Primal drop system, still no changes?!

I still don't like drop rates in Primal Fights @ all, its so low though i got an Ifrit's Blade ( My GLD Lv.1) & 2 totems after 15 wins lol...

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Originally Posted by Kona4me

I still don't like drop rates in Primal Fights @ all, its so low though i got an Ifrit's Blade ( My GLD Lv.1) & 2 totems after 15 wins lol...

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My first weapon was Ifrits Blade, and yes my PLD was lvl 1 at the time. I averaed 1 weapon + 1 toem every 10 kills or so. I got all weapons in less than 100 wins, so i don't think it's all that bad.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

But it is. Imagine if everyone who went to the Casino won. Or imagine if everyone who played the lottery got a share of the prize. Or imagine if everyone who played the stock market made lots of money. Its really..well ridiculous. Not everyone would be opposed to a life like that, but frankly, I am. Equal reward for equal work takes all the mystery, fun, excitement, and "chance" out of everything. You automatically know what you're going to get based on how hard you work. No thanks, sounds terrible. And what about ppl who can't put in equal work in FFXIV because they have lives. Should they automatically be inferior, despite the fact that they pay the same amounty of money? I would say no, but your little theory would say otherwise. Luck is the "great equalizer" in the world...it has no biases and levels the playing field.

Your logic makes it sound like that everyone who goes home to study for a couple hours should get an A, or every aspiring singer who practices for hours should become a star, etc etc. I applaud your egalitarianism but thats just silliness. Being a star would have no value if everyone could do it with enough work. Making it in the stock market would have no value if everyone did it either. Just like winning a championship is rather pointless if every team that tries just as hard wins too. Of course it robs things of its value. Would a diamond be as valuable if everyone and their mother could get their hands on one? How much is a rock worth? Practically nothing..because they were everywhere and easily obtained by anyone.



I have no problem with the 5/10 totem thing, I was debating a suggestion made by someone else that is not even implemented in the game. And I'll QQ about QQ'rs, as you will QQ about QQ about QQ'rs. But that wasnt even the bulk of the post so I fail to see where you get that impression, unless voicing an opinion = QQ these days.

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Lol...okay there we have the reason..."America"...this has nothing to do with america...this isn't RL...

Winning at the casino, or the lottery is a luck based system and everybody knows that when he's doing it. They ENJOY the luck factor of it, while in a game that is meant to entertain us, a luck based system is just Bullshit. If everyone is investing the same time, then everyone should get the same rewards out of it. One person who gets 7/7 in 30 kills is not comparing to another who took 300 fights to get 7/7.

There is no MMORPG out there these days that doesn't have a "fixed" drop after the kill. There might be a pool of drops where one item drops less often then another, but you're guaranteed a drop, no matter what. That's how it supposed to be. I don't mind them adding an item to that loot pool that only got a chance of 0,1% chance to drop...but everyone(not necessarilly each single person, but the group as a whole) should get rewarded by a guaranteed drop. Sure we don't need 100% Totems or 100% weapons for each person. But 1 Weapon drop per kill is absolute fine(distributed through the Loot list). Considering the same group of people will kill Ifrit every time it would take 56 kills to get each one of the groups members 7/7. THIS loot system would also give duplicates at some point that everyone the group already got, so they would drop to nirvana, but that's fine. At that point it's just waiting for the right weapon to drop, not hoping for RNG that any weapon at all drops.

BTW: I'm european myself (I assume you are too) and my experience with other europeans is...they are so full of themselves and usually full of shit...

PS: My first Ifrit weapon was PUG fists...my first Moogle weapon was....PUG fists...my PUG has been 38 at that time...

10% Sound high enough? still It's all depend on your luck to get the one you want .

Why bother choose one just get all DoW/DoM to 50 and you can use all ?

Why bother change the drop rate current system is good enough , just change the loot system problem solve .

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Originally Posted by DoubleEcho

No, I'm sorry, it's not. It's really not.

