Viera Changes

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Originally Posted by EBlaidd

I am very, probably too much, in love with how my character looks currently. To me, he is perfect in every way. Most of the time I spend in game, outside of battle, I am simply enjoying and appreciating his beauty. It hit me very hard to see how different he looked. My favorite things about his dramatic eyes and lips are muted or ironed away.

All feedback here applies to Male Viera, Veena, Face 4

Main issues:

• Eye size/shape: eyes appear smaller in 7.0 benchmark vs 6.0. The key feature of a larger eye is now lost, because the prominent eyelid is gone, makeup is softened, and shape appears to have been changed slightly in the inner corner to a closer, more downward slanting shape.
• Lip shape: lips appear flatter and more rounded in 7.0 vs 6.0 which removes their unique character and distinct look. The shape of the lip color is also very different and much more opaque, the matte texture contributes to the flat appearance.
• Lower eyelash Facial Feature: lower eyelash feature is black in 6.0 and matches hair in 7.0, which changes the look of the eye very drastically on light-haired characters from what we are used to and contributes to the smaller look of the eye. Black lashes are what we are used to with this face.
• Eyeliner Tattoo: not as large nor as prominent in 7.0 vs 6.0. Eyeliner has become smaller and less noticeable. Contributes to the overall smaller and weaker appearance of the eyes.

As someone who likes extremes and dramatic visuals, who chose Face 4 for these Michael-angelo-esque details in the first place, I hope that these issues can be considered. I currently use all these features at max value, so there is no upward adjustment I can make to increase their intensity.

These features together as they are in Endwalker lend a classical beauty to male viera Face 4 that I hope can be preserved with some changes. Whoever designed this face did so lovingly and with amazing talent, and I hope that their artistic vision and hard work can be preserved.

Thank you to the Devs for your time and consideration.

https://i.imgur.com/qamXgve.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/4Ivu5Jm.png
https://i.imgur.com/Maedfi5.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7macanU.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5eSNZp3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/feTExc0.png
https://i.imgur.com/k6u2kuv.png
https://i.imgur.com/4dMJic3.png
https://i.imgur.com/vdFt6qX.png

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Male Viera Face 4 user here as well. I joined the forums to say this but you've beaten me to it, and you've stated my own thoughts far more eloquently than I could have. Face 4 is absolutely gorgeous, and I'm genuinely concerned about the features being changed so drastically. My character looks like an off brand version of himself now.

I hope this is not inappropriate to post, but I have compared the textures of old and new male viera face 3. I think it very clear where the changes are and I hope they can be addressed. I do not like the prominent chin and jowls look that the face never had this before, mouth and nose are shaded very differently.

I am a 3D artist, and I can see that face has been probably retopologized and certainly re-unwrapped, so I fully understand that features are not 100% analogous between the two textures, but it is still clear to see how changes were made.

Old <<<>>> New

https://i.imgur.com/MJ4SwPl.png
https://i.imgur.com/cWxVn3w.png

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Originally Posted by Tethan

I hope this is not inappropriate to post, but I have compared the textures of old and new male viera face 3. I think it very clear where the changes are and I hope they can be addressed. I do not like the prominent chin and jowls look that the face never had this before, mouth and nose are shaded very differently.

I am a 3D artist, and I can see that face has been probably retopologized and certainly re-unwrapped, so I fully understand that features are not 100% analogous between the two textures, but it is still clear to see how changes were made.

Old <<<>>> New

https://i.imgur.com/MJ4SwPl.png
https://i.imgur.com/cWxVn3w.png

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Great comparison but I do find this mildly disturbing and it reminds me of that woman in Dr Who who was just a flap of skin stretched out! Moisturise me!!

