DRK Consolidated Feedback Thread

Sorry should have worded it better, I did not mean to make the claim that PLD never cleared or took part in content in 3.x, more so that the community backlash for those that played PLD was far worse then what DRK is going through right now, and in my opinion that fact alone is enough to reason to say DRK has it better then 3.x pld.

Like I said I rather be a weaker class then a class with a niche that gets mocked by the community at large for playing a class I enjoy. So in that respect I cannot in good faith say DRK has it worse then 3.x pld.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Sorry should have worded it better, I did not mean to make the claim that PLD never cleared or took part in content in 3.x, more so that the community backlash for those that played PLD was far worse then what DRK is going through right now, and in my opinion that fact alone is enough to reason to say DRK has it better then 3.x pld.

Like I said I rather be a weaker class then a class with a niche that gets mocked by the community at large for playing a class I enjoy. So in that respect I cannot in good faith say DRK has it worse then 3.x pld.

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Honestly, from what I remember, what we are seeing right now is not all that different from PLD in early 3.X.

It started out with a lot of "What are you talking about PLD is fine", "Look at all your new abilities, PLD is better than ever", "PLD got everything that people said they wanted in 2.X, you should be happy", "The tanks are all balanced", etc. not unlike what is happening with DRK right now.

It wasn't until later that PLD got to the "meme" level that it reached.

I would say it is still too early to say that the community is treating DRK more or less harshly than it did to PLD in 3.X as it is very very similar at this stage in the expansion cycle.

There is still a lot of time left in this expansion for DRK to reach that level.

I am looking forward to 5.0 and spouting occult nonsense of how PLD and WAR didn't have it as bad as DRK 4.x to use as rhetoric for shitty arguments so I can white knight job classes I like and blood knight on ones I hate.

GRUMP GRUMP

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

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I do agree, that is why in my other post I did mention DRK has not reached that point yet, but in my eyes while naive, until DRK hits that point trying to say DRK is far worse then 3.x PLD is pretty harsh.

Since ATM we still have hope, but that PSU interview did make me question the devs, and question what little hope we have left. Though I did figure something like that would happen when the WF group had a DRK in the group, most of us knew SE and the community were going to run with that fact.

Nevertheless, until we hit the low point pld did in 3.x saying that they were better off is disingenuous. While a pattern can be seen, I still have some hope SE will not let any job hit such a low point again. Guess I am dreaming.

End of the day though I guess the only metric cares about is overall community perception, at times that is what it feels like.

It didn't help that some of the community antagonized plds back then like some are doing drks now. They don't realize that a class can just as easily be put back on the bottom of the totem pole in the next expansion. If you truly enjoy tanking and your class you would argue for or support the one on the bottom each and every time so as the bottom bar goes up and the gap closes or at the very least doesn't become wider in terms of balance.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I do agree, that is why in my other post I did mention DRK has not reached that point yet, but in my eyes while naive, until DRK hits that point trying to say DRK is far worse then 3.x PLD is pretty harsh.

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But people aren't saying that DRK is worse in regards to current community outlook, they are saying they are worse in regards to overall current tank balance.

Those are two completely different things and just because the community hasn't meme-bombed DRK into oblivion, doesn't negate the data-backed arguments on current tank balance.

If your metric for what constitutes whether the state of a class is worse is based on community outlook, comparing the beginning of an expansion cycle against the end of an expansion cycle is still flawed. Negative outlook and "meme-itization" takes time.
The community outlook on the two jobs in the two expansions cannot be said to be better or worse at the moment, because we do not have proper full comparisons. The only direct comparisons that can be made is the state of PLD at the approx. 3.1-3.15 mark and DRK now at that same juncture in 4.X and as I stated they are very similar. You could even conclude based on what happened in 3.X to PLD and the current similarities to outlook in the expansion cycle, that if things stay the same in regards to tank balance then the trajectory of community opinion will be the same and DRK will end up in the same meme-worthy status as PLD was.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

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The PSU response can be chalked off as DRK cleared ultimate it is fine, so clearly SE is operating on the viable = balance mindset. As I said before I agree that we have no reached the lol drk status yet, but we will. Since community perception is probably the only metric they care about.
The PSU response can be chalked off as DRK cleared ultimate it is fine, so clearly SE is operating on the viable = balance mindset. As I said before I agree that we have no reached the lol drk status yet, but we will. Since community perception is probably the only metric they care about.

