The WOL and Mass Murder

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Originally Posted by PastelGothGuy01

If that happened, our WoL would feel betrayed, and just like his Ascian brethren he might wanna take revenge, he'll probably be all like "Our WoL: Emet-Selch and Elidibus were right...These malformed creatures are undeserving of my care love or praise or my protection, they turn their back on the one who saved them for fear of my power,they don't desserve to inherit this world, and as the last remaining of my brethren i must end these lying humans, thus like like my brothers before me i shall go about and carry out their wish and complete the rejoining by summoning "Lord Zodiark" just like how Elidibus and Emet-Selch and the others wanted to do, i shall end this...I shall end it all with the power i have and once again turn this world how it should have been like long ago before the calamity...Forgive me Hydalyn...I must disappoint you...Once everything is done and over with i will bring back my people,for the convocation...For i am Azem 14th seat of the convocation of 14, and thus i shall not give these malformed creatures any quarter!...."And thus the true calamity starts. "Our WoL: Worry not my brothers...I will bring you all back and take revenge for you all for these malformed creatures in tricking me to put you all down!...I shall never forgive them for making me kill you my brothers and i shall see our paradise lost restored!..." A lot of scaryness would ensue from this And the true chaos would start. O ___ O; if the people who our WoL trusted turned their back on us and betray us.

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20/02/2018 06h40

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

20/02/2018 06h40

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They just HAD to spread their adoration of the Ascians and declaration that they're 'brethren' wherever they found to say it!

Frankly I'm VERY confused they found this thread for it. I don't even know what search method and terms they used to get here that wouldn't have put them somewhere more recent first.

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

20/02/2018 06h40

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And? There's clearly more conversation to be had.

I for one don't even think we've killed all that many people total. Yeah you can go out and fight an unlimited spawn of bandits or whatever, but that's not really a canonical kill count.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

I for one don't even think we've killed all that many people total.

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WHO did we kill? It's not always obvious to me thanks to "somehow she survived and lost all her memory" and rezzing Zenos, aswell as... folks we just "beat"... i mean did we kill that annoying guy at the end of the doma castle dungeon or not?

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Originally Posted by BRVV

WHO did we kill? It's not always obvious to me thanks to "somehow she survived and lost all her memory" and rezzing Zenos, aswell as... folks we just "beat"... i mean did we kill that annoying guy at the end of the doma castle dungeon or not?

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Off the top of my head, named characters, MSQ (and CT since it's required) only?

-Rhitahtyn sas Arvina
-Livia sas Junius
-Crystal Tower denizens (Acheron, Scylla, Phlegethon, Amon Clone, Xande)
-Tioman
-Igeyorhm
-Archbishop Thordan VII and the Heavens' Ward (13 total)
-Nidhogg
-Grynewaht pyr Arvina
-Aulus mal Asina
-Yotsuyu goe Brutus (as Tsukuyomi)
-Ran'jit
-Vauthry / Innocence
-Emet-Selch / Hades
-Elidibus / Themis(?)
-Amon (Aitiascope)
-Endsinger (constituted of all but one of the Meteia)
-Zenos viator Galvus

So around 33 people, not counting the scores of tribals and Imperial (and a few Ishgardian and Eulmoran) soldiers even if you run dungeons only once and ignore overworld stuff like the Trials of the Braves for the 2.X Relic Weapons.

The things one comes up with in a post when your initial premise is based on a misunderstanding of the English language. From the initial OP post "We have a veritable ocean of blood on our hands". This is just hyperbolic nonsense of the first order.

Defeated, killed. Appropriate words. As is the word "War".

Murder, on the other hand. Inappropriate as heck, given the general understanding in the world about what 'murder' really is. Makes for great political rhetoric, but just not applicable to the Warrior of Light.

We are gamers, in a gaming culture, playing a game about being a warrior. Leave political meanderings to the Network Pundits.

"This is just hyperbolic nonsense of the first order."

It would take about 572 billion people to fill Lake Michigan.