I don't want to be dramatic, but I'm actually heartbroken by the changes to bunnies.
I cannot understand how with a graphical upgrade characters have ended up looking downgraded :(

1. the eyes are horrible. they have no depth.
2. i haven't seen anyone mention it, but the sides of face 3 just look dirty! like he's been rolling in the mud.
3. the nose is a disaster. face 3 nose was so cute, and now the dark marking has changed the shape of the nose and it just looks bad
4. the chin of face 3 is awful. why such a bobbly chin?
5. the lips. the lips were so perfectly shaped before and now they've lost the shape and they are so flat
6. depth of makeup has gone.
7. everything just looks so dull and absolutely bland and ugly. All the depth that was there before has gone.

They've implemented weird plastic skin on characters as well, nuking out any actual definition that previously existed on the models, that's in no way an upgrade.

I feel like we've stepped back in time, not moved forward in regards of detail and definition.
Why mess with something that was so perfect to begin with *sobbing*
I asked my partner (who does not play the game) which characters looked higher quality between everyone screenshots, and 95% of the time he thought the current ones did.

Please bring in all the changes to environments and armour, looks amazing, but leave the characters faces alone. I am actually begging you SE, on my knees begging.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Great comparison but I do find this mildly disturbing and it reminds me of that woman in Dr Who who was just a flap of skin stretched out! Moisturise me!!

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Yes, face textures are always pretty creepy looking, these are not even so bad. But it is the best way to truly compare. No one can say it is just the light, these are just flat .png's and as neutral as can be. Not even accounting for mouth and nose, the feel and direction of male face 3 has completely changed, from smooth jaw and full cheeks, to jowls and sallow cheeks.

Vieras got hit the worst, but the male face 3 downgrade is especially grim

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Originally Posted by GodModule

Vieras got hit the worst, but the male face 3 downgrade is especially grim

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Isn’t it also the one Erenville is using? I wonder how he looks now

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Originally Posted by Tethan

I hope this is not inappropriate to post, but I have compared the textures of old and new male viera face 3. I think it very clear where the changes are and I hope they can be addressed. I do not like the prominent chin and jowls look that the face never had this before, mouth and nose are shaded very differently.

I am a 3D artist, and I can see that face has been probably retopologized and certainly re-unwrapped, so I fully understand that features are not 100% analogous between the two textures, but it is still clear to see how changes were made.

Old <<<>>> New

https://i.imgur.com/MJ4SwPl.png
https://i.imgur.com/cWxVn3w.png

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No wonder my character looked so different, that's a whole different person. Such drastic changes should not occur if your goal is for people to recognize their character...

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Originally Posted by SongOfTheWind

Isn’t it also the one Erenville is using? I wonder how he looks now

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My pet conspiracy theory is that Viera changes were mostly tested/tweaked on him and for him. Given his promotion as a character. It seems to go inline with how Veena clan specific features got overlooked (beauty mark bugged on them only, eyes are not theirs anymore, all lipstick is bugged on light tones, etc). The darkening of nose also makes sense for him, as it prevents its over shining and is not prominent at all, afaict. I am not sure what the face structural changes are for though

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tethan

I hope this is not inappropriate to post, but I have compared the textures of old and new male viera face 3. I think it very clear where the changes are and I hope they can be addressed. I do not like the prominent chin and jowls look that the face never had this before, mouth and nose are shaded very differently.

I am a 3D artist, and I can see that face has been probably retopologized and certainly re-unwrapped, so I fully understand that features are not 100% analogous between the two textures, but it is still clear to see how changes were made.

Old <<<>>> New

https://i.imgur.com/MJ4SwPl.png
https://i.imgur.com/cWxVn3w.png

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Hey, I'm really sorry to bother you, but this is exactly the kind of stuff I've been wanting to see so I'm really curious. I'm familiar with retopologizing, but only through hearsay. I've no real 3D knowledge. But what does "re-unwrapped" mean? And, very sorry for the stupider question, do these textures mean they actually have more of a hand in how three-dimensional shapes are perceived than not?

