Get rid of SAM Limit break gimmick already (FL)

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

https://youtu.be/Ncy6Mgv5K14

good gods, did not know this video existed but its a interesting find.

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Yep saw this one, real pathetic crap.
How to render an already skeleton PvP completely meaningless.

SE is also to blame for not monitoring that at all.

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Originally Posted by True-to-Caesar

How do you counter a WHM aoe stun/beam ? You don’t you take it.

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1) Guard counters it. You're going to tell me that you can't constantly read people's minds and know exactly when they're going to use it, indeed, but guard is still a counter and having some enemies guarded under your beam will mean you're wasting it at least on them. It generates some constraints to work around.=, like for a lot of skills.

2) Why would you need to counter it if it does nothing and gets wasted? If it hits everybody, stuns everybody, and nothing follows, then you essentially wasted the beam. However, if it hits everybody, some of them were low HP and/or purify on CD, and they die as a result (either from the beam damage or somebody finishing them off), then this is called being punished for overextension and/or being outplayed.

It's like asking how do you counter being hit by somebody in overwatch or whatever. Just don't be a target when you don't have the means to protect yourself. That's your counter.

I feel like some people just want a big pve telegraph like in storymodes before the cast or something at times...

I can understand having a problem with Zantetsuken for various reasons, but with Purgation? What?

In other games, when someone has an ult or full meter, their lifebar or something glows. I think just having maybe the name or reticle on the target glow or on fire when the target has LB would be good for all forms of PvP. Nothing to create visual noise; just subtle. Think purify could also have a persistent graphic, rather than having the eyes scan the buff bar. For all the flaws of Heroes of the Storm, I liked how, when someone cannot be hit with CC, their name becomes "UNSTOPPABLE" momentarily.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

https://youtu.be/Ncy6Mgv5K14

good gods, did not know this video existed but its a interesting find.

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Thats pretty crazy, but whats even more wild is what I got recommended.

https://youtu.be/2lLuU-zKecs

For context: The uploader is stuck in gold and warns about a cheating 3rd party tool in JP that lets you see who has guard, who has limit break, zooms outt the camera, and even whose targeting you. It also has a toggle to make the limit breaks automatically happen when a condition is fulfilled, like ninja and HP threshold for its limit break. They also mention they are not the user of this tool.

Also their channel has @ffxivsukuitai. Which sukuitai basically means save, so saveffxiv.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

In other games, when someone has an ult or full meter, their lifebar or something glows. I think just having maybe the name or reticle on the target glow or on fire when the target has LB would be good for all forms of PvP. Nothing to create visual noise; just subtle. Think purify could also have a persistent graphic, rather than having the eyes scan the buff bar. For all the flaws of Heroes of the Storm, I liked how, when someone cannot be hit with CC, their name becomes "UNSTOPPABLE" momentarily.

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In crystalline conflict you can see everyone's LB progress in the party lists. Not sure how they would go about it in FL's and honestly I don't really think it matters much because, well, its FL lol.

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Originally Posted by Valence

1) Guard counters it. You're going to tell me that you can't constantly read people's minds and know exactly when they're going to use it, indeed, but guard is still a counter and having some enemies guarded under your beam will mean you're wasting it at least on them. It generates some constraints to work around.=, like for a lot of skills.

2) Why would you need to counter it if it does nothing and gets wasted? If it hits everybody, stuns everybody, and nothing follows, then you essentially wasted the beam. However, if it hits everybody, some of them were low HP and/or purify on CD, and they die as a result (either from the beam damage or somebody finishing them off), then this is called being punished for overextension and/or being outplayed.

It's like asking how do you counter being hit by somebody in overwatch or whatever. Just don't be a target when you don't have the means to protect yourself. That's your counter.

I feel like some people just want a big pve telegraph like in storymodes before the cast or something at times...

I can understand having a problem with Zantetsuken for various reasons, but with Purgation? What?

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You get cc and get the beam in the face, there’s no telegraph before the LB is actually used.

What I’m talking about here is not necessarily how OP a LB is, it’s how many cannot be avoided or countered at all.

Look here at 0:46

https://youtu.be/dsZVBcoB1Zs

Can you genuinely in good faith say the opponent has time to see anything coming and prepare for it ?
Of course not, it’s instant. That’s why you don’t « counter » after the damage is done. You counter to prevent it from happening or minimizing it as much as possible.

To me, when a player can’t do crap but take damage no matter what, it’s just bad PvP (and again a reason why MMOs and some mobas suck at it). Because you as a player ( your decision making speed, reaction time) is not much of a factor compared to team comp, gear in some games, jobs/classes and how strong they are, not you.

