The way level correction affects magic. All enfeebling focus would do is put the job at a disadvantage...again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki
Sword & magic can work, but it needs to be adapted to work in an MMO instead of trying to use a carbon copy of how RDM was in FFI. XI's was pretty much a failure in and of itself, and is something I do not wish to see repeated.
Below are two threadas that went into detail on that topic. I should probably bump them too.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ack-line-class
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...esign-Red-Mage!
Letter from the Producer, XXVIII (05/28/2012)
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05-30-2012, 05:24 PMDuelle
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05-30-2012, 06:38 PMAsiaine*gasp*Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
RDM was amazing, brilliant, wonderful, fun. The problem was not with the class, but the people who just wanted it to stand in the back and refresh.
To call it a failure is a bit of an over-statement. TO say it could be made needed for more than just refresh/healing in a party situation would be fair. But not failure. -
05-30-2012, 06:48 PMZenakuRDM did not do great dmg with there swords but in ffxiv they could make the combo system work like WS,Spell,WS and give them a pretty high DPS with WS and spell but still be a good bufferQuote:
Originally Posted by Asiaine
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05-30-2012, 07:20 PMAsiaine*GASP*Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenaku
RDM/NIN with En-Thunder and Joyeuse + Sword (not even saying Kraken Club here).
Solo-Skill Chain + Magic Burst o.o!
Plus..plus.. Pulling with bow ^^b -
05-30-2012, 07:24 PMZenakuya that was all good but not everyone was skill and no one want them to dps in battle so that was all pointless in ffxiv they could make it from day 1 a great dps and you have to use them in battle WS->Spell->WS which make them have to fight face to face and not be in the background like rdm in ffxi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaine
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05-30-2012, 08:13 PMSkies
Hrm... Main Class, Gladiator, sub-classes Conjurer and Thaumaturge.
First Job Ability is a 'stance' akin to the monk's fists, Flare Sword or something that increases damage dealt either based on INT or some other factor but moves the overall damage closer to "DD" than "Tank". The other four Job Abilities are Spells, one to combo off of Flat Blade, another to combo off of Rage of Halone. Hrm... -
05-31-2012, 12:10 AMDuelleThe fact the job itself allowed for that kind of pigeonholing by design is why the job failed. You don't create a generalist, then give them buff abilities while leaving their DPS intact. All that does is invite groups to use that job solely as a buff-whore instead of a hybrid. That's largely why I want a melee class as the base for RDM; that way we don't run into that sort of situation again because the meat of the abilities will be melee abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaine
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05-31-2012, 12:46 AMElexiaHe's just one of the people that consider anything XI related a failure, you'll learn this very quick about people who play FFXIV. RDM was an amazing job, it was the only job for the good majority of XI's peak that can solo lesser NMs and a few of the gods. Best part is, for one to complain about people wanting a 'carbon copy', it was a carbon copy of older iterations of the job to begin with since while RDM could use a dagger/sword in older games, it's main power came from spell casting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaine
No job that can solo gods failed, especially back in 2004-2006 era.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
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05-31-2012, 01:00 AMKoujiGekiI guess soloing Gods makes it a failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
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05-31-2012, 01:00 AMDuelleRight, because that had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that AI pathing was crap and bind/gravity were OP--oh wait, it did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
Anywhere else AI pathing would have been fixed and Bind and Gravity would have seen complete redesigns or outright nerfs. Not everyone who played RDM cared about soloing gods, and I for one wanted it nerfed so that people like you wouldn't bring it up any time we asked for melee fixes and buffs. This goes back to my annoyance at Tanaka & Co. being hands-off when it came to a lot of things in XI.
None of which will ever justify our being reduced to buff-botting in the content that mattered. Sword & Magic being reduced to "cure refresh haste" cycling was downright insulting.