If we do look at each class through their respective patches, 3.x pld and 4.0 drk are not so far off, pld had a niche which from what I can tell SE rode to the bank, they were still viable until it was too late to make any meaningful changes to the class until the next expansion. That niche is what cemented them as the meh tank within the community.

DRK does not have a niche which is good for us since at the very least that gives us a chance granted it is a small one, but still chance. 3.x pld due to having a niche from the start, never had a chance once the community started to follow the speed kill meta even for causal to mid core things.

Since I am pretty sure the logic behind SE for not reworking pld during 3.x was based around the fact that they had niche they fulfilled which made them viable, when SE finally took off the blinders it was too late to make any real meaningful changes.

DRK still has a chance, it is a small one, and while I do not want to say it you are right, more likely history is going to repeat itself, but hey we have a chance, and chance pld never had. So yeah I still cannot agree with how pld was better off then we are now. PLD was running on borrowed time within the community. While DRK is in the same position at the moment, at least we have some position to take with the devs. "What is DRK good for?" In time I really do think they will have a hard time answering that question, and when that does happen we may get looked at.

Overall I do agree though DRK is the weakest tank, much weaker then probably even 3.x pld, but that weakness is what gives us a chance to be looked out before 5.0. I know that it may be a stretch, but I am willing to bank on that hope that SE will not let a class that has no strength go unchanged for an entire expansion. Pld never had that chance, because they had a niche SE could always fall back on if people asked what about pld.

English is not my strong suit so sorry.

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Go on FFLogs and look at the usage statistics for PLD throughout Midas and Creator. There were as many, and often more Paladins clearing the first three fights in each of those two tiers than there were Dark Knights, and the story is similar through most/all of the HW primals.

Paladin was only excluded at the high end, for groups doing speedruns. SB DRK is only doing marginally better in that regard than HW PLD was, except that HW PLD was useful and popular at the lower end. DRK is underperforming at all levels.

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So, you're comparing end-of-expansion PLD after multiple tweaks with start-of-expansion DRK now? Look at Gordias, where PLD stigma was formed. DRKs parses are twice PLDs. Even in Midas and Creator DRK was better but there is another factor coming in: HW PLD was much, much easier to play than DRK. So while DRK potential was higher, you've needed to work hard for your higher place. SB PLD, being FoTM job, still not that hard and those players who can't handle DRK in HW can handle PLD in SB. Like with the BRD in ARR / RDM in SB casual people will like easier job more even its not better.

I've seen lots of parties exclude PLD from tank spot in HW and still yet to see the same with DRK now. Yes, tweaks and careful buffs are needed for DRK. But its not that bleak ppl like to present it. Our static's DRK left for irl reasons and as we can only find PLD player (language minority and all that stuff) im switching to DRK now. So far no problems.

Just some things I'd like for DRK:

Dark Passenger

• MP requirement and Dark Arts potency increase eliminated
• Make it usable when MP is at or below 20% (similar to Mercy Stroke)
• Increase potency to 300
• Remove Blind effect and add decrease magic resistance by 10% for 5 seconds

Blood Weapon
Make it useable in Grit but restores HP instead of MP

Delirium
When in Darkside, Large HP restore (to counter the fact that Souleater doesn't restore HP.) Similar to Equilibrium.

Blackest Night

• DA potency - A protective barrier is cast on all party members within a radius of 15 yalms
• Barrier Effect: Prevents damage up to 10% of your maximum HP for 30sec.
• Grants 5 Blood for each barrier broken.

Exactly that. The PSU interview basically confirmed our fears. Basically, because a DRK beat ultimate the job is perfectly fine and needs no adjustments. I guess we will have to wait for the PLD 3.X treatment to take full effect and people excluding DRKs from party finder and other content for the job to be acknowledged.