How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Ya'll heard of parsing in Pagos, now get ready for some next level parsing of less than high end content.

Next up, parsing leveling roulette.

---

Pretty sure people already do that...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

It's apparently not enough SE turns a blind eye to people using ACT as it is, but the abuse is against ToS. You can't say you know parsing isn't impacting how people behave and treat others. Do you have a metric for this? Do you really think people will say they are kicking someone for bad DPS, knowing it's against ToS to use a third party program like ACT?

:| "Giving people metrics to judge each other, that will never affect people being jerks to each other."
*Watches every other facet of life prove this incorrect.*

---

If parsing impacted people to extent insinuated on the forums, you would see mass kicking and widespread complaints about it. And yet in the past year you could count the number of threads bringing up such a dilemma on a single hand. Parse abuse is the same boogeyman nonsense "raider elitism" and other such buzzwords are. You're generalizing the actions of a few.

Don't be obtuse. Judging people and harassment are not the same thing. I can judge you on the context of your post here and now. Is that harassment? If not, then please don't put words in my mouth. Nevertheless, if we're going to fault the tool. Why hasn't Vote Abandon been removed from the game? People spam it incessantly following a couple wipes, especially in 24 mans just to avoid taking a penalty. I can kick you for literally any reason, including "I don't like your glamour." I suppose we need to remove the Vote Kick option, hmm? These argument seems to entirely omit the fact harassment remains against the ToS. If I tell you to uninstall your game, I can be reported. It makes little difference whether I cite parse numbers first. Therefore, unless SE abruptly stops taking harassment seriously, the people who do act like jerks will end up banned.

But yes, let's assume adding an official parse or simply allowing ACT to be discussed openly will magically turn even half the community into raging assholes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Ya'll heard of parsing in Pagos, now get ready for some next level parsing of less than high end content.

Next up, parsing leveling roulette.

---

People already do both. You can even upload dungeon parses to FFlogs nowadays. No one cares, though it would be nice to show DPS why aoeing large pulls is better than single targeting, but I digress.

If I can get a WHM in Aetherochemical Research Facility that doesn't use Holy during large pulls, you won't be able to explain to DPS why AOE abilities on a million mobs is a good thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

Pretty sure people already do that...

---

And the absurdity of it makes my toes curl.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

If parsing impacted people to extent insinuated on the forums, you would see mass kicking and widespread complaints about it. And yet in the past year you could count the number of threads bringing up such a dilemma on a single hand. Parse abuse is the same boogeyman nonsense "raider elitism" and other such buzzwords are. You're generalizing the actions of a few.

---

Last I checked, boogeymen aren't real. However, players kicking others over numbers is history - it happened - it's what made SE clarify that third party programs also included parsers.

I didn't put words in your mouth, nor do I care to address a strawman argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And? Some people are jerks. Welcome to life. A parse or "gatekeeper" isn't going to change that evident by the fact despite parsing technically being against the tos, people are still jerks. Therefore, the parse isn't impacting it. People with a shitty attitude will have one regardless. And people who are otherwise decent won't magically become jerks if ACT were suddenly allowed.

---

You made a statement without fact. You said people will be jerks and parsing won't impact that. I want to know how you know this and what did you do to come to this conclusion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

If parsing impacted people to extent insinuated on the forums, you would see mass kicking and widespread complaints about it.

---

the problem would be the one two punch of parsers and making casual content harder, which a lot of pro-parser people lump together. Casual content being trivial is what keeps parsers from having an impact outside of hard raids. Keep in mind too, if they make parsers legal, eventually they will design content based on people having them, i.e. much more frequent dps checks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Last I checked, boogeymen aren't real. However, players kicking others over numbers is history - it happened - it's what made SE clarify that third party programs also included parsers.

---

And? What does players being kicked, over numbers or otherwise, inherently have to do with toxicity?

What defines a toxic use of parsers to you? Or inversely, at what point does obfuscation of relevant information prevent toxicity, in your opinion? And, at what point specifically is a kick or exclusivity toxic?

Thus far we have a handful of actual accounts of people being kicked "due to numbers".

We have far more of people being kicked because they tanked too quickly or slowly, or, separately, because they suggested that their healer could maybe spend less than 80% of the time idling. We've had people kicked for asking their DPS + tank premade to stand in fewer AoEs.

I've even seen, personally, more times in which someone has been kicked so that a party of two can leave a dungeon without penalty that there are actual accounts of people being, to their mind, unfairly kicked over their numbers. I'd vote against the seemingly trollish kick, be outvoted, and then the remaining two would vanish instantly. Over the course of leveling all but AST to 70, that's happened 7 or 8 times. I've both been the lucky and unlucky of the two premade members to (not) be kicked by a couple of German-queued friends on a NA servers, whose friend quickly joined thereafter for the daily bonus. Now, those are blatant system abuses. I think we can agree that they fall well into or even beyond toxic behavior. But, where does "toxic" begin? Is it when I dare to assert my preferences through words rather than action? Is it fine if I, as a tank, refuse to pull more than the smallest possible number of mobs at a time -- so long as I do so silently -- but not if I suggest that we could pull more if players would use their AoEs? Just, draw your line in the sand. Please.