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Originally Posted by SongOfTheWind

My pet conspiracy theory is that Viera changes were mostly tested/tweaked on him and for him. Given his promotion as a character. It seems to go inline with how Veena clan specific features got overlooked (beauty mark bugged on them only, eyes are not theirs anymore, all lipstick is bugged on light tones, etc). The darkening of nose also makes sense for him, as it prevents its over shining and is not prominent at all. I am not sure what the face structural changes are for though

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It is possible. Dark faces benefit more from pigment variety to not look washed out or flat and the changes to jaw/chin are also less noticeable on very dark skin. Either way it is plain to see that there was not adequate care in recreating the old feel, for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by Doopliss

Hey, I'm really sorry to bother you, but this is exactly the kind of stuff I've been wanting to see so I'm really curious. I'm familiar with retopologizing, but only through hearsay. I've no real 3D knowledge. But what does "re-unwrapped" mean? And, very sorry for the stupider question, do these textures mean they actually have more of a hand in how three-dimensional shapes are perceived than not?

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To put very simply and to clarify, retopologizing is when you redo the actual mesh and "flow" of polygons on a 3D model. The shape stay mostly the same if you do it correctly, but it is a way to increase or reduce the amount of polygons on a model. For the purpose of the update and unifying all faces, I think every face has been retopologized.

Unwrapping is when you take the 3D model and "cut" it to be able to lay it flat for the purpose of texturing. You can think of a piece of clothing like a tshirt, it is a 3D shape you can wear, but if you cut along all the seams, you can lay it flat, because it was made from a flat piece of cloth. When you change the mesh (the 3D model) too drastically, you may be forced to redo the unwrapping and so also redo the textures, as the old ones are no longer compatible with the new UV maps.

How important textures are for the appearance of 3D object vary a lot, but very strangely, with the new light it actually matters more. The old rendering style had some very subtle but ever-present shadows and bounce light that emphasized the shape of the model:

https://i.gyazo.com/c8088d1b9203edc5...0baf089c5e.pnghttps://i.gyazo.com/5c2b7e458c6b4d7c...1b64ffeeb2.png

It seems that the new rendering style is not able to recreate this for whatever reason. 3D features are only emphasized when in direct light, but when in shadow, everything becomes flat and it relies 100% on the textures.

Thank you very much for the easy-to-understand explanation. I'm not sure why, but knowing a little bit more about what sort of things can cause these changes makes me feel a little more sane, lol.

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Originally Posted by Tethan

I hope this is not inappropriate to post, but I have compared the textures of old and new male viera face 3. I think it very clear where the changes are and I hope they can be addressed. I do not like the prominent chin and jowls look that the face never had this before, mouth and nose are shaded very differently.

I am a 3D artist, and I can see that face has been probably retopologized and certainly re-unwrapped, so I fully understand that features are not 100% analogous between the two textures, but it is still clear to see how changes were made.

Old <<<>>> New

snip

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This is really interesting, thank you for sharing it and for explaining some of the modeling process!

I'm increasingly disappointed that what was supposed to be an upscale of existing features apparently became a full redesign, especially when male viera are some of the newest models. It's super obvious when looking at the actual textures.

My poor, poor boy...what did they do to you.

https://i.imgur.com/mwIS4jp.png

<-Endwalker // Dawntrail ->

I'm a face 3 victim and I don't even know where to start with this. My sweet angel doesn't look like himself anymore. I gotta say, I love my characters with black eyes, but now that apparently all eyes no matter what color look totally devoid of any life, they make my boy look like Satan himself D: It's not cute anymore, it's just creepy.

Then there's the beautymark glitch that only a few people got. But I think this will be fixed. I HOPE it will be. Then the nose. It's like...not an upgrade but a downgrade. If they offered us new noses as options, fine. But please don't take from us what needed no fixing at all D: Same with the lips!

And the one thing that bothers me so much with this face...
THE CHIN. I don't know why but the chin seems so much more...prominent now and I hate it. :( Could be just me but...ugh...

I love face 3 as it is right now a lot. But the changes are...more than just weird to me. Male Vieras are so super ultra pretty right now and in the benchmark, they just...look weird. Female Viera too apparently, after all the screenshots I've seen so far.