Out of 250 fights you got 4 weapons. There are people that have fought Ifrit 120 times and gotten nothing, or at best a couple totems. What you did was got lucky. Would you have those same people fight Ifrit another 120 times just to get the last few totems to get a weapon? That way they can fight him 240 times and get 1 weapon. Brilliant!

Increase the drop rate slightly for weapons. Increase the drop rate further for totems and keep the totem requirement at 10. The current system does not benefit new players, because once someone has fought Ifrit (or in the future other Primals) hundreds of times, they're not going to want to help someone another hundred times just to get the 1 or 2 weapons they want.

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Sorry for going offtopic here but who drew your sig? O:!

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

Christ, I'm 2/27 on just BEATING Ifrit, much less getting a primal weapon, even moreso less than getting the two weapons I need.

I need to find a static.

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Looking at your classes on the lodestone first off I would finish up your Archer to 50 and complete the Bard once you got that just start a party with 2 WHM, 1 GLA, 1 BRD (YOU), 3 BLM and when shouting try to get experienced people + some hate doing long runs so first try short runs like 3-4 times per run and at end of the run if you still want to continue try check with the party and rotate people if they need to leave.

After each battle make sure to talk to the party and find out what can be done better + if you are going to be the party leader and you know how the battle works you can try to point out to that individual what he/she should try to see if it will improve the run with less death, etc. (Try to be polite)

Like I said first get archer to 50 and get BRD but afterwards (can do PGL but if you want smoother/faster runs do this...)

Did 3 runs last night with open invites and on the party recruit system.
1. Leave purpose and location at default.
2. Set up the party - make sure to put the class/jobs you need and set it to 50-50 so you don't get someone lower
3. In the comment section type copy/paste this.

真イフやります、経験のある方で参加したい方いましたら参加してください。　__(time)__ やります
Doing Ifrit __(time)__'s if you are experienced and want to join, please join.

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Now just shout same thing but add this at the end.
PT募集の内容読んでからお願いします、Please check class details on party search and join.

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At end of the comment if you're scared it's all going to be JP you can also add this.
私は日本語話せませんがよろしければどうぞ
I can't speak Japanese but if you would like please join.

That way they don't get surprised you got Japanese on there but can't actually speak.

Just trying to help out ^_^


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BTW reps... would be nice if you guys made tutorial on how to use that party recruit system, staff made the page for the crappy player search but nothing for this one.
This recruit system is actually really useful since it can be search from any place and doesn't restrict the players to being in Ul'dah to listen to shouts.

Also would be nice if they can fix the feature so for those searching for parties say while they are crafting with under 50 jobs but they have lv50 class of the job they want to join in for the search feature to use that lv50 class/jobs level instead of going by the current class/job you are in. Most people are crafting doing other stuff rather than standing doing nothing with their already capped lv50 class/job. (if you don't set the level 50-50 on the recruit it wont do this but same time for the person recruiting he/she may get someone under 50 and causes issued)

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Originally Posted by Matsume

My first weapon was Ifrits Blade, and yes my PLD was lvl 1 at the time. I averaed 1 weapon + 1 toem every 10 kills or so. I got all weapons in less than 100 wins, so i don't think it's all that bad.

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And would you find it bad if you had 2 weapons (the mage ones) after 230 kills ?

Ifrit is not a solo event, its a group effort, that means that you need 7 other people to enter and win, and each entry requires inferno tapers and then there's always the chance that your PT will suck, or someone dies due to lag or your tank getting screwed over by a DD that brought cracks to him etc etc.

Taking that in mind, I think 10 wins qualifies you to get a weapon, lets say totems are 100%, wheres the problem in that?

Lets spice it up a bit and make trading the now 100% totem to the NPC results in a random weapon, you got claws first but your PUG is 12? oh well... but with the direction the game is taking where the majority are getting all classes to cap, getting any weapon is rewarding enough.

Or if 1 weapon per 10 wins is too good for you people how about---

No repeats: They are unnecessary. instead of having repeats they should turn the repeated weapon into a totem "You can't obtain this weapon so it blew up, pick up that totem" still I think this is too slow and not as rewarding/makes sense as the win 10 times earn 1 weapon approach, it sure makes a a hella more sense than having a repeated weapon that benefits nobody in the group.