Lake Michigan, United States of America, lower-end of the 'volume' estimate: 756,993,907,779 gallons.

Human blood volume, average estimate: 5 liters. (about 1.32 gallons)

Current human population on Earth, about 7.5 billion.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Off the top of my head, named characters, MSQ (and CT since it's required) only?

-Rhitahtyn sas Arvina
-Livia sas Junius
-Crystal Tower denizens (Acheron, Scylla, Phlegethon, Amon Clone, Xande)
-Tioman
-Igeyorhm
-Archbishop Thordan VII and the Heavens' Ward (13 total)
-Nidhogg
-Grynewaht pyr Arvina
-Aulus mal Asina
-Yotsuyu goe Brutus (as Tsukuyomi)
-Ran'jit
-Vauthry / Innocence
-Emet-Selch / Hades
-Elidibus / Themis(?)
-Amon (Aitiascope)
-Endsinger (constituted of all but one of the Meteia)
-Zenos viator Galvus

So around 33 people, not counting the scores of tribals and Imperial (and a few Ishgardian and Eulmoran) soldiers even if you run dungeons only once and ignore overworld stuff like the Trials of the Braves for the 2.X Relic Weapons.

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Every starting questline also has one named-character kill; Gridania has Janremi Blackheart, Ul'Dah has Garibald the Fargone, Limsa has Baenryss of the Deep. All three are confirmed dead thanks to PotD, which also confirms that those guys got killed by someone else even if we weren't there.

Once we get into vagueries and unnameds, there's a scant few times when certain job questlines/starting cities have slightly more blood on their hands where it is confirmed deaths, and (for the 'but the WoL is baaaaaaad' crowd) includes actual non-aggravated murders. If you wanted to determine the potential WoL with the highest bodycount, then the bloodiest WoL start is probably Lancer, thanks to Gridania WoL killing three qiqirn as vengeance for a threat, and being plausibly charged with the death of Foulques of the Mists (granted, he attacked first). If you wanted to then branch into exactly one post-launch job, our bloodiest Theoretical WoL is actually a Lancer/Dragoon-turned-Dark Knight; 30-50 DRK has quite a bodycount, thanks to Fray.

I'm not sure what my point is here. Maybe it's that people who pick DRK and then say that the WoL is a killer/bad person have completed a self-fulfilling prophecy?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

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The canon WoL is all of these jobs at once, meaning they have done quite a few rather unsavory things. Whether you want to call them good or evil, they truly do have quite a bit of innocent blood on their hands. Trying to say otherwise is disingenuous.

Is there really a 'canon' player character, though? If you want to go through the game disguised as a moogle while striking your opponents with the flat of your blade, then you can, kupo.

I would assume a cannon job would be any job the WoL has been shown as in official art. So far that would be Archer, Pld, War, Mnk, Sam, Drg and Drk. Meteor really loves his tanks. Anyways I still don't think the WoL is as much of a blood thirsty murder hobo as the OP and some others think they are. Also no where as close to probably Halone who one time went on a walk with Orcheon and killed everything that they came upon. Which extremely pissed off Norphica to the point some of the other Gods had to intervene. You know you have a high body count when a nature Goddess is seriously wanting to commit some murder.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Anyways I still don't think the WoL is as much of a blood thirsty murder hobo as the OP and some others think they are.

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Yeah. Focusing on things like 'how many people have they killed and how bad of a person does that make them' is a bit of a disingenuous argument, because the story itself doesn't carry that or even really consider it. The WoL is a person in a world and job where death happens... frankly, much more often than I would hope most of us are used to, and frequently finds themselves in exactly the situations where they have to do that themselves. Take Zenos' view in what that says about the WoL as a person if you wish, but the fact is the WoL killing something in their line of work is nowhere near the same as how we, as presumable civilians in what's probably been mostly a peaceful life, see a person killing someone. (I know I'm making assumptions about audience here, but I hope you get my point.)

