only one of those effects will really apply to a given situation, and a part of the interaction with that skill is choosing which situation to apply it to. That does go alone with some of Scholar's identity of having to make a choice between different things, but I don't think Expedient does that very well specifically because of what you're saying.

Giving Deployment Tactics the ability to work like Bane when targeting enemies, like how it works in PVP... Now that's a better example of that design element at play. Do you spread barriers on your team, or DOTs on your enemies? In PVE, though, the choice would ultimately cater to the situation a lot more than how it works in PVP, since AOE in PVE is an afterthought at best and not the focus of the combat system.

Even when Expedient was first shown, I was working on the assumption that it was 10s mit and 10s sprint, and I still tried to say in reddit threads that it'd be busted for any mechanic that requires moving AND unavoidable damage at once. QuickMarch, Heavensfall, Tenstrike Trios, Ultimate Annihilation/Suppression/Aetheric Boom, etc. And the general response I got was, of all things, 'yeh but those are level 70 mechanics, this is a level 90 skill'. Like, ??? what kind of stupid response, IDK why I bothered

For the most part, it is a case of 'use it for mit, sprint is a nice bonus'. I think SE's problem was, when they announced it, they explained it as 'a partywide sprint with mit attached', rather than 'a powerful mit with a unique partywide sprint attached'. The mit half of the move has way more usecases than a sprint does, so putting more focus on that would have probably helped sell the skill to people a bit more at the time

True but then you run into the problem of a 10% mitigation isn’t exactly going to wow anyone

Like objectively mitigation is the strongest aspect of a healers toolkit but it isn’t exactly the most exciting thing to press compared to visible mitigation like spreadlo, the sprint is the more interesting part but is also the less used part

Like I mean if SCH’s 100 skill is another 10% mitigation objectively it will propel SCH into the stratosphere for how powerful it is, but it’s still a relatively uninteresting skill

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

True but then you run into the problem of a 10% mitigation isn’t exactly going to wow anyone

Like objectively mitigation is the strongest aspect of a healers toolkit but it isn’t exactly the most exciting thing to press compared to visible mitigation like spreadlo, the sprint is the more interesting part but is also the less used part

Like I mean if SCH’s 100 skill is another 10% mitigation objectively it will propel SCH into the stratosphere for how powerful it is, but it’s still a relatively uninteresting skill

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Uninteresting to some, but for me, another mitigation is very much welcomed. For as long as we're also given new tools and potentially bring back that what was taken away from us to fill in the void and not just spam broil til the next calamity.

Way too many mitigation tools everywhere those days. The only place where I felt everything had to be kitchen sunk just in order to survive was harrowing hell without tank LB3...

In the meantime all those mitigation tools render rphys party wides less and less prevalent, putting the role even more in the grave than it already is.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Way too many mitigation tools everywhere those days. The only place where I felt everything had to be kitchen sunk just in order to survive was harrowing hell without tank LB3...

In the meantime all those mitigation tools render rphys party wides less and less prevalent, putting the role even more in the grave than it already is.

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There is too much mitigation in general but mitigation is far more a shield healer thing than it is a phys ranged thing

It also runs with the problem that since both the barrier healers have so much mitigation, they are the better comp.

Square just needs to get over its PTSD of kefka and bring back white hole as a mechanic type

It’s literally the only mechanic type that regen healers are objectively superior at if they refuse to nerf the pure healing of the shield healers

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

There is too much mitigation in general but mitigation is far more a shield healer thing than it is a phys ranged thing

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It's funny how the winds have turned isn't it?

But no, I'm talking about support in general. Just compare the amount of crap they have with how much they had before.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Square just needs to get over its PTSD of kefka and bring back white hole as a mechanic type

It’s literally the only mechanic type that regen healers are objectively superior at if they refuse to nerf the pure healing of the shield healers

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THey really do seem to have an aversion to fights that were an extreme challenge to the community. Hardly anything like A3s, A4s, A8s or Kefka.

Kefka was a challenge?

(I did love the fight though)

All I was thinking when the tooltip for Expedient came out was "Wow SCH can do -anything-! That's one mit that will stick on the player when they need to leave Soil!".