Some may argue that this is intentional by SE to make drops low and allow repeats just to prolong the life of their content, so people stay busy forever repeating the same 2-5 instances for months and bitch about that than bitch about the entirety of broken game.

That's probably the case, but then again people giving up on said content find themselves with nothing to do (or want to do again to be accurate) will still bitch about the game.

I do ifrit often and I enjoy it mainly because I like straight tanking bosses and keeping hate on them alot more than trying to crowd control a bunch of weak mobs spawned by a mediocre boss that just encourages people to stack BLMs and nuke everything instead of building balanced PTs to beat 1 strong foe. (I'm too pre-WoW like that /hipster glasses)

Before 1.21 I had about 70 wins on ifrit and about 75~80 wins on moogle. I had 0 weapons from both 1 totem and 5 nut charms. Since 1.21 I have won ifrit once and it dropped my Ifrit Cudgel. (And a totem too.) Haven't done moogle since patch. /desk

Hi All,

There are a lot of good ideas in this thread. I think one of the fundamental flaws with the Primal Fights / Loot System is at its very core:

• The lack of an overarching System to govern the Primal Fights. Specifically, long term replayability that *incentivizes* and inspires players to want to repeat the content other than just a mundane Time Sink (which is what it is now), with a broken Loot System.

At its core, it's pretty obvious that Ifrit (when it came out) and then Moogle *were* the primary source of "Content" for an entire patch. How do they keep players busy for ~2 - 3+ MONTHS between patches?

Sadly, they chose a simple, archaic, blatant Time Sink method of the current Primal Loot System (Forcing Untradeable Drops into a specific player's Inventory), which of course has led to the outcry we have today.

I'm *not* justifying what Yoshida-san and team have done (I deplore it), but I think their reasoning (even now with the 10 -> 5 and 20 -> 10 reduction of Totems/Nuts) is that realistically for some / many(?) players they may *ONLY* want to get their "1 - 3" Weapons for their Main Classes, so realistically for many players, they may be satisfied just doing the Primal Fights until they get their 1 or 2 or 3 weapons and stop.

So it's not even "7/7 Weapons" to collect, it'd be "1 Weapon" or "2" etc. Which means those Players (who only play a few select Classes/Jobs) would get "bored" or be "done" even faster, if they allowed Weapons to be passed.

Now that being said, as some have pointed out here, what Yoshida-san and team *should've* done (and can still do going forward) is:

* Design a Long Term Goal-oriented System, that would inspire players to *want* to repeat the Primal Fights.

Specifically, they could've designed not only Primal Weapons (as they are now), but a few "Primal Artifacts" (i.e., some great OTHER PRIMAL ITEM) that require Rare Materials to complete.

Imagine if Ifrit or Moogle *also* dropped an Ifrit Skull, or Moogle Wing, or an Orihalcum Ingot, or Divine Log, etc. Or if they also had Gear Enhancements (upgrades) where you could gain an Abjuration (Key Item) from the Primal Fights that's necessary to upgrade Gear.

Then imagine if there was a challenging Recipe that required one of these Rare Materials to make some "PRIMAL ITEM" that could be benefit all Classes (they could make a PRIMAL ITEM for Tanks, one for DDs, one for Mages (Offensive or Defensive), a wonderful Crafting Item or Primal Tool, or something for Gatherers).

The point being that with some foresight and thought into designing some Rare Primal Items (other than Weapons), and having them driven by Rare Materials that can *only* be found in the Primal Fights, that alone would add longevity to the Primal Fights (and make players want to play more often), *while* still keeping the ability to PASS / GIVE Primal Weapons to other Party Members.

Yoshida-san and team would save all this grief and headache, and STILL have a good Time Sink, while generating more Positive Feelings instead of just adding FRUSTRATION to this game.

The Primal Weapons drop rate can still be as rare as they are now, but allow the ability to Pass drops to anyone in the Party. But that's only if they also designed a System (and Additional Primal Items with Rare Materials (from Primals Only)) that also dropped from this fight.

