Yoshida gives update on the benchmark/character creator

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

However, why they changed such features as Moon-Keeper fangs etc., I don't know. Aside from doing it to try to push realism (which has been received badly across most of the communities from what I hear), I can't think of any other reason for which they would consciously elect to do it, particularly after saying they would try to keep characters as close to their current appearance as possible. Unless it was an outcome of the adjustments, but for as many posts that I've seen suggesting the slight feature changes are unavoidable for technical reasons, I've seen an equal number saying that not to be the case.

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Even after Yoshi-P's statement we don't really know what changes were on purpose. The Moonkeeper fangs could be related to the "mouth scaling" he mentioned. Or the mysterious "special data processes" issue. He also lists those things as "examples of issues", not a full list of all the problems, so even if Moonkeeper fangs aren't one of those they could be a different issue that wasn't listed. And even if Benchmark 2 comes out and the fangs are longer, we might not ever know for sure if it was a bug that got fixed or if it was changed back as a response to negative feedback.

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Originally Posted by Nebty

The face/mouth sculpt issue is likely tied to:

1) Faces apparently having over 50 new bones now, which are going to introduce some rigging issues (I'm thinking mouth/facial expression bugs fall into this category).

2) The new facial animation workflow that involves having a standard head mesh and then morphing it into each different head to cut down on animation time. I think this is probably the reason for the keeper fang nerf because it's easier to do something like this when there are fewer differences, and Suncats don't have fangs. It's also probably responsible for the general homogenization of unique facial features (mouths either getting narrower, fuller, sudden appearance/removal of dimples, etc).

The changes caused by #2 are among the biggest issues currently being vocalized by the playerbase and I think the feedback they've received will make them more likely to reincorporate those differences as much as they're able. Which, as a Face 2 Fem Au Ra player I'm really really hoping for (their unique mouth shape now looks way more like Face 1). Fingers crossed that keeper fangs make a return.

I'm also just generally worried about the quality of facial animations under the new system if it's this buggy only two months before release. Are we going to have Mass Effect Andromeda levels of "oh god what is my character's face doing???" with the new standardization? Already not a big fan of the creepy smile in the Dawntrail Benchmark, or the persistent duckface some characters seem to be getting.

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Thank you! I don't have any tech background and so my knowledge of this side of things comes entirely from what others post.

So these adjustments may have been made consciously, but more as a way of making animations easier in future. In which case, they would be able to change such features back again, albeit at the possible cost of flaws/difficulties in animation later down the line?

I didn't really mind the feature changes too much, but I also wouldn't be too bothered about a few strange animation appearances at the beginning. It might be a little immersion breaking in a key cutscene, but then there's bound to be a few problems to be ironed out early on. Unless I'm severely underestimating how long such a fix would take

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Originally Posted by Nebty

Already not a big fan of the creepy smile in the Dawntrail Benchmark, or the persistent duckface some characters seem to be getting.

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If I'm being honest, we've been fawning over derplander looking so handsome and sexy in the trailer with a subtle/confident smirk.

What we got instead feels more in line with a Kubrick stare shot, sadly it's not helped by the shadows, eerie/creepy smile, dead serial killer eyes that have no light.

What I saw vs what first came to my mind.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kgiuQwzB6aU/maxresdefault.jpg
https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/p...tares_5166.jpg

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

Thank you! I don't have any tech background and so my knowledge of this side of things comes entirely from what others post.

So these adjustments may have been made consciously, but more as a way of making animations easier in future. In which case, they would be able to change such features back again, albeit at the possible cost of flaws/difficulties in animation later down the line?

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Or it may just be an issue of CBU3 putting out the Benchmark with a version of these head meshes that aren't 100% feature complete. It sounds like they've been continuing to tweak things but those changes haven't been incorporated yet. So, for example, maybe the current Keeper teeth mesh was based on one that was made for Seekers and they hadn't 100% finished modelling the fangs. Same with some of the mouth issues - they start from a base of one of the faces (probably the ones that ended up transferring over the easiest) and then tinker with the others until all of the differences carry over.

That's what I'm hoping, at least, because that just means they need more time to add in those small distinctions so every face mesh looks unique again.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

If I'm being honest, we've been fawning over derplander looking so handsome and sexy in the trailer with a subtle/confident smirk.

What we got instead feels more in line with a Kubrick stare shot, sadly it's not helped by the shadows, eerie/creepy smile, dead serial killer eyes that have no light.

What I saw vs what first came to my mind.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kgiuQwzB6aU/maxresdefault.jpg
https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/p...tares_5166.jpg

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i had to try something

https://i.imgur.com/3ITiMQD.jpeghttps://i.imgur.com/4WWC0Ni.png

I don't mind it as much, but I prefer to make characters that are kind of unhinged freaks?

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Keywords being "want to". There has not been a "we will" from Yoshi-P yet. That's my point.