I don't have a lot of hope for changes. They probably will only change the blatant mistakes, like the Female Elezen Mouth disaster. But let a girl dream :'(

honestly the only thing that irked me personally was the lips.. why are the corners of the mouth so.
i don't know how to describe it...
"open"?
like they don't look like lips anymore. this goes for like every other race in the game. the lips just feel so uncanny.

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Originally Posted by hot-chilis

honestly the only thing that irked me personally was the lips.. why are the corners of the mouth so.
i don't know how to describe it...
"open"?
like they don't look like lips anymore. this goes for like every other race in the game. the lips just feel so uncanny.

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Like a LOT of the new lips are giving me Peggy Hill vibes.
https://www.looper.com/img/gallery/k...1682643479.jpg

Very flat and extending all the way around the corners of the mouth

Fun fact, I showed my older sister who has no connection to this game or games whatsoever the screenshot comparing my characters old vs new looks. I asked her to tell me which of them looked better to her without telling her which was the new and which was the old one.

She said that the lips of the Benchmark screenshot were the first thing that she noticed. It reminded her of Insta-Makeup. x_x
Like the full, matte lipstick all the instagirls use lmao. She also said the 6.0 Screenshot looked way more natural and pleasing to her which is...interesting, since it should be the other way around.

So I guess we can all agree that the mouths/lips are the biggest problem right now and need an overhaul.

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Originally Posted by EBlaidd

https://i.imgur.com/qamXgve.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/4Ivu5Jm.png

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My main issue with viera are the eyes. They give me GTA Remastered vibes

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FEKmuw4X0AMEesq.jpg

I paid extra 2 subs when bunny bois first came out now I am considering unsub them after the changes :(

Not really a big fan that the new model just makes them look way softer...?

Before
https://i.imgur.com/9WMM8WZ.png

After
https://i.imgur.com/iwmvpTq.png

I understand that most people may prefer a softer look but I really think that we should have options that make them look a bit more fierce :(:(:(

And my other bunny boy just completely lost his brows which the vibe look completely lost

Before
https://i.imgur.com/kVSCBTP.png

After
https://i.imgur.com/U2XS8V8.png

Was very excited about the graphic changes but now I don't know anymore

Adding another voice for F Viera face 4.
The texture changes were a shock but I will get used to them.
But the shape of the face 4 lips? What happened? Did the artist hand slip or something? The lower lip is way too thick at the edges and it is simply not the same shape as before.

https://imgur.com/a/PutoeGB

Somewhat of a letdown I hope things can be fixed before launch.

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Originally Posted by Luca_

https://i.imgur.com/PD9QYCt.png

It feels dumb to be this upset over an update to a video game but man, I'm gutted. That's a completely different character.

.

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Originally Posted by Rhose

The update completely destroyed him..... Please I am begging you to fix this

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLIhmJ2W...jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLIhuQIW...name=4096x4096

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What happened to their playful smirks? Now they look like they want to cry

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Originally Posted by GodModule

What happened to their playful smirks? Now they look like they want to cry

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I mean... I would want to cry too.

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Originally Posted by SongOfTheWind

Isn’t it also the one Erenville is using? I wonder how he looks now

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I was thinking about this the whole time because when I saw the DT trailer long before the arrival of the benchmark I thought I was going insane. To me his facial features in the CG trailer looked so different. It was specifically the mouth that I noticed because it was missing face 3's signature definition.

Then I saw him again in 6.5.5 and felt even crazier because he had the normal face 3 mouth. Then I compared him to the trailer model and I know there are always differences but I really didn't recognise his mouth at all. (Compare it to Graha's signature male miqo mouth that you can recognise even in the trailer.)

And it just hit me. I think for the trailer they actually used the new face 3 model for Erenville because in my eyes the mouth really resembles the new version.

So I guess...that's how he's doing...

https://i.imgur.com/4qi0PZv.png

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Originally Posted by Loggos

snip

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CG trailers use different models from ingame, so that isn't it. I think he looks like a good representation of face 3 in CG quality in the trailer.