I think the problem is exacerbated with the terrible "cover up" by Yoshida-san about why he made the Primal Loot System (paraphrasing: "To prevent ninja looting" - Yah right :rolleyes:) (side note: If he was that concerned about "ninja looting" why are all the new Dungeon Drops (Cutter's Cry & Aurum Vale) *back* to the Loot Pool System to allow players to PASS drops to each other?).

Now this "lowering the drop requirement" for Nuts & Totems is just a bandaid to broken Loot System. Sure it may make it "easier" for some (and the goal is less), but it doesn't resolve the CORE PROBLEM:

A need for a better LONG TERM GOAL-ORIENTED REWARD SYSTEM for Primal Fights.

I sympathize for Yoshida-san. They are trying to make 2.0 (in the background), generating lots of exciting content and perhaps in 2.0 there are Long Term Goal-Oriented Systems (like a Dynamis, or Relics, etc.), but they really should've (and can still) design a *System* that drives players to want to do these Primal Fights repeatedly, that's better than just mind-numbingly repeating the same Primal Fight HUNDREDS of times (for some) just to get the 1 Weapon you want.

With Garuda coming, and them showing off concepts for Leviathan Weapons, sadly, I think they're just banking on keeping players busy with "1 Primal Fight per patch", until 2.0 hits.

I hope we get a more meaningful change before 2.0, or at the very least, when 2.0 launches, they have better Loot Systems and Long Term Goals that make players want to repeat content rather than doing stuff like this.

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

Lol...okay there we have the reason..."America"...this has nothing to do with america...this isn't RL...

Winning at the casino, or the lottery is a luck based system and everybody knows that when he's doing it. They ENJOY the luck factor of it, while in a game that is meant to entertain us, a luck based system is just Bullshit.

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But I enjoy the luck system!! It makes me feel aliiiive....and the only thing I waste is time and not money lol. As I acknowledged not everyone would be opposed to your system, but I would be quite sad if there was no luck going on. Having "lucky" things is a good feeling...im still thrilled about my Ifrit lance and ive had it for a while lol.

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BTW: I'm european myself (I assume you are too) and my experience with other europeans is...they are so full of themselves and usually full of shit...

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Yesssss! I got recognized as a European by a European! All those university classes paid off, I gotta say as an American im frickin thrilled I can pass myself off as a European. Thank god I don't come across as the typical international image of an American aha. Im curious about what led to this assumption :O

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PS: My first Ifrit weapon was PUG fists...my first Moogle weapon was....PUG fists...my PUG has been 38 at that time...

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What a coincidence..my first weapon was pug fists lol.

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Originally Posted by Vire

This is still stupid. What you just said makes no sense. Why would players complain that they are unlucky if it drops a totem every time then there is no luck! You kill him and you make progress towards something. Make totems drop 50% and change it to 5 or give us 100% totem drops and leave it at 10. 70 runs for one fight is more then enough and your burning people out of your game. I have run Ifrit now 70 times and have gotten one weapon I needed and 6 totems. This is more then ridiculous and I can tell you if I have to run garuda over 100 times to get one item I think im going to move on from this game.

Edit: The reason is they want to slow people down on purpose so they don't run out of things to do. How about instead of punishing your players you go the other way and reward them. Make it so that people who have all the weapons have a reason to still run the content like for example being able to turn in primal weapons for seals. That way all the content dose not become outdated because you get exp for completing the quest and you can farm seals while helping newer players get their weapons.

I mean come on at least be honest with us here instead of just lying to our faces we are not stupid. This is not how you treat your customers who are showing a great deal of faith paying for the game that is suppose to be out in 2.0. Just tell us honestly why you didn't change the drop rates.

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lol you must have some bad luck. I started this game 2 months ago. got about 50 ifrit wins, got ifrit axe, bow, claws and have 6 totems :3

I am over 150 wins on Ifirit and I still need the lance I am convinced it is a myth at this point

Previously we made an announcement mentioning that in patch 1.22 we would adjust the exchange rate for items collected from primal battles. As the development team was making adjustments, after giving thorough consideration for balance and other aspects, they have decided to reduce the number of Kupo Nut Charms to 10; however, the number of Inferno Totems will not be reduced and will remain at the cost of 10 each weapon.