You've not proposed that these situations, too, are or are not toxic. But if we're going to discuss toxicity that will arrive from conflicts in intent or playstyle--which, information obscured or not all these things come down to--it seems to omit the entire category to which something belongs, even if only in interest of discovering the unique intent towards and results in toxic behavior that parsing may or may trigger. I cannot personally find that uniqueness. I see, if one wishes to categorize it separately, a relative small subset of complaints, dwarfed by other subsets in count yet inversely more notorious. I see a difference in medium, at most. And just I don't consider assault by steak knife fundamentally different in intent or injury than assault by pocket knife, even if the latter can be more easily concealed, I don't see discrimination or abuse (which I would define as action harmful to another's experience without reasonable cause and/or with the intent of personal gain at that others expense via a method outside the ToA) by the fact alone that a more advanced tool was used in causing that injury.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

You made a statement without fact. You said people will be jerks and parsing won't impact that. I want to know how you know this and what did you do to come to this conclusion.

---

I cannot speak on Bourne's behalf, and thus it would be inefficient to retailor a response in his or her place, but if you really are asking for understanding, posts with those very details are already scattered throughout this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

the problem would be the one two punch of parsers and making casual content harder, which a lot of pro-parser people lump together. Casual content being trivial is what keeps parsers from having an impact outside of hard raids. Keep in mind too, if they make parsers legal, eventually they will design content based on people having them, i.e. much more frequent dps checks.

---

We already have a DPS check in ever second dungeon and more.
You just don't notice him because he is balanced for the min ilvl and in general the average casual player exceeds this ilvl.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And? What does players being kicked, over numbers or otherwise, inherently have to do with toxicity?

What defines a toxic use of parsers to you? Or inversely, at what point does obfuscation of relevant information prevent toxicity, in your opinion? And, at what point specifically is a kick or exclusivity toxic?

Thus far we have a handful of actual accounts of people being kicked "due to numbers".

We have far more of people being kicked because they tanked too quickly or slowly, or, separately, because they suggested that their healer could maybe spend less than 80% of the time idling. We've had people kicked for asking their DPS + tank premade to stand in fewer AoEs.

You've not proposed that these, too, are or are not toxic. But if we're going to discuss toxicity that will arrive from conflicts in intent or playstyle--which, information obscured or not all these things come down to--it seems to omit the entire category to which something belongs, even if only in interest of discovering the unique intent towards and results in toxic behavior that parsing may or may trigger. I cannot find that uniqueness. I see, if one wishes to categorize it separately, a relative small subset of complaints, dwarfed by other subsets in count yet inversely more notorious.


I cannot speak on Bourne's behalf, and thus it would be inefficient to retailor a response in his or her place, but if you really are asking for understanding, posts with those very details are already scattered throughout this thread.

---

*Shakes head.*

It has little to do with what I think is toxic. The developers said they wouldn't implement for their own reasons. People are always going to be jerks and the developers think parsers will give jerks more incentive to treat people poorly. What anyone thinks in this thread is irrelevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

Pretty sure people already do that...

---

You say that like it's a bad thing...

The hope is that one learns their job, minus the 70 ability's integration into their rotation and priorities, by the time they hit 70. Why should a learning tool be excluded, then, from the vast majority of that learning process.

Because it makes no sense to exclude people in match-made leveling roulettes? True, true, it doesn't. Hmm. One might even figure that's... not a parser's use except in such tightly tuned fights as where developing poor (enrage-insufficient) in-context muscle memory would cause further stress for the party later on or when trialing members for explicitly exclusive statics?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

*Shakes head.*

It has little to do with what I think is toxic. The developers said they wouldn't implement for their own reasons. People are always going to be jerks and the developers think parsers will give jerks more incentive to treat people poorly. What anyone thinks in this thread is irrelevant.

---

So you see your presence here solely as a PSA?

Even if one may have good reason to believe that, like certain other aspects of the game, the above stance lacks comprehensive thought or is in some way errant, it is worthless to discuss such things, even when that falls well within the parameters of these forums' purpose?

This thread is not titled "Is XIV likely to see an official parser?" The question, if one were to interpolate liberally, is whether it should. And the direct question... is the name of the thread.

I get the realist angle. I do. But you're applying your fixation to a question to which it is irrelevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

*Shakes head.*

It has little to do with what I think is toxic. The developers said they wouldn't implement for their own reasons. People are always going to be jerks and the developers think parsers will give jerks more incentive to treat people poorly. What anyone thinks in this thread is irrelevant.