So trying to declare them evil or cruel needs to be determined less by our interpretation of their deeds, and more by the interpretations of everybody around them. And the world around the WoL clearly recognizes that they are a good person, doing what's right. Granted, some of that has changed over time--most instances of outright murder or more morally dubious acts of violence come from 2.0, where the tone was much darker since it was carried over from 1.0--but broadly the WoL is seen as a good, well-meaning and helpful person. Nobody treats them ill for 'too bad you killed all those people', so we can reasonably assume that as far as the general moral views of the world around them, the WoL is considered A Good Person.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Every starting questline also has one named-character kill; Gridania has Janremi Blackheart, Ul'Dah has Garibald the Fargone, Limsa has Baenryss of the Deep. All three are confirmed dead thanks to PotD, which also confirms that those guys got killed by someone else even if we weren't there.

Once we get into vagueries and unnameds, there's a scant few times when certain job questlines/starting cities have slightly more blood on their hands where it is confirmed deaths, and (for the 'but the WoL is baaaaaaad' crowd) includes actual non-aggravated murders. If you wanted to determine the potential WoL with the highest bodycount, then the bloodiest WoL start is probably Lancer, thanks to Gridania WoL killing three qiqirn as vengeance for a threat, and being plausibly charged with the death of Foulques of the Mists (granted, he attacked first). If you wanted to then branch into exactly one post-launch job, our bloodiest Theoretical WoL is actually a Lancer/Dragoon-turned-Dark Knight; 30-50 DRK has quite a bodycount, thanks to Fray.

I'm not sure what my point is here. Maybe it's that people who pick DRK and then say that the WoL is a killer/bad person have completed a self-fulfilling prophecy?

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Let's be honest here, how many people would actually charge us with that for Foulques of all people? I mean, come on you said it yourself he literally committed multiple crimes already which the average adventurer could theoretically kill him in retaliation for. Assuming of course we're discounting killing someone on the basis of pre-crime.

It's actually a shame, since I actually liked Foulques and wanted to get justice for him. Another victim of ARR's shitty writing, really. Then again, consider how long ago it happened I wonder just how plausible bringing the true situation to light might end up being.

Anyway, none of this is truly necessary since "canon" events are completely irrelevant in an MMO. For the player character, anyway. You wanna play a magical girl that literally does no wrong and kills nobody ever? Go right ahead. You wanna instead roleplay a former Garlean Legatus or Ascian turncoat that the Scions only keep around despite their enormous bodycount because they need them to slay all the primals? Work it, you edgelord you.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Let's be honest here, how many people would actually charge us with that for Foulques of all people? I mean, come on you said it yourself he literally committed multiple crimes already which the average adventurer could theoretically kill him in retaliation for. Assuming of course we're discounting killing someone on the basis of pre-crime.

It's actually a shame, since I actually liked Foulques and wanted to get justice for him. Another victim of ARR's shitty writing, really. Then again, consider how long ago it happened I wonder just how plausible bringing the true situation to light might end up being.

Anyway, none of this is truly necessary since "canon" events are completely irrelevant in an MMO. For the player character, anyway. You wanna play a magical girl that literally does no wrong and kills nobody ever? Go right ahead. You wanna instead roleplay a former Garlean Legatus or Ascian turncoat that the Scions only keep around despite their enormous bodycount because they need them to slay all the primals? Work it, you edgelord you.

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I don't think the headcanon people have is really relevant when dealing with the canonical kill count the WoL have. We did kill at least a hundred garleans by our hands, and a couple named characters.

If we have to integrate the headcanon of someone who never kill anyone, there's not even a possibility to discuss, this is why canon facts from the game are what must be discussed to judge the WoL on that front.

I also agree with Foulques, we forgave and help people as dangerous or sick as him, it's kind of gross that we just kill him and nothing is being done to change the mentality of people in Gridania.
We really need content dealing with the elementals and Gridania rampant discrimination and racism.

It is wild that even in the Endwalker role quest, we don't acknowledge how horrible Elementals are, we killed gods for less, we should get working on the elementals.