We apologize for the change and appreciate your understanding.

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Originally Posted by Camate

however, the number of Inferno Totems will not be reduced and will remain at the cost of 10 each weapon.
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http://daviddemar.files.wordpress.co...e1-291x300.png

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Originally Posted by Camate

Previously we made an announcement mentioning that in patch 1.22 we would adjust the exchange rate for items collected from primal battles. As the development team was making adjustments, after giving thorough consideration for balance and other aspects, they have decided to reduce the number of Kupo Nut Charms to 10; however, the number of Inferno Totems will not be reduced and will remain at the cost of 10 each weapon.

We apologize for the change and appreciate your understanding.

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Booo... personally sad about this one when I saw the JP post... read the post about the new materia and how Ifrit/Mog weapons can be turned into Materia so was thinking 5 totem would make sense... but putting it back to 10 gave me :( face.

+ getting 3x Ifrit Cane in a row since starting Ifrit sucks badly... got Cudgel afterwards but this duplicate item issue is still there... was all happy I was finally gonna get my Bow/Claw with the 10 totems I finally collected with the 5 totem announcement orz

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Originally Posted by Camate

Previously we made an announcement mentioning that in patch 1.22 we would adjust the exchange rate for items collected from primal battles. As the development team was making adjustments, after giving thorough consideration for balance and other aspects, they have decided to reduce the number of Kupo Nut Charms to 10; however, the number of Inferno Totems will not be reduced and will remain at the cost of 10 each weapon.

We apologize for the change and appreciate your understanding.

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This is a bit amateur, in future you should make 100% sure before making announcements.

I stand by what I previously said in the thread, 100% totem and nut drops keep it at 10 tokens per weapon, 20 for new content (Garuda etc)

"We originally announced that we were going to make obtaining rewards a less soul-sucking process. After careful consideration, we determined that we really really like your soul and are going to keep it. Thanks for your understanding."

This doesn't change the fact that people still stack certain classes for the Ifrit fight (THM) so a lot of people get left out can't do the fight anyway because people rather shout in town for 4 hours for 5 THM then get other classes.

10 Ifrits so far = no weapons / totens

Good Job, SE!

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Originally Posted by Sagagemini

10 Ifrits so far = no weapons / totens

Good Job, SE!

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0/10 is nothing, some people in the 100-200's with only 1 weapon

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

0/10 is nothing, some people in the 100-200's with only 1 weapon

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Like me...and now I am only motivated to do Moogle/Ifrit when friends need an 8th to do battle...otherwise I have more productive ways to spend my time.

They really need to adress this loot concern. Having a few people make point systems is a far lesser evil than what we have right now with people getting duplicate items, items they don't want, and others going without just because of the RNG.

LET US PASS THE GOD DAMN ITEMS!

Ye know since they are going to make the primal weapons materiable, <_< they should just get rid of that stupid unique aspect to it and keep them as untradeable so people won't think it's as stupid to be granted the ability that you can turn them into materia with the upcoming VU.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

They really need to adress this loot concern. Having a few people make point systems is a far lesser evil than what we have right now with people getting duplicate items, items they don't want, and others going without just because of the RNG.

LET US PASS THE GOD DAMN ITEMS!

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Yes, Please

This and/or increase drop rate for totems/nuts to a minimum of 2 per fight.

They don't care lol

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Originally Posted by Jynx

LET US PASS THE GOD DAMN ITEMS!

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{YES PLEASE}

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Originally Posted by Scherwiz

They don't care lol

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They just want to drag players to play longer with this method.. which seems backwards...

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

They just want to drag players to play longer with this method...

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You just hit the nail on the head.

JP game methodology is absolutely pathetic. I figured Yoshi P would have realized this when he took over Tanaka's pile of steaming shit. I guess they all think a like over there. People were outraged with Tanaka's system, so they bring in Yoshi P. You'd think he would want to make people as happy as ever because of the grief tactic Tanaka pulled on us. Guess not.