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Originally Posted by Miinu

Why isn't anybody talking about Veena's eye change? They changed so that Veena's and Rava's eyes are the same, even though one of Veena's clan differences is having larger pupils!

Benchmark
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLHlt2LW...png&name=small

In-game
https://i.imgur.com/JZEGyN7.png

This is huge nerf! Because just like miqoté's Keeper's of the moon clan, they still have huge pupils. Even hrothgars clan The Lost have their larger pupils. They have a reason to exist! Why did they take it away?? It has to be a mistake they just forgot or didn't think about.
It needs to be changed. This is a reason why I even picked Veena, alongside the lighter skin. It completely changes the characters look and vibe they have.

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I actually like Rava eyes better and think it looks better than the old veena eyes. The old veena eyes I could barely see their eye color. I was jealous male viera had those eyes on both rava and veena. I think it’s a good change.

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Originally Posted by Moonsprite

I actually like Rava eyes better and think it looks better than the old veena eyes. The old veena eyes I could barely see their eye color. I was jealous male viera had those eyes on both rava and veena. I think it’s a good change.

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We had it differently though. Not my picture but a great representation. They made old Rava pupil larger and old Veena smaller - identical as a result. They used to be quite different before. I personally liked the old Veena look.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...af2da46f39e30&

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Originally Posted by SongOfTheWind

We had it differently though. Not my picture but a great representation. They made old Rava pupil larger and old Veena smaller - identical as a result. They used to be quite different before. I personally liked the old Veena look.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...af2da46f39e30&

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Whatever the case, the deal was to preserve character feel. Instead they made changes at random. How is that acceptable?

My main is a male Veena, and the pupil change is one of several reasons I've considered race changing going into Dawntrail. Although I'm happy for the people who prefer the changes and are glad to see them, some of us were hoping to see our characters come through the update looking more similar than they do now. (RIP Face 3)

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Originally Posted by Tethan

Whatever the case, the deal was to preserve character feel. Instead they made changes at random. How is that acceptable?

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Ikr, apparently now the only definitive mviera veena feature is weaker eyebrows. Yay.
At least this thread is nice to hang around at.

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Originally Posted by Kouren

My main is a male Veena, and the pupil change is one of several reasons I've considered race changing going into Dawntrail. Although I'm happy for the people who prefer the changes and are glad to see them, some of us were hoping to see our characters come through the update looking more similar than they do now. (RIP Face 3)

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This may sound overly dramatic, but I waited to play male viera for 5 years (since Fran appeared in Stormblood) and I'd rather delete my character than race change. I can't believe after all this time I only got my bun for one expansion. It simply isn't fair.

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Originally Posted by Tethan

This may sound overly dramatic, but I waited to play male viera for 5 years (since Fran appeared in Stormblood) and I'd rather delete my character than race change. I can't believe after all this time I only got my bun for one expansion. It simply isn't fair.

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Though that's certainly an extreme step, nobody can discredit wanting to do what's right for you. My PoV is a little different in that I never expected to like mViera as much as I do, but now that we're here, I love my bun as he is and am also feeling resistant to change.

I hope we'll get some word from SE to indicate what we can expect one way or the other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tethan

This may sound overly dramatic, but I waited to play male viera for 5 years (since Fran appeared in Stormblood) and I'd rather delete my character than race change. I can't believe after all this time I only got my bun for one expansion. It simply isn't fair.

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I think I understand how you feel. My other character is male viera (face 3) and he is no less important than the one I used for profile picture here. But your many observations throughout these days, over the textures and whatnot - made me a little bit hopeful that things can be addressed still. So please don’t lose heart just yet.

I can't believe they'd take away defining racial features. My main is a female Keeper, and her fangs were nerfed, and my favorite alt is a Veena Viera. Now his eyes are the same as Rava. Why are they going back on lore? It's not even an opinion, like on lip shape, they're removing racial features. Why...?

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Originally Posted by Moonsprite

I actually like Rava eyes better and think it looks better than the old veena eyes. The old veena eyes I could barely see their eye color. I was jealous male viera had those eyes on both rava and veena. I think it’s a good change.