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You are literally being a actual doomer right now, chill out lol

With the caveat that I don't know enough about Blender to double check any of this, I saw an interesting twitter post that may explain why a lot of these differences are happening.

https://i.imgur.com/HXCyLTv.png
https://i.imgur.com/sQTfWxa.png
https://i.imgur.com/ado5aym.png

This tracks with what I've observed about the new models. I don't think they've actually been 100% redone (though I think some of the mouth differences might be touch ups, and there's definitely new teeth in there, plus the previously mentioned 50 new bones). But they've been put through the Blender equivalent of a belt sander. It smooths out the polygons, but without additional detail work some of the character of the original sculpt gets lost.

The differences in the lips in the examples above is pretty stark once you're looking at it without any lighting or texture. The definition of the cupid's bow is much less visible because of the smoothing. Same thing with the shape and size of the nose/nostrils.

I've also noticed that the bugs that the original face meshes had (neck gaps, face seams) still seem to be there, to a greater or lesser extent.

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Originally Posted by Roda

i had to try something
I don't mind it as much, but I prefer to make characters that are kind of unhinged freaks?

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Yup, and this is why I'm so disappointed in face 4 femra going cutesy-utsy and princess as can be. My au ra is supposed to look fierce, darn it!

Let us hope they include the nerfed Keeper fangs and make em more like the original again.

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Originally Posted by FakeCirka

You are literally being a actual doomer right now, chill out lol

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So? We know SE's mentality. They havent mentioned it because A: Judging by their personality, they dont think its a problem. B: They dont know what to do about it, and JP will be right on demand to delay the playable char graphics changes

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Originally Posted by Nebty

With the caveat that I don't know enough about Blender to double check any of this, I saw an interesting twitter post that may explain why a lot of these differences are happening.

https://i.imgur.com/HXCyLTv.png

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To be fair. The old faces do not have much details, that could be killed. ;) And many details are caused by buggy normal maps. And since SQEX fixed the normal maps, many details will go away.


Cheers

Sounds like they shouldn't "fix" the normal maps in a way that annihilates what the eye perceives as detail, then.

No mention about eyebrows is worrying :(

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Originally Posted by HollowedDoll

How does shit bait like this get so many likes, literally neither of these are XIV models..
This looks like something some 1st year made in Blender for homework.

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Nobody claimed they were ffxiv models, it's just an example to show you what they're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

To be fair. The old faces do not have much details, that could be killed. ;) And many details are caused by buggy normal maps. And since SQEX fixed the normal maps, many details will go away.


Cheers

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I agree that the old normals were buggy as heck and needed fixes, but it doesn't need to be an either/or thing. Which is why I'm glad the devs are listening to feedback and that a lot of people have pointed out exactly where these details - intended or otherwise - have been lost.

Smoother does not always equal better, but it's also not impossible to add that definition back through mesh or texture adjustments. And I don't blame the devs for not realizing just how detail-oriented their fanbase is. I guess I just find it interesting to speculate about why the changes might have happened. I may not even be correct here.

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Originally Posted by TheCat

Nobody claimed they were ffxiv models, it's just an example to show you what they're talking about.

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Even if I had access to the new face models why on earth would I post them on the official forum? You'd need modding tools for that. :P

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Originally Posted by Nebty

With the caveat that I don't know enough about Blender to double check any of this, I saw an interesting twitter post that may explain why a lot of these differences are happening.

https://i.imgur.com/HXCyLTv.png
https://i.imgur.com/sQTfWxa.png
https://i.imgur.com/ado5aym.png

This tracks with what I've observed about the new models. I don't think they've actually been 100% redone (though I think some of the mouth differences might be touch ups, and there's definitely new teeth in there, plus the previously mentioned 50 new bones). But they've been put through the Blender equivalent of a belt sander. It smooths out the polygons, but without additional detail work some of the character of the original sculpt gets lost.

The differences in the lips in the examples above is pretty stark once you're looking at it without any lighting or texture. The definition of the cupid's bow is much less visible because of the smoothing. Same thing with the shape and size of the nose/nostrils.

I've also noticed that the bugs that the original face meshes had (neck gaps, face seams) still seem to be there, to a greater or lesser extent.

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This isn't what they did. Just simply adding a subdivision modifier would simply just stretch and distort the model due to low poly. There is a reason this post only shows the model with no textures. If you don't believe me, you can grab the model yourself (6.5) and do this and you would see this isn't what they done.
They updated the models properly with adjustments and more polygons. I understand people don't like the changes and so people are trying to figure out what went on but I personally think they just smoothed out rough edges and it changed a lot of things people liked/are used to.
https://twitter.com/BizuArt/status/1782292918608478594 UV's are the same with slight changes.
https://twitter.com/kailn_ffxiv/stat...69950204612815 More polygons and more details.