GG.

I'm starting to think that 2.0 isn't going to be very different at all...

Not like ifrit is worth doing outside of H2H and Bow anyways :p

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Originally Posted by Issachar

Not like ifrit is worth doing outside of H2H and Bow anyways :p

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But I want that sword...

0/shootme

I don't know how much clearer I can make this you will actually make people stop playing your game faster when things feel unobtainable versus something you can work towards that is not some stupid grind. As of right now my only intrest was to run moogle once just to say I did it because the idea of having to run moogle another 100 times to get something that is a vanity item is stupid and wont keep players around. People burn out and then quit for the people who do run content a hundred times and I can tell you most of em probably wont be that interested when 2.0 comes around because you already burnt them out of the game. Now I can't speak for everyone how ever I can say I feel fairly confident if you ever want this game to be a commercial success your going to have to make some changes so this game is not ffxi-2. People are sick of that crap in that game too with the new weapon grinds.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Previously we made an announcement mentioning that in patch 1.22 we would adjust the exchange rate for items collected from primal battles. As the development team was making adjustments, after giving thorough consideration for balance and other aspects, they have decided to reduce the number of Kupo Nut Charms to 10; however, the number of Inferno Totems will not be reduced and will remain at the cost of 10 each weapon.

We apologize for the change and appreciate your understanding.

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http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/y...astmanface.jpg
My dreams are now smashed.

Well, one upside may be that if this new batch of materia is exclusive Primal and dungeon gear, we will have a resurgence of interest in that content.

And that will in turn make it easier for those who don't have weapons yet to find parties to get them.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Thats how it should be. Not everyone should get *everything*; things like luck and/or skill should cause some diversity. Handouts are just lame..

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Skill yes i agree totally. skill should be rewarded. luck should not be the governing factor.

i've done ifrit with with friends and grabbed any random guy in uldah just to make the 8th. they've never done it before and spent 99% of the fight dead and walked out with a weapon when the other 7 people worked hard got the win and got nothing. there is no skill there...

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Originally Posted by Camate

Previously we made an announcement mentioning that in patch 1.22 we would adjust the exchange rate for items collected from primal battles. As the development team was making adjustments, after giving thorough consideration for balance and other aspects, they have decided to reduce the number of Kupo Nut Charms to 10; however, the number of Inferno Totems will not be reduced and will remain at the cost of 10 each weapon.

We apologize for the change and appreciate your understanding.

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For real? I'm pissed now. I'm sick and tired of dead weight getting totems and full weapons, while unlucky me get nothing and are always top to second dps. Make it at least totem drop 100% and raise it for 15 whatever. After more than 100 ifrits, having 5 totems is bullshit.

...are you...ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?!

http://i.imgur.com/ZaTjc.gif

Sorry Camate but there's no understanding to be appreciated here.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Skill yes i agree totally. skill should be rewarded. luck should not be the governing factor.

i've done ifrit with with friends and grabbed any random guy in uldah just to make the 8th. they've never done it before and spent 99% of the fight dead and walked out with a weapon when the other 7 people worked hard got the win and got nothing. there is no skill there...

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is it possible to reward player in mmo based on performance? genuine question

fawkin win^ @Wevlum

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Originally Posted by Vire

I don't know how much clearer I can make this you will actually make people stop playing your game faster when things feel unobtainable versus something you can work towards that is not some stupid grind. As of right now my only intrest was to run moogle once just to say I did it because the idea of having to run moogle another 100 times to get something that is a vanity item is stupid and wont keep players around. People burn out and then quit for the people who do run content a hundred times and I can tell you most of em probably wont be that interested when 2.0 comes around because you already burnt them out of the game. Now I can't speak for everyone how ever I can say I feel fairly confident if you ever want this game to be a commercial success your going to have to make some changes so this game is not ffxi-2. People are sick of that crap in that game too with the new weapon grinds.

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Besides the fact that AF weapons look awesome and probably will have better status than ifrit / moogle weapons, so those both can suck it, with these current luck bullshit system.