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

I don't think the headcanon people have is really relevant when dealing with the canonical kill count the WoL have. We did kill at least a hundred garleans by our hands, and a couple named characters.

If we have to integrate the headcanon of someone who never kill anyone, there's not even a possibility to discuss, this is why canon facts from the game are what must be discussed to judge the WoL on that front.

I also agree with Foulques, we forgave and help people as dangerous or sick as him, it's kind of gross that we just kill him and nothing is being done to change the mentality of people in Gridania.
We really need content dealing with the elementals and Gridania rampant discrimination and racism.

It is wild that even in the Endwalker role quest, we don't acknowledge how horrible Elementals are, we killed gods for less, we should get working on the elementals.

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We didn't kill Foulques, he brought his end upon himself by being blatantly hostile and taking his anger out on innocents uninvolved in what happened to him. No, as a matter of fact we tried to save him from backpedaling off a cliff but failed.

Even then, being a member of an oppressed demographic hardly gives one carte blanche to commit criminal acts with impunity.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

We didn't kill Foulques, he brought his end upon himself by being blatantly hostile and taking his anger out on innocents uninvolved in what happened to him. No, as a matter of fact we tried to save him from backpedaling off a cliff but failed.

Even then, being a member of an oppressed demographic hardly gives one carte blanche to commit criminal acts with impunity.

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That was basically a disney villain death, so... yeah... of course that's true for almost every villain death in FFXIV.

Regardless, the self-disposing villain is ever convenient so the hero(es) never has actual blood on their hands. Childish writing, indeed.

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Originally Posted by Misplaced_Marbles

That was basically a disney villain death, so... yeah... of course that's true for almost every villain death in FFXIV.

Regardless, the self-disposing villain is ever convenient so the hero(es) never has actual blood on their hands. Childish writing, indeed.

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That's... actually rather in the minority of villains for this game, though.

Just sticking with MSQ and tentpole side-content, the only dead villains that didn't die to us that I can think of are...
-Teledji, Lahabrea, Asahi, technically Elidibus, Quickthinx, and Gabranth in the category of 'someone else ended them first',
-Zenos and Amon in the category of 'killed themselves before we got to do it',
-And spoiler-tagged because it's 6.2,

Hephaistos, also in the 'someone else ended them first' category.

Most everyone else died to us, rather explicitly. Most of the ones that didn't die at all are things that literally can't die, like Omega.

The WoL's K/D/A is prodigious, it's just that the vast majority of those cases were aggravated or wartime contexts, so their murder count is so low that your choice of job changes it considerably rather than just being in the margins.

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

It is wild that even in the Endwalker role quest, we don't acknowledge how horrible Elementals are, we killed gods for less, we should get working on the elementals.

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The Elementals are a funny one for us, as people who both are English-speaking players and people who for the most part didn't play 1.0, because that leaves us absent a lot of the cultural and historical context for the Elementals. Namely, wiht two things.

1. we're missing the IRL cultural context that the Elementals are heavily based on the classical image of the kami from Japanese beliefs. It's pretty clear when you know that context that they're clearly fitting into the mold of 'if we keep them happy we get blessed with nature's bounties, if they're upset then natural disasters happen'. Visually there's European fae mixed in, but the Gridanian relationship with the fae is straight-up the kami.
2. In terms of in-game cultural context, we miss the good things the Elementals do and only see the bad. Because... well, there's not much appeal in a game like this in focusing on bountiful harvests, helpful weather, and other things that happen when the Elementals are happy. But when they're upset? Natural disasters, curses, blights, even tangential stuff like the Hearers' approach to the whole thing. There's more focus on the negative for the Elementals because the negatives are much more visual and interesting.
And 3. as people who mostly didn't play 1.0, we don't know how ABSOLUTELY HORRIFYINGLY POWERFUL the Elementals are. They disintegrate people, they turn them into monsters. They actually were mobs in 1.0, and you genuinely didn't want to piss them off because they were forty levels higher than maximum. I don't care how storng you think your character is, if they swing at an Elemental, they're not walking away from that fight.