---

The koike incident is not based on parsing it were some jerks who planned to harrass a person and streamed it live to the world.
6 people griefed an offical staff member by ridiculing her actions and sexually harrassed her, the mentioning of DPS numbers was just a little part of that and not even more than a sideline.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

*Shakes head.*

It has little to do with what I think is toxic. The developers said they wouldn't implement for their own reasons. People are always going to be jerks and the developers think parsers will give jerks more incentive to treat people poorly. What anyone thinks in this thread is irrelevant.

---

You realize they went into her party with the intent of harassing her and making fun of her right at the start? They didn't start making fun of her just because "parses". They would've done the same without parses. Also, prove that sexually harassing her was just because of parses.

Can you people just stop grabbing anything you can and attaching parses to it, just so you can say "parses are the demon itself"?

If you are try to improve, a better tool is to record your fights and see where you are making mistakes. Analyzing a fight to understand where to stand, when to use CDs, how to change your rotation to fit the fight is more help than have a raw parser number. A parser gives you and number , but no supporting supporting data that can help you improve. You could the a fight with the same gear and use the same rotation but get two very different numbers. Why, may you got hit with RNG mechanics that jail you or the boss was position badly so you parsed low. Maybe you got party buff you didn't realized and parsed high. Parses can be helpful , but alone they are not great tool for improving on fights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xMoonshadow

If you are try to improve, a better tool is to record your fights and see where you are making mistakes. Analyzing a fight to understand where to stand, when to use CDs, how to change your rotation to fit the fight is more help than have a raw parser number. A parser gives you and number , but no supporting supporting data that can help you improve. You could the a fight with the same gear and use the same rotation but get two very different numbers. Why, may you got hit with RNG mechanics that jail you or the boss was position badly so you parsed low. Maybe you got party buff you didn't realized and parsed high. Parses can be helpful , but alone they are not great tool for improving on fights.

---

This is wrong. You are talking about a DPS meter, not a parser.
A parser records every action, position and timing, allignment of buffs and debuffs.
So you get all the same like with a video record, you need just the right interpretation and even for that are tools out there like fflogs and xivanalysis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xMoonshadow

If you are try to improve, a better tool is to record your fights and see where you are making mistakes. Analyzing a fight to understand where to stand, when to use CDs, how to change your rotation to fit the fight is more help than have a raw parser number. A parser gives you and number , but no supporting supporting data that can help you improve. You could the a fight with the same gear and use the same rotation but get two very different numbers. Why, may you got hit with RNG mechanics that jail you or the boss was position badly so you parsed low. Maybe you got party buff you didn't realized and parsed high. Parses can be helpful , but alone they are not great tool for improving on fights.

---

Which is why I advocate not only for an ingame parser but a full ingame battle analysis suite a la fflogs. ACT picks up a lot more than damage numbers, and fflogs shows in a very user friendly way:
Damage done
Damage bursts and falloff
Deaths
Healing per second
Casts
Mitigation
Buffs
Positioning throughout the fight

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xMoonshadow

If you are try to improve, a better tool is to record your fights and see where you are making mistakes. Analyzing a fight to understand where to stand, when to use CDs, how to change your rotation to fit the fight is more help than have a raw parser number. A parser gives you and number , but no supporting supporting data that can help you improve. You could the a fight with the same gear and use the same rotation but get two very different numbers. Why, may you got hit with RNG mechanics that jail you or the boss was position badly so you parsed low. Maybe you got party buff you didn't realized and parsed high. Parses can be helpful , but alone they are not great tool for improving on fights.

---

"That website where people upload parses to" lets you analyze all that information. Associating that to a recording of the actual fight would be icing on the cake (improving and acceleratign the analysis process)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So you see your presence here solely as a PSA?

Even if one may have good reason to believe that, like certain other aspects of the game, the above stance lacks comprehensive thought or is in some way errant, it is worthless to discuss such things, even when that falls well within the parameters of these forums' purpose?

This thread is not titled "Is XIV likely to see an official parser?" The question, if one were to interpolate liberally, is whether it should. And the direct question... is the name of the thread.

I get the realist angle. I do. But your applying your fixation to a question to which it is irrelevant.

---

I ... wouldn't consider myself a public service announcer, just someone who remembers when parsers were "okay" and then suddenly it was turned super hush-hush.

I also wouldn't say it's worthless to discuss things, only an acknowledgement that there are those here that will argue simply for the sake of arguing (which I'm sure some would consider me on that boat) without care of what SE's stance is. It's also an acknowledgement of not entirely wanting to press for something that has come back over and over with a no (with increasing levels of disapproval or otherwise not wanting to address the subject) from SE's side.

To answer the thread's title: the players are what would make the parser toxic, but inherently, it would not be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Legion88

The koike incident is not based on parsing it were some jerks who planned to harrass a person and streamed it live to the world.
6 people griefed an offical staff member by ridiculing her actions and sexually harrassed her, the mentioning of DPS numbers was just a little part of that and not even more than a sideline.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

You realize they went into her party with the intent of harassing her and making fun of her right at the start? They didn't start making fun of her just because "parses". They would've done the same without parses. Also, prove that sexually harassing her was just because of parses.