Didn't actually expect the button to be -this- powerful... oh and of course they had to widen Soil's radius by 6.3 lmao which frankly upsetting. Aside from thinking less where to drop it, it's also HUGE. Those VFX aren't designed to be that wide & can be obstructive at times.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

All I was thinking when the tooltip for Expedient came out was "Wow SCH can do -anything-! That's one mit that will stick on the player when they need to leave Soil!".

Didn't actually expect the button to be -this- powerful... oh and of course they had to widen Soil's radius by 6.3 lmao which frankly upsetting. Aside from thinking less where to drop it, it's also HUGE. Those VFX aren't designed to be that wide & can be obstructive at times.

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The radius became huge because spazmatic DPS refused to step 5 steps toward the center of the arena and hung out in Narnia.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Kefka was a challenge?

(I did love the fight though)

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I don't think Kefka was that much of a challenge. The most I've seen was WHM players struggling with aggro on the Heartless Angel at the start.

It's a fun fight, but it's not that challenging if people do the mechanics in the right order.

I will never not miss Searing Wind and Briny Mirror.

Briny mirror forcing a healer swap and calculated heals was a fantastic idea for a mechanic

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Briny mirror forcing a healer swap and calculated heals was a fantastic idea for a mechanic

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Or you did what I did and macro'd Embrace to Stoneskin, since neither Stoneskin nor Embrace would trigger Briny Mirror's effect. It's funny how thinking about it, that would be a fantastic mechanic for Fey Union now.

It is sad in how now much mechs for healers are just light party stacks now. Hardly anything like say searing wind or Briny mirror or heck even the old debuffs from ramuh where if you got too many orbs, you got less healing.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

It is sad in how now much mechs for healers are just light party stacks now. Hardly anything like say searing wind or Briny mirror or heck even the old debuffs from ramuh where if you got too many orbs, you got less healing.

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Not even the dragon heads from Shinryu, where the mechanic is literally to spam heals on a target. You'd think SE would love that mechanic, but no. That is I think still the only instance where any fight outside a specific healer job quest or healer role quest asks you to heal a 3rd party.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Briny mirror forcing a healer swap and calculated heals was a fantastic idea for a mechanic

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I tried to Google it, But can't find anything. What is that mechanic?

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Originally Posted by Eastwall

I tried to Google it, But can't find anything. What is that mechanic?

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Looks like it's from Whorleater (Extreme). Briny Mirror is a debuff on one of the tanks. Healing that tank gives the healer a stacking debuff that reduces the effectiveness of (some of) their heals, hence "forcing a healer swap and calculated heals."

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Originally Posted by Eastwall

I tried to Google it, But can't find anything. What is that mechanic?

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To explain what Apkallu said a bit more clearly, during Leviathan, you have a main tank and off tank who tank the head and tail of Leviathan respectively. The off tank is inflicted with briny mirror often enough that the debuff is basically permanent unless there is a tank swap or the tank dies. How the debuff works is every time you heal that tank, the healer gets a stacking debuff that reduces the range and radius of their spells. Single target spells like Stone or Cure have to be cast at closer range to the target, while AOE spells have the radius of their effect gradually reduced. If you heal the off tank too much too quickly without letting the debuff fall off, the range and radius of your spells becomes 0, meaning you cannot target anyone farther than yourself with single target heals, and your AOE heals will not reach anyone but yourself until the debuff wears off.

This did not effect Eos, and the debuff would only apply if you restored HP to the target, so Stoneskin (A GCD barrier with no healing attached), or mitigation buffs wouldn't proc it. The idea was you'd need to perform a healer swap every so often where one healer stands far away from the off tank to avoid healing them with AOEs. It also meant that Regens were a lot more powerful for such a mechanic because the debuff would only proc on the initial cast, marking one of the few times where Regens are encouraged by mechanics.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Not even the dragon heads from Shinryu, where the mechanic is literally to spam heals on a target. You'd think SE would love that mechanic, but no.