I believe we have the ultimate defence to whoever we offed: "They shot first".

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

I also agree with Foulques, we forgave and help people as dangerous or sick as him, it's kind of gross that we just kill him and nothing is being done to change the mentality of people in Gridania.

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Having just played through the level 30 Lancer quest again, it must be reiterated that we did not kill Foulques, nor were we at a point where he would have died by our hand. "We just kill him" is an incorrect summary of both the battle beforehand and what came after. It's statements like the above that lead to the gross misrepresentation of our actions as 'murders'.

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We really need content dealing with the elementals and Gridania rampant discrimination and racism.

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The elementals are as alien to us as the inhabitants of Alpha Centauri. They appear to be arbiters of who gets to live in the woods, but their thoughts are not our thoughts and their decisions are not based on human psychology.

The discrimination of Gridanians toward the Duskwight is not built on centuries of slavery in North America. The conditions are different, the appearance of racism is not our own. You've got content about the methods for dealing with the situation, you've either not done any side quests to see them or you've missed them.

Then again, I've noted more True(TM) Gridanians have been the cause of doom, disaster and despair than Duskwights in this game.

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It is wild that even in the Endwalker role quest, we don't acknowledge how horrible Elementals are, we killed gods for less, we should get working on the elementals.

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We've killed Primals, who are not really gods. We didn't wipe out the so-called Beast Tribes because they summoned Primals. We went out of our way to engage them and, eventually, win a small amount of trust that things going forward will be better.

You consider Elementals to be horrible, and apparently wish to wipe them out, or put them in their place (whatever that is). I consider them to be Forces of Nature, beyond our comprehension and understanding. One might as well rail against the Thunderstorm, for all the good it would do us.

Can we keep leftist ideals out of our game please? What next? Calling to defund the Grand Companies?

The elementals are a great cause of concern going forward. From reading how they acted in 1.0, the Calamity have bought Gridanian's time to figure out a way to contain them. Killing them seems impossible, but hopefully they can be prevented from going pyscho nature gods that kill people for stepping on flowers ever again.

As for the WoL being a mass killer...yes? I mean that is what the world needs. They need the WoL to kill the threats that pop up.

I do no think people are too scared to try and stop us though. Yes we can kill gods. But the Uldah city guard can force us to flee and leave our coworkers to die. So clearly we are not all powerful. Except for when we are.

Game is kinda all over the place with power levels.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

I do no think people are too scared to try and stop us though. Yes we can kill gods. But the Uldah city guard can force us to flee and leave our coworkers to die. So clearly we are not all powerful. Except for when we are.

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Primals aren't real gods. We are encountering real gods in the Myths of the Realm series (far as anyone can figure) but it's implied they're holding back their full might and just testing us. (Except Nald'thal after they use their super. Maybe.) We never manage to kill any of them.

Didn't kill the Ul'dah guards / Crystal Braves during our escape because that would validate Teledji / Lolorito's claims and be a political nightmare. It's the hasty conclusion to a filler arc anyway.

Love the people who think that the correct response to being framed for murder in 2.55 is to commit actual murder on the way out. I genuinely wonder what they think the actual issues at play were. Maybe 'insufficient fealty to the warlord I decree myself to be'.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Love the people who think that the correct response to being framed for murder in 2.55 is to commit actual murder on the way out. I genuinely wonder what they think the actual issues at play were. Maybe 'insufficient fealty to the warlord I decree myself to be'.

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We all saw how well that worked out for Raubahn. But then, the "Law" only exists when it's convenient for the Monetarists. They can go die, matter of fact viva la revolutione~ let's go murder Eorzean capitalism right now.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

We all saw how well that worked out for Raubahn. But then, the "Law" only exists when it's convenient for the Monetarists. They can go die, matter of fact viva la revolutione~ let's go murder Eorzean capitalism right now.

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There's that Ala Mhigan in Ul'dah, Landebert, who is literally speaking revolutionary rhetoric. Lolorito personally hires him to guard his banks, with a sort of "oho, you wish to unionize? Then unionize all you like! I look forward to the challenge!" recruiting speech.