Can you people just stop grabbing anything you can and attaching parses to it, just so you can say "parses are the demon itself"?

---

I'm aware that Koike's incident was not about parsing, but that does not negate the fact that it was a tool that was used to help accomplish that group's goal. It comes down to jerks being jerks and giving them a tool to give them another way to be a jerk. It doesn't matter it was a "sideline" - it was there and it was used in a manner SE is trying to avoid be used.

JohnSpawnVFX, kindly look at the picture as a whole. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, main focus or not, parsing was used to attack someone publicly. No matter how you intended to look at it, it puts tools like parsing in a very negative light. One that won't be so easily forgotten by the company, especially given it was one of their own staff members.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalafellDown

A DPS meter wouldn’t make sense in a video game, but I agree with having one somewhere personally.

Back in 2.0 I didn’t know if I was doing well on a savage boss until someone told me I was number 3. Also during a S hunt someone asked if they were number one and the person said no, Stating that I was number one.

It’s a big confidence booster. People telling you your numbers helps you improve so I agree with it. The down side of it was someone telling me my numbers were too low and so I was booted. I’m glad they told me that because I worked on improving myself. If they never told me I would of continued to be even suckeier.

---

If a dps meter wouldn't make any sense in a video game, where would it make sense then?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You say that like it's a bad thing...

The hope is that one learns their job, minus the 70 ability's integration into their rotation and priorities, by the time they hit 70. Why should a learning tool be excluded, then, from the vast majority of that learning process.

Because it makes no sense to exclude people in match-made leveling roulettes? True, true, it doesn't. Hmm. One might even figure that's... not a parser's use except in such tightly tuned fights as where developing poor (enrage-insufficient) in-context muscle memory would cause further stress for the party later on or when trialing members for explicitly exclusive statics?

---

No feelings intended.


I've actually read about people using them as ast to know which of their randoms would make the most use out of their cards.


I think we should all have parsers, obfuscation of our performance isn't helpful in the long run.

I'm just too lazy to deal with setting it up myself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

I ... wouldn't consider myself a public service announcer, just someone who remembers when parsers were "okay" and then suddenly it was turned super hush-hush.

I also wouldn't say it's worthless to discuss things, only an acknowledgement that there are those here that will argue simply for the sake of arguing (which I'm sure some would consider me on that boat) without care of what SE's stance is. It's also an acknowledgement of not entirely wanting to press for something that has come back over and over with a no (with increasing levels of disapproval or otherwise not wanting to address the subject) from SE's side.

To answer the thread's title: the players are what would make the parser toxic, but inherently, it would not be.





I'm aware that Koike's incident was not about parsing, but that does not negate the fact that it was a tool that was used to help accomplish that group's goal. It comes down to jerks being jerks and giving them a tool to give them another way to be a jerk. It doesn't matter it was a "sideline" - it was there and it was used in a manner SE is trying to avoid be used.

JohnSpawnVFX, kindly look at the picture as a whole. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, main focus or not, parsing was used to attack someone publicly. No matter how you intended to look at it, it puts tools like parsing in a very negative light. One that won't be so easily forgotten by the company, especially given it was one of their own staff members.

---

So you should also advocate against the introduction of a forum or better to its closing and for the removing of chat and emotes because they are the main tools for harrassment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Last I checked, boogeymen aren't real. However, players kicking others over numbers is history - it happened - it's what made SE clarify that third party programs also included parsers.

I didn't put words in your mouth, nor do I care to address a strawman argument.

---

And neither is wide-spread kicking. You're omitting part of my argument to suit your own. I never said people aren't kick. In fact, the very part of my post you quoted specifically highlighted it doesn't happen with any sort of regularity. Therefore, the idea parsers would abruptly cause widespread toxicity simply doesn't add up. They're already prevalent, and people aren't being kicked left and right. Hence why it doesn't exist.

You did precisely that. Nowhere in my initial post did I claim people wouldn't judge others nor did I insinuate otherwise. I find rather ironic you accuse me of strawmanning, when you did so yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

You made a statement without fact. You said people will be jerks and parsing won't impact that. I want to know how you know this and what did you do to come to this conclusion.

---

For reasons stated above. It's common knowledge if you set foot in either EX or Savage, someone in your party will have ACT running. Despite this, people aren't being kicked left and right otherwise we would be seeing threads about it like virtually everything else. We don't. Your entire stance relies on people abruptly turning into assholes because a tool which they already use is allowed to be discussed publicly. Toxic people do not need a parse to be jerks. If someone annoys them, they aren't going to hold back just because they can't reveal what said person's DPS numbers were. Will some people abuse it? Absolutely. Just like the Vote Abandon system hence my previous example—the one who claimed a strawman. Generalizing the entire playerbase based on the action of a few... well, that's a silly position to take.