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Maybe it's because they thought 'hey healers should be about healing, let's make them have a mechanic where they have to heal to solve it' and then realized that actually, there's quite a few players that aren't great at the 'healing' side of healing, be that running out of MP, not using OGCD heals correctly, or the greeders ignoring things to chase parses

I jest, but only partially. I also wonder why they haven't done such a mechanic more often, my guess is something akin to 'it's hard to balance such a mechanic when there's such a vast disparity in how much healing certain healers have access to, and what profile that healing takes'. For example, if it were a mechanic where the healers have to fill one target's HP bar, Benediction is an 'I win' button and instantly solves the mechanic. If there's multiple targets to heal (like Shinryu EX), and they all start at 1HP, then Essential Dignity skyrockets in value due to its 'missing HP' scaling thing. Half of the healing tools would not affect such targets, due to being AOE (unless some very specific coding took place), so some healers would suffer more than others (eg SGE being able to Pneuma 4 targets vs not being able to is quite a hefty difference).

It's why I've advocated for 'shield checks' to be a thing (by giving all healers access to AOE shielding with varying degrees of effectiveness/accessibility, as an inverse sliding scale to their 'pure healing' capability, so being good at one means being not-good at the other), and those 'shield checks' to be binary 'is a shield present, yes/no' checks, rather than 'you need XYZ HP worth of shielding to successfully resolve'

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Maybe it's because they thought 'hey healers should be about healing, let's make them have a mechanic where they have to heal to solve it' and then realized that actually, there's quite a few players that aren't great at the 'healing' side of healing, be that running out of MP, not using OGCD heals correctly, or the greeders ignoring things to chase parses

I jest, but only partially. I also wonder why they haven't done such a mechanic more often, my guess is something akin to 'it's hard to balance such a mechanic when there's such a vast disparity in how much healing certain healers have access to, and what profile that healing takes'. For example, if it were a mechanic where the healers have to fill one target's HP bar, Benediction is an 'I win' button and instantly solves the mechanic. If there's multiple targets to heal (like Shinryu EX), and they all start at 1HP, then Essential Dignity skyrockets in value due to its 'missing HP' scaling thing. Half of the healing tools would not affect such targets, due to being AOE (unless some very specific coding took place), so some healers would suffer more than others (eg SGE being able to Pneuma 4 targets vs not being able to is quite a hefty difference).

It's why I've advocated for 'shield checks' to be a thing (by giving all healers access to AOE shielding with varying degrees of effectiveness/accessibility, as an inverse sliding scale to their 'pure healing' capability, so being good at one means being not-good at the other), and those 'shield checks' to be binary 'is a shield present, yes/no' checks, rather than 'you need XYZ HP worth of shielding to successfully resolve'

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I mean, they made a mechanic where Macrocosmos was an "I win" button. I'd hate to think that no one thought to consider macrocosmos when designing P3S, but honestly seeing how little care gets put into healers in this game, it's almost assuredly what happened.

But in all fairness, those situations are totally fine. As long as each healer has different fights where they have their own shining moment, and it's not just one healer that's always the objectively right answer, then that makes healers more interesting and fun. You don't need Astrologian for P3S, but it's cool to see how great it is for that paricular fight. Having a single target that needs to be healed from 1 to 100% like you said would be great to make so that White Mage can actually be good at something for a change anyway. And that does add a lot of value to "Pure healers" since they are the two that have the least value as far as healing and mitigation are concerned.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I mean, they made a mechanic where Macrocosmos was an "I win" button. I'd hate to think that no one thought to consider macrocosmos when designing P3S, but honestly seeing how little care gets put into healers in this game, it's almost assuredly what happened.
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The same job designers who didn't consider Macrocosmos "I Win" were the same ones who made bleeds harsh enough that had sages dumping their CD's.

What did that result in?

Players having their BUFFS not apply because our characters hit the buff max. . . in 2023/2024. We had a period where they had to increase the debuff limit on mobs because players hit the max, and now this.

They literally don't think about this stuff when designing combat and healers

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

The same job designers who didn't consider Macrocosmos "I Win" were the same ones who made bleeds harsh enough that had sages dumping their CD's.

What did that result in?