Soulsgames PvP have telegraphs, slashers games too, short but it’s there and yet they’re rewarding when you react properly to them. Especially with baits. Because that’s what makes the difference between a beginner and someone who knows how to play.

In current FFXIV PvP where you have no more than 5-7 active skills, with much less ways to react and fight back, would that be such an issue ? Because your attention can already be directed more to what is actually happening.

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Originally Posted by True-to-Caesar

You get cc and get the beam in the face, there’s no telegraph before the LB is actually used.

What I’m talking about here is not necessarily how OP a LB is, it’s how many cannot be avoided or countered at all.

Look here at 0:46

https://youtu.be/dsZVBcoB1Zs

Can you genuinely in good faith say the opponent has time to see anything coming and prepare for it ?
Of course not, it’s instant. That’s why you don’t « c.ounter » after the damage is done. You counter to prevent it from happening or minimizing it as much as possible.

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It really depends on a large amount of factors Factors depending on your teammates and the enemy WHM's teammates and what they do. But If the assumption is that the WHM just engages a fight by just doing this, odds are you can recover after the burst or even guard/purify during Purgation to get a heal off before Miracle. And then you have your job's kit with how you can counter the effect with your own defensives and CC effects to counter the effect. If you assume that you can just do this to get someone from full to zero, you won't be able to. As someone who has played WHM in Diamond/Crystal I can say that this effect is more of a "pub stomp" combo, where it can easily destroy lower skilled players but anyone with experience can just recognize this combo and survive it. This applies to every job, since there is common behaviors that each job does to do big bursts and you can recognize them, even if some are less telegraphed than others.

also forgot to mention, in CC you can see both your team and the enemy team's CD on their Limit Breaks as well so there is another way to predict when people will try to do their bursts.

When did guard stop working against samurai LB?

I have guard up for 2-3 seconds and I still get 1 shot (happened like 3x in past month). As a bard i can't just stop my cast shot from casting by moving and my aoe does what it wants but I hold that.

Since 6.1 dropped it has always hit through guard so long as you have the debuff from hitting them.

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Originally Posted by ElaintheShy

When did guard stop working against samurai LB?

I have guard up for 2-3 seconds and I still get 1 shot (happened like 3x in past month). As a bard i can't just stop my cast shot from casting by moving and my aoe does what it wants but I hold that.

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Guard has never worked against SAM LB. If you want to play MCH/BRD against a SAM you have to have a keybind that cancels your cast or the SAM can always just chiten half way into your cast and kill you 100% of the time unless you can quickly bind them and then get behind a wall for couple of seconds :p

I don't think there is any meaning to discuss this issue further.
As long as you are the type that don't pay attention to your surrounding; the SAM LB will kill you; and people with better situation awareness will never understand why people is having trouble with SAM LB.
It is just pointless of ranting until patch 7.1 as next big major PvP tune up.

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Originally Posted by ElaintheShy

When did guard stop working against samurai LB?

I have guard up for 2-3 seconds and I still get 1 shot (happened like 3x in past month). As a bard i can't just stop my cast shot from casting by moving and my aoe does what it wants but I hold that.

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I specifically said guard when referring to the WHM burst linked in the earlier post. For SAM LB specifically you just want to recognize if their LB is ready and if they use Chiten, which is more proactive than reactive but it is doable.

"recognize if their LB is ready"
In frontline? Would you care to elaborate.
https://i.imgur.com/jz6Dmxo.gif

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

"recognize if their LB is ready"
In frontline? Would you care to elaborate.
https://i.imgur.com/jz6Dmxo.gif

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use your eyes

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Originally Posted by ed3891

use your eyes

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The point is this is a Frontline thread, and you cannot see an enemy gauge inside of Frontline without cheating but thank you for not adding anything of any worth.

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Originally Posted by ed3891

use your eyes

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Only if you start to use your brain before posting first.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

"recognize if their LB is ready"
In frontline? Would you care to elaborate.
https://i.imgur.com/jz6Dmxo.gif

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I kinda did got off topic and started referring to CC when a guy posted the WHM burst video meant for CC. For FL, I still think you can recognize when a SAM is going to do their LB with just seeing their buffs and just recognizing the behavior of someone trying to set up an LB. It's a lot harder in that environment though, and it's still very clear it was never designed for FL at all.

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Originally Posted by ed3891

use your eyes

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this guy.... lol

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

The point is this is a Frontline thread, and you cannot see an enemy gauge inside of Frontline without cheating but thank you for not adding anything of any worth.