If you want to get technical, neither of us have any definitive answer one way or another. You cannot claim people will abruptly treat each other worse and the game as a whole will suffer if ACT were discussed openly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

the problem would be the one two punch of parsers and making casual content harder, which a lot of pro-parser people lump together. Casual content being trivial is what keeps parsers from having an impact outside of hard raids. Keep in mind too, if they make parsers legal, eventually they will design content based on people having them, i.e. much more frequent dps checks.

---

Alphascape is harder. You think anyone cares about parsing it? Harder casual content doesn't mean EX or Savage difficulty. How many times do we have to reiterate this? The Vault wasn't hard, but it also wasn't a dungeon I basically fell asleep through. Meanwhile, Swallow's Compass is so laughably easy I literally don't need a healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Legion88

So you should also advocate against the introduction of a forum or better to its closing and for the removing of chat and emotes because they are the main tools for harrassment.

---

Forums are actively enforced by moderators hired by SE. Chat is fixed with minimizing the chat window or blocking someone. Emotes simply need you to move away. Was this supposed to be clever? :thinking: I found it silly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

~snip~

---

Parsers will not magically make them jerks. It will give them a system to utilize to be jerks. There are no metrics for people getting kicked for low DPS (which is what I had been asking of your quote). All of this is subjective views. So arguing about the 'about of this', or 'decrease of this', or 'increase of this' is silly. I'm not trying to convince you of my position - I don't care what you think - my point is YoshiP has vehemently has said no multiple times, so requesting it is a waste of time. Arguing over the details that are his decision is also a waste of time. You're beating a dead horse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

To answer the thread's title: the players are what would make the parser toxic, but inherently, it would not be.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Forums are actively enforced by moderators hired by SE. Chat is fixed with minimizing the chat window or blocking someone. Emotes simply need you to move away. Was this supposed to be clever? :thinking: I found it silly.



Parsers will not magically make them jerks. It will give them a system to utilize to be jerks. There are no metrics for people getting kicked for low DPS (which is what I had been asking of your quote). All of this is subjective views. So arguing about the 'about of this', or 'decrease of this', or 'increase of this' is silly. I'm not trying to convince you of my position - I don't care what you think - my point is YoshiP has vehemently has said no multiple times, so requesting it is a waste of time. Arguing over the details that are his decision is also a waste of time. You're beating a dead horse.

---

A jerk will always be a jerk no matter if he has a tool like the parser or not. This is just an old and useless argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Forums are actively enforced by moderators hired by SE. Chat is fixed with minimizing the chat window or blocking someone. Emotes simply need you to move away. Was this supposed to be clever? :thinking: I found it silly.



Parsers will not magically make them jerks. It will give them a system to utilize to be jerks. There are no metrics for people getting kicked for low DPS (which is what I had been asking of your quote). All of this is subjective views. So arguing about the 'about of this', or 'decrease of this', or 'increase of this' is silly. I'm not trying to convince you of my position - I don't care what you think - my point is YoshiP has vehemently has said no multiple times, so requesting it is a waste of time. Arguing over the details that are his decision is also a waste of time. You're beating a dead horse.

---

And parsers, along with the chat log, would be under Square's regulation, and the introduction of a parser would not make harassment, with or without a parser, legal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Parsers will not magically make them jerks. It will give them a system to utilize to be jerks. There are no metrics for people getting kicked for low DPS (which is what I had been asking of your quote). All of this is subjective views. So arguing about the 'about of this', or 'decrease of this', or 'increase of this' is silly. I'm not trying to convince you of my position - I don't care what you think - my point is YoshiP has vehemently has said no multiple times, so requesting it is a waste of time. Arguing over the details that are his decision is also a waste of time. You're beating a dead horse.

---

In essence, you are blaming the tool. Refer back to my earlier example. It's a silly argument because practically anything can be abused. Regardless, it will be a horse beaten for years as people will continuously ask, especially when the devs do convoluted workarounds that don't accomplish anything like SSS and the job gauges. And to be fair, Yoshida has said a lot of things and gone back on his word. It may well be a waste of time, but why post in a thread whose subject you deem a "waste of time"?

And as already stated. A jerk will always be a jerk. They don't care about using a parse to tell you to "uninstall because you're shit." They were always going to say that because they're a jerk who doesn't care.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And as already stated. A jerk will always be a jerk. They don't care about using a parse to tell you to "uninstall because you're shit." They were always going to say that because they're a jerk who doesn't care.

---

While this is true there is something to be said about giving people less tools to be jerks. We have all played with a much larger amount of jerks than we realise because these people had no parser to use as a platform to be awful people.

As I said before in this thread I played WoW before parsers were commonly used and the community changed for the worse when they became commonplace...or rather, we saw the community for what it actually was to be more precise. When jerks have no ammunition they're just going to play the content like everyone else. When they do have ammo, their true colours come out. I see absolutely no reason why it would be any different in XIV. A parser would most definitely make jerks feel they are justified to be more openly hostile. You only need to use PF for ex and savage to see this behaviour already.