If there is ever a minor sidequest character I want to follow, that man is it.

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The important thing for us now is not to fall prey to the lie that is the Ul'dahn dream, for that is but a tool they use to divide us. Only through united purpose and collective action will we achieve lasting change for ourselves and our children.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

There's that Ala Mhigan in Ul'dah, Landebert, who is literally speaking revolutionary rhetoric. Lolorito personally hires him to guard his banks, with a sort of "oho, you wish to unionize? Then unionize all you like! I look forward to the challenge!" recruiting speech.

If there is ever a minor sidequest character I want to follow, that man is it.

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say what you want about lolorito but he makes a great (talespin) shere khan.

Let's just say the kind of self-serving agenda a man like Lolorito has is the kind that'd be squashed out like the parasite it is in the World that came Before. A World that Never Was, now wouldn't you say? Can't say I fully register how someone can like Venat and subscribe to her ideals and morals and form of justice AND wanna follow Lolorito the the Seven Hells, but eh people are gonna do what they gonna.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Let's just say the kind of self-serving agenda a man like Lolorito has is the kind that'd be squashed out like the parasite it is in the World that came Before. A World that Never Was, now wouldn't you say? Can't say I fully register how someone can like Venat and subscribe to her ideals and morals and form of justice AND wanna follow Lolorito the the Seven Hells, but eh people are gonna do what they gonna.

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that doesn't sound right considering all of pandaemonium exists to satisfy the self serving wants of athena and her experiments. only difference being she prettied it up before her death.

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Originally Posted by Kukajoo

Something that's been irking me for a long time is the sheer number of people we've killed as the warrior of light? We are people with inhumane power, the echo allows us to overcome any obstacle and so far the limit the top of the food chain. Should a stronger existence, Zenos for example, present itself before us, we simply surpass it. But what happens when the wartime comes to an end?When will the eyes of the people turn from admiration to fear? We have a veritable ocean of blood on our hands. I'd love to see more exposition on this, i want the WOL to be held accountable for his actions, i wan't our allies and friends have at least an arc where our ridiculous power level is a matter of concern rather than a fix-all-do-all solution

How do you guys feel about this? Do you think we should be reprimanded or should we keep getting a free pass for "justice" ? I realize we can't truly ever be held accountable, locked away, and so on as its an mmorpg in the end but at least a nod, or an arc encompassing it to some degree would be nice.

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Still, there are pacifists who think the world will solve itself because you are afraid to get your hands dirty...
It works Irl, because the world will continue to turn good or bad without you.

So, if I follow your reasoning, it was better to let the Amalja kidnap people to sacrifice them to Ifrit, because it is pacifist?

It was better to let Garlemald invade Eorzea and it becomes a militaristic and totalitarian empire, because it's pacifist?

Is it better to let the Ascians merge the different reflections of the primitive world and thus destroy every civilization present in each reflection and cause billions of deaths with each fusion in the first reflection, because it is pacifist?

It seems to me an excellent idea !!! We should have just grown lalafells !!!

The problem with killing Lolorito is that killing him doesn't actually do anything to disrupt the balance of power, all that would happen is that someone else would replace him on the syndicate, someone who might be more hostile to the Sultana and the scions and less willing to work with us if he could find it profitable.

it's actually a very clear example of how violence can't necessary solve every problem that appears in front of the WoL.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

that doesn't sound right considering all of pandaemonium exists to satisfy the self serving wants of athena and her experiments. only difference being she prettied it up before her death.

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The truth of what went down in Pandaemonium was being hidden from the public, by Athena as you said. Perhaps he was wrong to do so and being so genial and generous in his dealings with mad scientists was a mistake, but Elidibus/Themis could easily have torn the whole place down when he discovered what went down in there but instead actively chose to give the people running the show they benefit of the doubt. Rather human and fair of him, wouldn't you say? Not at all like the scary, impossible to understand precursor race Yoshida would have us believe the Ancients are.