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The ability to observe and situation awareness is not something can pass from one to another through use of words.
This is why I said there is no point of continue this discussion.
People like you do not understand how to observe SAM's behavior pattern to determine whether this SAM has LB ready or not.
People that has ability to tell by observation can't not hold your hand and walk you through every scenario.

If you still thinks that SAM has issue but you just not realized that you are just part of loud minority.
I can ensure you, your only resolution is to adopt and learn to anticipate because this LB is working as intended until next major PvP tuneup in which is 7.1

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

The ability to observe and situation awareness is not something can pass from one to another through use of words.
This is why I said there is no point of continue this discussion.
People like you do not understand how to observe SAM's behavior pattern to determine whether this SAM has LB ready or not.
People that has ability to tell by observation can't not hold your hand and walk you through every scenario.

If you still thinks that SAM has issue but you just not realized that you are just part of loud minority.
I can ensure you, your only resolution is to adopt and learn to anticipate because this LB is working as intended until next major PvP tuneup in which is 7.1

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no chief, you are the minority.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

no chief, you are the minority.

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Yeah?
Are you saying SE is going to nerf/change/revert Samurai LB next patch?
It is all because you think you are majority?
If you are majority, SE definitely should change this.
However, it is weird, because last night i check Japanese forum current trend is to put Ninja on the chopping block

Please just keep me on your ignored list
Most of your posts are just ranting with no valuable interesting points to read

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Yeah?
Are you saying SE is going to nerf/change/revert Samurai LB next patch?
It is all because you think you are majority?
If you are majority, SE definitely should change this.
However, it is weird, because last night i check Japanese forum current trend is to put Ninja on the chopping block

Please just keep me on your ignored list
Most of your posts are just ranting with no valuable interesting points to read

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lmao dude, the other people in this thread would disagree with you.
Keep being in the loud minority and dismiss others for having a different opinion by saying "They're bad"
You people are a poison to this community.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

lmao dude, the other people in this thread would disagree with you.
Keep being in the loud minority and dismiss others for having a different opinion by saying "They're bad"
You people are a poison to this community.

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Which part of my statement you do not understand?
There is no point to continue this discussion.

However, different than you.
If I go into Seal Rock and Onsal Hakir now, i will use a macro to warn my teammates on Samurai that has LB ready.
It is more effective than your whinning on NA PvP forum that forum moderator abandoned because of type of posters like you
oh I forgot, you don't have that ability so all you can do is ranting, my apology.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

im a poison to the community, i have nothing of value to say.

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Then close the sewer hole :)

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

Then close the sewer hole :)

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The one opened by you that stinky here?
I will pass
Oh, I am expecting to see next patch note that Samurai is getting new LB if you strongly said you are MAJORITY

Yeah, bring up that altering other people's quote that even 5 years old wont use
The age is now questionable.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I got nothing to say

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Then why are you speaking?
Go back to WoW where you belong.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

I demand to speak to a manager of SE.

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Madam, YoshiP is not available
Do you need a tissue?

not even gonna bother reading what you have to say anymore lol go back to WoW dude.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

no chief, you are the minority.

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The "majority" tend to be incredibly mid at pvp in any game, so your input is a moot point.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

not even gonna bother reading what you have to say anymore lol go back to WoW dude.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Please just keep me on your ignored list
Most of your posts are just ranting with no valuable interesting points to read

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Read the above
Yup, definitely fit the description.
Always through a temper when on the losing side of the argument
If this is real world, he is definitely turn this into racial insult

Both you and ransu, go back to WoW lol both of you are the same.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

lmao dude, the other people in this thread would disagree with you.
Keep being in the loud minority and dismiss others for having a different opinion by saying "They're bad"

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The statement of being unable to recognize when an LB is about to be used doesn't refer to a player being bad, just lower skilled which is a huge difference. There are mechanics that are very easy to abuse against lower skilled players that tend to fall off the higher in skill level you go. I'd compare something like this to MNKs on Shatter/Secure who just camp the cliffs to push people off. Yes, it's very abusable when you catch someone off guard or if they can't tell of an effective way to counter the mechanic, but it can be countered by people who are aware of the situation and know how to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

The statement of being unable to recognize when an LB is about to be used doesn't refer to a player being bad, just lower skilled which is a huge difference. There are mechanics that are very easy to abuse against lower skilled players that tend to fall off the higher in skill level you go. I'd compare something like this to MNKs on Shatter/Secure who just camp the cliffs to push people off. Yes, it's very abusable when you catch someone off guard or if they can't tell of an effective way to counter the mechanic, but it can be countered by people who are aware of the situation and know how to deal with it.