Again not disputing that parsers are useful tools, because they are. The unfortunate truth is they're often used as an excuse to be horrible to people.

It sounds people want to turn the game into a huge HR project.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lunalepsy

It sounds people want to turn the game into a huge HR project.

---

Ha! I never read that comparison made before but it fits so damn well! The poor and useless employees (players) are overprotected compared to the ones actually keeping the company afloat.


Also as far as jerks are concerned. I consider myself one. The only thing holding me back from calling someone out on any mechanical mistake is the fact I could get instantly reported for it. I don't even say stuff like "Hey Ninja, can you delay trick attack to the 5th GCD? Using it on 1st doesn't get the maximum out of it." will get me chastised by the puritans of "playstyle". We just talk smack on discord with our likeminded friends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Connor

particularly because it creates a strict, set guideline on what the ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ way to do things are.

---

In fact, without official parser, there is already the "right/wrong" way to do (right = the one that allow the team to do the most damages.)
and this exists also WITHOUT any parser.

The parser is just a tool to see how much damages (hors heals). Like you can use some tools to know how much the table is wide, the temperature outside or your own weight.


Parser are already in use, parser are already uploaded on a site, where some peoples' damages are already without they know it, even if here they say "parser is baaaad". This tool that only displays DPS information are already in use.
Speaking about toxicity it could generates, or all risks due to parser is just forgetting there is already parser, and they are already used a lot...


For "see wow"
Yes, WoW get some stupid ilvl requirement for some content... FFXIV also
Yes, WoW get some many selfish people... FFXIV also
Yes, WoW get some toxic players venerating god damagemeter (or d***meter also) and... nearly the same in FFXIV without any official.

But, first wow didnt see ilvl (needed informant) and it become crazy with "gearscore addon" (shitty one) and then... people did regulate a little. It is not a "perfectly happy situation" now but far more better than back in WOTLK and this addon.
Selfish people are due that both game can be played solo for most part. And it makes people doing even more thing like asking stupidly high ilvl or being damagemeter-nazi.
God damage meter? Same, first people asked so high sometime, and now, even after 3-4 wipe in LFR people are not kicked due to low damages, or the abyssal damages. But when you see fight like faust (A1S) a fight which only difficulty was the DPS needed. And many party didnt even go through it... What is the solution except seeing who doesnt get enough damages? Same when you hit enrage at 20% life left on boss, but the party did manage perfectly all mechanics...

Toxicity seems most of time here, on WoW forum and other places a word used to complain you were kick and dont want to evolve and see yourself what you maybe did wrong... Easier to complain that people are toxic around you i think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

https://orig00.deviantart.net/197d/f...ne-dbjcxk3.gif

EDIT:

Therein lies the principle issue with relying on Stone Sky Sea as a stand-in for a parser, or even as a gatekeeper. Not every fight will let you belt off your optimal rotation; whether it's due to boss jumping, aoes pulling you out of melee range, repeated aoe dropping giving no time for even a slidecast, or many many other things, a static dummy will not be good preparation for that.

A parser helps in the making of decisions regarding rotation optimization. What gives me the bigger damage output in the end; using embolden on cooldown and executing a double emboldened finisher on the Level Checker in O11S? Or holding it and executing it after Level Checker, since my group can kill Level Checker in either case and using a burst window on the boss is a better use of the group's time?

---

Will either of those things lead to A: A much quicker kill time. B: A clear instead of an enrage wipe.

The answer to both of those is it wont. Sure will those things lead to a slightly better personal 4 digit number at the end of the fight? Sure, but it doesn't do A or B so its pointless and no need to waste official resource on so you can do something that doesn't matter in the grand scheme.

I don't have experience with with o3s just yet but assuming what you say is true then that means there are 2 fights in all of stormblood that require a change to the opener which is the new trail and this fight every other fight in this expansion and pretty much all of them from the last you can just use the muscle memory gained from hitting that dummy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Will either of those things lead to A: A much quicker kill time. B: A clear instead of an enrage wipe.

The answer to both of those is it wont. Sure will those things lead to a slightly better personal 4 digit number at the end of the fight? Sure, but it doesn't do A or B so its pointless and no need to waste official resource on so you can do something that doesn't matter in the grand scheme.

I don't have experience with with o3s just yet but assuming what you say is true then that means there are 2 fights in all of stormblood that require a change to the opener which is the new trail and this fight every other fight in this expansion and pretty much all of them from the last you can just use the muscle memory gained from hitting that dummy

---

Your entire post is based on a logical fallacy that improving optimization can't lead to a clear in situations where a party would otherwise wipe.

Let's set aside the basic issue of enrage for now. Buff optimization is certainly a key tool in beating enrage when you find yourself undergeared for a fight but I'll grant that that isn't very frequent.

How about Dual's examples, through. Let's say he saves Embolden and the party has a nice burst window after the level checker in o11s. Further into the fight some things go wrong and there are some deaths. The dps gained by optimization can make a difference here because what might have spiraled into an enrage wipe is now still salvageable.