A job doing everything but what it was intended to do is a failure. A job that never lived up to concept between player dynamics, party dynamics and design of endgame is a failure. A job that was given a band-aid niche instead of a real set of fixes is a failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by KoujiGeki
This would have been no different than Reckoning Bomb in WoW being left in-game (instead of nerfed to non-existance) and the developers using it as an excuse for never buffing Paladin melee. It was asinine then and still is asinine now.
PS: Another really good RDM suggestion, from the design thread, too! -
05-31-2012, 01:15 PMAsiaineThen, by this definition:Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
DRG was a failure -- they just sat around Jueno all day hoping for a party.
WAR was a failure -- they just sat next to the DRG in Jueno all day hoping for a party.
MNK was a failure -- they were only good in fast skeleton rush parties.
SMN was a failure -- they were wanted when there was no WHM around to heal the party.
RNG was a failure -- ammo was so expensive, RNG just used daggers all the time
NIN was a failure -- shuriken was so expensive they never used it, and just went as a NIN/WAR *TANK* O.o!
SAM was a failure -- they gave the mobs so much TP that it ended up hurting the party more!
WHM was okey -- they healed and that was all they were expected to do.
I think perhaps your definition of 'failure' needs to be adjusted. Every job had a positive and negative side. Every job was perceived differently in party, solo and NM situations. Every job was perceived differently by different people.
As for your argument of not casting spells: Were you not Magic Bursting? You KNOW you can poke the mob with your sword at the beginning of the fight to get enough TP to help a skill chain so you can then MB on the skill chain (all whilst maintaining a refresh and cure cycle). -
05-31-2012, 01:20 PMZenakuthe only thing that fail was THF and DRK and BLM everything else want allow in party i should know i was a monk and a SAM and did a little of DRGQuote:
Originally Posted by Asiaine
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05-31-2012, 01:52 PMDuelleIndeed. Bad PR, penta-nerf and the fact their wyvern (a nice portion of their damage since it ignored mob defense entirely) was squishy even by low armor standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaine
Not really. Especially considering pre-2-hander update it was one of THE jobs to have in a merit party.Quote:
WAR was a failure -- they just sat next to the DRG in Jueno all day hoping for a party.
False. MNK happened to have highest possible DPS. Hence the whole King of DPS title.Quote:
MNK was a failure -- they were only good in fast skeleton rush parties.
Very much so. Poor design, lack of attention by the developers and the unexplainable fear Tanaka & Co. had for pet classes.Quote:
SMN was a failure -- they were wanted when there was no WHM around to heal the party.
Rarity-based economy, bad design, not to mention the devs' unwillingness to actually test the ranged attack nerf before implementing it.Quote:
RNG was a failure -- ammo was so expensive, RNG just used daggers all the time
Indeed. Rarity-based economy, not to mention innaction by the developers that allowed one spell to somehow alter encounter design and overall survivability for the rest of the game's life.Quote:
NIN was a failure -- shuriken was so expensive they never used it, and just went as a NIN/WAR *TANK* O.o!
Your attempts at trolling hurt the party more than SAM's 5 or 6-hit builds.Quote:
SAM was a failure -- they gave the mobs so much TP that it ended up hurting the party more!
Don't get me started on what happened to WHM once TP Burn became the way everyone barring BLMs (who had to solo their levels) chose to level.Quote:
WHM was okay -- they healed and that was all they were expected to do.
Maybe you forgot, but post-TAU no one cared about skillchains, which if anything is testimony to the fact that they were a pain in the first place. The second they no longer generated notable results they were tossed aside along with magic bursts, just like so much tissue paper. Red Mage was used as cure-bitch because RDM + BRD could keep a party of four DD/nin up and running. Before that it was refresh, haste and staff-*twitch*-swapping and praying slow and para would land on the IT+++ mob (which, by the way, my B in sword skill caused me to have trouble actually hitting) the geniuses in the party decided to go after.Quote:
As for your argument of not casting spells: Were you not Magic Bursting? You KNOW you can poke the mob with your sword at the beginning of the fight to get enough TP to help a skill chain so you can then MB on the skill chain (all whilst maintaining a refresh and cure cycle).