Players having their BUFFS not apply because our characters hit the buff max. . . in 2023/2024. We had a period where they had to increase the debuff limit on mobs because players hit the max, and now this.

They literally don't think about this stuff when designing combat and healers

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To be fair why do every single one of SGE’s heals have to apply two buffs to everyone

Why do you need to have unique buffs for kerechole’s mitigation and its regen, or holos shield and its mitigation

The buff cap is a problem of their own making caused by every savage mechanic being “solve your debuff vomit” but god damn could they cut down on pointless healer buff bloat that just indicates heals

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

To be fair why do every single one of SGE’s heals have to apply two buffs to everyone

Why do you need to have unique buffs for kerechole’s mitigation and its regen, or holos shield and its mitigation

The buff cap is a problem of their own making caused by every savage mechanic being “solve your debuff vomit” but god damn could they cut down on pointless healer buff bloat that just indicates heals

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The Holos barrier and mitigation effect make sense because if the mitigation is tied to the barrier, then the mitigation is lost when the barrier breaks. That being said, that's actually kind of cool. Make the mitigation stronger, but only last as long as the barrier does. Though I'm sure if the goal is to keep it as is, there could be a way to have an barrier persist even when the value is at 0 while still providing the effect.

Physis II is a weird one. The regen lasts 15 seconds, but the increased healing effect only lasts 10 seconds. Because as we know, 5 extra seconds of a 10% increase to healing would be so broken that it would basically destroy the healer balance beyond recognition.

Lets be honest Yoshi spits a lot of things that make no sence. A lot of things he says is just what players want to hear, even though they dont realise that what he said is actually bad for them and for the game.

Macrocosmos in P3S is 100% an oversight, because instead of setting your HP to 1 like other doom mechanics, clearing the debuff in Death's Toll overkills you by several millions.

As for the buff cap issue, that's why I think they should return to pre-ShB fight design. Let's look at O8S, he only really gives out 1 or 2 debuffs during his mechanics, most of the mechanics are done with invisible targeting, tethers and prey markers. Now let's look at P12S, some mechanics give you 3+ debuffs, some of the mechanics that those debuffs cause could also have been done with tethers or markers over the head, there was really no need for a debuff for everything.

Isn't it always fun to have to painfully parse through a full party list with everybody full of buffs and debuffs in order to find the ONE debuff you're looking for in an incoming mechanic? Nisi style in TEA, etc.

You'll have your debuff vomit and you'll like it.

I really don’t like debuff check mechanics. I don’t see why those mechanics aren’t just given different types of telegraph indicators that communicate the same information in a much clearer way. I mean, I know the answer is “to make it harder” but it’s only harder my a smidge, and not in a fun way either. Making the challenge about squinting at a tiny icon to know what you need to do rather than some numbers overlaying your character is a really artificial way of adding difficulty.

Kinda related to the topic, but I want to see more fights that feel less like you are managing game pieces, and more like the boss is genuinely trying to kill the party -- like the feeling should less resolving a mechanic, and more surviving an onslaught.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Kinda related to the topic, but I want to see more fights that feel less like you are managing game pieces, and more like the boss is genuinely trying to kill the party -- like the feeling should less resolving a mechanic, and more surviving an onslaught.

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I completely understand what you mean. I don't really feel like boss fights are a power struggle between us and them, but almost more of a stage play or something. That's kind of why I want to see more chaotic elements at play. Rather than the boss standing around doing nothing while casting an upcoming mechanic, I want to see a return of more layered, smaller mechanics. One mechanic starts, and two more start before the first has finished. Like orbs popping, adds that explode, random party members getting hit with small AOEs, random line AOEs firing through the arena, and any one of these mechanics doesn't necessarily need to hit all that hard if failed, so getting clipped by things doesn't feel like a failure, but a part of the chaos.

Actually I know I was making comparisons between p9s and o7s when it comes to randomness of party damage but looking back I remembered t10. T10 had head lightning which just targeted random people besides the wild charge target and then this was able to keep the pressure because it was completely who was going to get hit of the 7 and then you had to make sure you didn't get hit by the wild charge.