Of course on the off chance you have a group of all ps4 players or even PC players who can't or won't run ACT that is just an option that's denied to you. This is the advantage of a parser and why implementing one in game (which wouldn't be a huge resource drain anyways, they have a combat log after all) would be a worthwhile investment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Can you people just stop grabbing anything you can and attaching parses to it, just so you can say "parses are the demon itself"?

---

This is the tactic they use whenever the topic of parsers comes up. They like to deflect their own unreasonable hatred towards parsers and those who use them by blaming "Raiders" and "Elitists" aka people they never play with and use anecdotal examples of potential toxicity that would occur if a official parser was implemented. They will go to any lengths to try to prove that if a official parser was ever added into the game the servers would implode and the game would die. The irony of it all is that the people that are the most toxic are the ones who are completely against parsers for nonsensical reasons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Your entire post is based on a logical fallacy that improving optimization can't lead to a clear in situations where a party would otherwise wipe.

Let's set aside the basic issue of enrage for now. Buff optimization is certainly a key tool in beating enrage when you find yourself undergeared for a fight but I'll grant that that isn't very frequent.

How about Dual's examples, through. Let's say he saves Embolden and the party has a nice burst window after the level checker in o11s. Further into the fight some things go wrong and there are some deaths. The dps gained by optimization can make a difference here because what might have spiraled into an enrage wipe is now still salvageable.

Of course on the off chance you have a group of all ps4 players or even PC players who can't or won't run ACT that is just an option that's denied to you. This is the advantage of a parser and why implementing one in game (which wouldn't be a huge resource drain anyways, they have a combat log after all) would be a worthwhile investment.

---

You aren't looking at this practically. How often can that happen? Do you even know that that little buff change around will make up for 15% reduction in power of whoever died. In order for your situation to arise people would need to be near flawless in their rotations and mechanical execution.

Using myself as an example I'm a ps4 player and when i learn a fight i'm pretty much flawless when it comes to doing the mechanics. As a result and combined with knowledge of how the game works I can make changes in my gameplay to improve weather it be uptime, more uses of important buffs. Do i have the exact numbers in front of me? No and not every fight I do is logged otherwise my fllogs records would be really long. But do I need those numbers in front of me? Also no I already know my damage went up i went from 5 blood for bloods to 9 in the same fight of course my dps went up the exact number of which doesn't matter.

Why you ask, simple this is a team based game if the other players on the team just do what they always do that my extra uses of skills doesn't translate to a faster kill time or the increase from me doesn't save us from an enrage wipe. its only when all 8 players are using logs and making those changes that it can make the difference we call that speed running. Most people don't do that as again there's no real reason to. So the devs shouldn't be wasting resources on something that small section of the community already does just fine pc and ps4 players alike. The additional negatives to the community at large are unnecessary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

You aren't looking at this practically. How often can that happen? Do you even know that that little buff change around will make up for 15% reduction in power of whoever died. In order for your situation to arise people would need to be near flawless in their rotations and mechanical execution.

Using myself as an example I'm a ps4 player and when i learn a fight i'm pretty much flawless when it comes to doing the mechanics. As a result and combined with knowledge of how the game works I can make changes in my gameplay to improve weather it be uptime, more uses of important buffs. Do i have the exact numbers in front of me? No and not every fight I do is logged otherwise my fllogs records would be really long. But do I need those numbers in front of me? Also no I already know my damage went up i went from 5 blood for bloods to 9 in the same fight of course my dps went up the exact number of which doesn't matter.

Why you ask, simple this is a team based game if the other players on the team just do what they always do that my extra uses of skills doesn't translate to a faster kill time or the increase from me doesn't save us from an enrage wipe. its only when all 8 players are using logs and making those changes that it can make the difference we call that speed running. Most people don't do that as again there's no real reason to. So the devs shouldn't be wasting resources on something that small section of the community already does just fine pc and ps4 players alike. The additional negatives to the community at large are unnecessary.

---

Again, you are able to do that. Not everyone can play at a high-level of optimization naturally. Not everyone is able to figure these things out intuitively. Quite a number of players, myself included, need these tools to figure out where we are messing up (because it's not always obvious), where we can improve, how we can compare to better players. Seems like you are arguing that what feels natural and easy to you should be natural and easy to everybody else that plays, and that simply just isn't possible or true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Again, you are able to do that. Not everyone can play at a high-level of optimization naturally. Not everyone is able to figure these things out intuitively. Quite a number of players, myself included, need these tools to figure out where we are messing up (because it's not always obvious), where we can improve, how we can compare to better players. Seems like you are arguing that what feels natural and easy to you should be natural and easy to everybody else that plays, and that simply just isn't possible or true.