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Yeah, but then there's people like me who chose Veena because of the bigger pupils. If I wanted Rava eyes I would have gone Rava.

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Originally Posted by Loggos

I was thinking about this the whole time because when I saw the DT trailer long before the arrival of the benchmark I thought I was going insane. To me his facial features in the CG trailer looked so different. It was specifically the mouth that I noticed because it was missing face 3's signature definition.

Then I saw him again in 6.5.5 and felt even crazier because he had the normal face 3 mouth. Then I compared him to the trailer model and I know there are always differences but I really didn't recognise his mouth at all. (Compare it to Graha's signature male miqo mouth that you can recognise even in the trailer.)

And it just hit me. I think for the trailer they actually used the new face 3 model for Erenville because in my eyes the mouth really resembles the new version.

So I guess...that's how he's doing...

https://i.imgur.com/4qi0PZv.png

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Late--but if it helps--this is just because the CGI models are a different medium, created, shot, animated and presented in a different way. In fact, they generally don't have the most up-to-date models, because the animated trailers need to be worked on very early.

They even released a head-shot of his CGI model in a JP magazine, so you can view it more head-on:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGEgARFa...pg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGEgARKb...pg&name=medium
I actually feel that he is very faithful to the impression of the current game model. Even his bunny nose is still there, but it's subtle, like the current iteration of the in-game face. Admittedly harder to see due to the type of lighting these trailers use. To be honest, seeing how perfectly they emphasized his face in the magazine makes me feel stronger that these new changes aren't exactly intended...

Fun fact that I think is still funny to this day: If you go back and watch the Heavensward trailer, you can see that all the dragons the Ishgardian Dragoons & Meteor are fighting are actually just Hraesvelgr painted red, because they didn't have any other significant dragon models to work with at the time.

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Originally Posted by MikatoKai

Yeah, but then there's people like me who chose Veena because of the bigger pupils. If I wanted Rava eyes I would have gone Rava.

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I said I like them better. I chose veena at the time because of skin color/tone and I tolerated the eyes. I disliked the no discernible eye color of the veena before. All Veena eyes from a short distance away were the same to me. It doesn’t mean my opinion is better or worse than yours. I’m not aggressively advocating for the change, I am just voicing my opinion. I also dislike Veena’s lack of eyebrows compared to Rava. If Rava had some more skin tones (less orange,red) I would have played them instead just for the eyes and eyebrows. Sun and moon miqo’te have a lot more varied skin tones so choosing between eyes and fangs is more meaningful instead of tolerating things like eyes and eyebrows with Viera. I really don’t understand why eyebrows have to be different either.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...e157d88910b3e&https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...464498083fe18&
current > benchmark. All I see is everything looks worse, I don't see any improvements at all here.
- same exact settings in game
- eye light is gone, makes him look dead, really hope that fix that because it makes a HUGE difference
- too dark shadow on top of eye, cannot see eyelashes at all, too much shadow at the top of eye makes every character look dead/mad, this is not what people want...
- skin looks flat/dead??? Looks far better in the current.
- lips have no shine at all, color is wrong
- I use tattoo and face paint both around the eyes, it looks totally messed up now. Before it looked amazing and blended really well.

I must admit that althought I've come to accept the changes, it deeply hurts me that Veena face 3 has lost some of its doll features. I mainly picked this face because it reminded me of Blythe dolls, which I adore and collect. Veena face 3 was the perfect fit for the look I was going for and now it is mostly gone. The eyeliner is too heavy, the pupils are too small, the lips are basically lines, the sparkless eyes make them look souless, and if you have a light haired veena, say goodbye to your eyebrows because those will be non-existent.

https://imgur.com/a/qdOaOR3

I still have some hope they will revert these changes to veena. A benchmark like this should have been released sooner, not two months before release.

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Originally Posted by GodModule

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FEKmuw4X0AMEesq.jpg

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Wut is this, and i thought they could not make her look worse
https://media1.giphy.com/media/kHg7M...EaRE/giphy.gif