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its not what you say its how you say it, those two are the biggest offenders of this. but yeah you CAN work around it, it IS possible but the fact that aoes trigger it and the fact its a instant kill no matter what (unless you have a shield like ninja has) it needs to change, if it was changed to be more like ninjas LB id be ok with it.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

its not what you say its how you say it, those two are the biggest offenders of this. but yeah you CAN work around it, it IS possible but the fact that aoes trigger it and the fact its a instant kill no matter what (unless you have a shield like ninja has) it needs to change, if it was changed to be more like ninjas LB id be ok with it.

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I don't know how often it was brought up in this post, but I honestly think NIN has a much worse and abusable LB than SAM. Being able to execute anyone in range that has 1 hp less than half health, and being able to chain it especially when you are making a good push with your team is insane. SAM can technically get collateral by killing multiple people, but with how often I play I have only seen at most 3 kills with, and very rarely. Also having to use another cooldown in order to actually debuff a player to be able to get the instant kill is very rough, especially when that CD is your main defensive outside of Guard. Also SAM having a longer CD on their LB with 120s vs the 90s on NIN is very noticeable over the course of a long game. You could argue that you can make both of these LBs only execute at a lower health percentage, but at that point it bleeds more into a CC discussion if we are talking more about ability balance(which this technically already is one but yeah).

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

Both you and ransu, go back to WoW lol both of you are the same.

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I don't play WoW.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

its not what you say its how you say it, those two are the biggest offenders of this. but yeah you CAN work around it, it IS possible but the fact that aoes trigger it and the fact its a instant kill no matter what (unless you have a shield like ninja has) it needs to change, if it was changed to be more like ninjas LB id be ok with it.

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And this is why no one takes you seriously. This would literally be a massive buff to SAM's LB.

Oh boy…..Samurai with Ninja LB ….
I am actually speechless….
/facepalm

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

I don't know how often it was brought up in this post, but I honestly think NIN has a much worse and abusable LB than SAM. Being able to execute anyone in range that has 1 hp less than half health, and being able to chain it especially when you are making a good push with your team is insane. SAM can technically get collateral by killing multiple people, but with how often I play I have only seen at most 3 kills with, and very rarely. Also having to use another cooldown in order to actually debuff a player to be able to get the instant kill is very rough, especially when that CD is your main defensive outside of Guard. Also SAM having a longer CD on their LB with 120s vs the 90s on NIN is very noticeable over the course of a long game. You could argue that you can make both of these LBs only execute at a lower health percentage, but at that point it bleeds more into a CC discussion if we are talking more about ability balance(which this technically already is one but yeah).

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not reading all that, already know how the jobs work in pvp and ANYTHING is better then just having samurai being able to press the instant win bs button, ninja still has to somewhat work for their kills.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

People like you do not understand how to observe SAM's behavior pattern to determine whether this SAM has LB ready or not.
People that has ability to tell by observation can't not hold your hand and walk you through every scenario.

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Do not recite the deep magicks to me Rabbit, I was there when they were beta tested!

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

I don't know how often it was brought up in this post, but I honestly think NIN has a much worse and abusable LB than SAM. Being able to execute anyone in range that has 1 hp less than half health, and being able to chain it especially when you are making a good push with your team is insane.

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I disagree. NIN's LB in Frontlines is only "abusable" in a sense that a savvy NIN can cut the effort of killing any player, regardless of Battle High level, in half. Just one. Because the NIN's LB puts them on top of the target, if the target is within/next to their team, the NIN's immediate priority is to get out (not hard, due to FL's 60% melee privileges and having 2 shields, a teleport and Guard). If any team lets an enemy NIN chain their LB, especially with the now nerfed decreasing follow-up timer per kill, they're either inattentive idiots, haven't put Recuperate on their hotbar, or were basically dead anyway during a concentrated push if they were so out of MP for even just 1 Recuperate.

If you ever let yourself sit at under 50% HP when you have the MP to Recuperate in a skirmish in Frontlines, especially when there are enemy NINs involved, that free kill rebound for the NIN is entirely on you for gross negligence. Recuperating at or near 50% HP should be as reflexive as a healer popping Swiftcast when somebody dies. If the NIN somehow manages to chain their LB during a "push," the team being pushed was dead meat at that point and the NIN was just sniping kills from under their teammates. That doesn't make it abusable, that makes it a clean-up tool.

I've seen SAMs go from no battle high to instantly BH2-3 in one LB. Yes, its because they nailed a mosh pit of inattentive/reckless casual fodder players (which FL never lacks in abundance), but for a NIN to do the same thing requires a steamroll by your entire team; at which point somebody else would have killed the targets anyway, the NIN just expedited the process.