---

Again you miss the point. The point is that there is no point to parsing it means nothing unless you are speed running. As long as you follow your rotation you are fine. if you cannot preform your rotation because mechanics are messing with you a parser is not going to tell you or help you with anything playing the game and committing that rotation to memory however will. If you are unable to do that you have 2 options: play a class which you can do that with o:r stay out of savage and extreme fights for about 5-6 months from there release date. At which point your gear will make up for any rotational mistake unless you are just hitting buttons at random.

And you really are overestimating optimizing the bosses in this game do the same thing at the same time every single time without fail. its a simple matter of paying attention if you aren't paying attention its because your too busy staring at your hot bars. and we have discussed at length at how you go about fixing that

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Again you miss the point. The point is that there is no point to parsing it means nothing unless you are speed running. As long as you follow your rotation you are fine. if you cannot preform your rotation because mechanics are messing with you a parser is not going to tell you or help you with anything playing the game and committing that rotation to memory however will. If you are unable to do that you have 2 options: play a class which you can do that with o:r stay out of savage and extreme fights for about 5-6 months from there release date. At which point your gear will make up for any rotational mistake unless you are just hitting buttons at random.

and you really are overestimating optimizing

---

No, you're underestimating it.

Optimization aside how do you think rotations are even constructed?

Your ignorance as to how this game works for many people is really irritating. It's clear you've made up your mind, enjoy being wrong I guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Again you miss the point. The point is that there is no point to parsing it means nothing unless you are speed running. As long as you follow your rotation you are fine. if you cannot preform your rotation because mechanics are messing with you a parser is not going to tell you or help you with anything playing the game and committing that rotation to memory however will. If you are unable to do that you have 2 options: play a class which you can do that with o:r stay out of savage and extreme fights for about 5-6 months from there release date. At which point your gear will make up for any rotational mistake unless you are just hitting buttons at random.

And you really are overestimating optimizing the bosses in this game do the same thing at the same time every single time without fail. its a simple matter of paying attention if you aren't paying attention its because your too busy staring at your hot bars. and we have discussed at length at how you go about fixing that

---

If I have a run where I sit at 4.9k, and I've done my rotation correctly, and the nearest DPS to me is sitting at 5.3k, there is a problem with something that I am doing because I have been capable of pulling higher. Yet, on paper, I've done my rotation correctly. I should be higher. Diving into more details like being able to parse naturally and then read that information and figure out what else I am missing out. At min ilvl, every little bit of contribution does count. And by the way, the information used from a parser was able to pull me from 4.9k to 6.0k, which matters a lot, especially within the first month of a new raid. Once again, you are simplifying matters as if it really is that simple. It is not. Again, what comes to you naturally, does not come naturally to other players. How is that a hard concept to grasp?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

snip.

---

This has to be one of the most dedicated trolls I've seen in a while. Saying stuff like "Using myself as an example I'm a ps4 player and when i learn a fight i'm pretty much flawless when it comes to doing the mechanics" and "The point is that there is no point to parsing it means nothing unless you are speed running". The only thing that's proven here is that you are clearly consumed by your own ego and that you have no idea how parsing works. Those optimized rotations you keep talking about, would like you to take a guess how theory crafters came up with those? I'm sure you have the capacity to figure that out. Ignorance is bliss i suppose, have fun sitting in that little bubble you've crafted around yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

No, you're underestimating it.

Optimization aside how do you think rotations are even constructed?

Your ignorance as to how this game works for many people is really irritating. It's clear you've made up your mind, enjoy being wrong I guess.

---

Or you just forgot what optimize means. The rotations are the base point you optimize by building off that for fights were you can get more damage out. The thing you're missing is that step is useless as the game does not require you to do that to clear anything. I understand how the game works you just think it revolves around speed running. It doesn't it never has and probably never will when we get fights that require all of us to update and change our rotations around in order to clear it and failure to do so means enrage wipes 100% of the time is when parser become required. Until then learn to separate what you like doing in the game from what is required of you from the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Penthea

While this is true there is something to be said about giving people less tools to be jerks. We have all played with a much larger amount of jerks than we realise because these people had no parser to use as a platform to be awful people.

As I said before in this thread I played WoW before parsers were commonly used and the community changed for the worse when they became commonplace...or rather, we saw the community for what it actually was to be more precise. When jerks have no ammunition they're just going to play the content like everyone else. When they do have ammo, their true colours come out. I see absolutely no reason why it would be any different in XIV. A parser would most definitely make jerks feel they are justified to be more openly hostile. You only need to use PF for ex and savage to see this behaviour already.

Again not disputing that parsers are useful tools, because they are. The unfortunate truth is they're often used as an excuse to be horrible to people.

---

Numerous people have claimed the opposite regarding WoW; that its toxicity comes from a variety of places, not simply parsers.

Even taken at face value. I, personally, disagree with a coddle mentality. They took this approach with Feast chat and look how well that worked? It's among the many reasons people won't even bother with PvP. Regardless, wouldn't it be better to reap the benefits of a helpful tool while simultaneously banning people who abuse it? After all, if they did feel emboldened to harass people, they'll be caught much quicker than they would otherwise.