Regardless to address your point, yes if it was public there would be plenty calling for its shutdown (Though, whether they'd be all that successful in such and endeavour is entirely up for debate. It WAS being ran by the Words of Lahabrea, after all) I do believe. That is, after all what we and Themis were there for. To investigate Pandaemonium and it's collaborators, and put them down if need be.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

The problem with killing Lolorito is that killing him doesn't actually do anything to disrupt the balance of power, all that would happen is that someone else would replace him on the syndicate, someone who might be more hostile to the Sultana and the scions and less willing to work with us if he could find it profitable.

it's actually a very clear example of how violence can't necessary solve every problem that appears in front of the WoL.

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In all honesty, that really wasn't the point I was making and you're taking the wrong lessons from this. Regardless, tearing the weed that is the Syndicate out from the root can ONLY benefit Ul'dah. Every cultural problem we saw so clearly in the early Ul'dahn MSQ and the issues we bear witness to just prior to the Bloody Banquet can be near directly attributed to the Syndicate and the way of life they engender and encourage through their mere existence.

It wouldn't be an easy task to accomplish, yet it's a goal worth striving for nevertheless. At least, it is to me. The Syndicate benefits no one but themselves, and take from all. Ergo, they are a cancer. One to be excised from the greater whole, for the benefit of all.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

The problem with killing Lolorito is that killing him doesn't actually do anything to disrupt the balance of power, all that would happen is that someone else would replace him on the syndicate, someone who might be more hostile to the Sultana and the scions and less willing to work with us if he could find it profitable.

it's actually a very clear example of how violence can't necessary solve every problem that appears in front of the WoL.

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Another reason to keep him around is despite his action he and godbert does begin teaching nanamo how to rule more effectively while navigating the two council faction.... which brings me back to the shere khan comparison lol.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

Another reason to keep him around is despite his action he and godbert does begin teaching nanamo how to rule more effectively while navigating the two council faction.... which brings me back to the shere khan comparison lol.

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A useful evil, yet remains an evil nevertheless. Assisting Nanamo Ul Namo in ruling proficiently is merely his way of proving useful. In a way, Nanamo betrayed herself and what she claimed to stand for by capitulating. If I recall various fictional trends, the "grit-teeth enemies forced by circumstance to partner up" trope inevitably comes to an end sooner or later. So, regardless of his uses Lolorito and the Syndicate remain an evil to be excised. The only real concern is when to drive in the metaphorical stake, so to speak.

While the Syndicate is far from a public good, you need to have a much better plan than either 'bloody murder' or 'abruptly legislate out of existence', because both of those things failed pretty miserably.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

While the Syndicate is far from a public good, you need to have a much better plan than either 'bloody murder' or 'abruptly legislate out of existence', because both of those things failed pretty miserably.

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I never once advocated for such a violent and inefficient solution, nay that motive was painted onto me by another. But regardless of what solution is devised, I won't budge on the point of the Syndicate being an unnecessary evil that has no vindication for it's further existence as a part of Ul'dah's governing body. To be clear, I'm not even advocating for the deaths of those that make up the Syndicate. Nay, the Syndicate as an idea is rotting from the inside out and must be abolished for the good of all Ul'dahns.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

I never once advocated for such a violent and inefficient solution, nay that motive was painted onto me by another. But regardless of what solution is devised, I won't budge on the point of the Syndicate being an unnecessary evil that has no vindication for it's further existence as a part of Ul'dah's governing body. To be clear, I'm not even advocating for the deaths of those that make up the Syndicate. Nay, the Syndicate as an idea is rotting from the inside out and must be abolished for the good of all Ul'dahns.

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Do you actually have a solution? It's been known for a long time that the syndicate is bad and makes society worse, but like Cleretic said, both direct violence and direct legislative action to remove them from power have been tried and have not worked.

It's all very good to say that Ul'duhn capitalism is bad, but I don't know why you keep insisting on that point when most everyone already agrees with that.

Instead of a bloody purge can't the syndicate members die of natural causes and unfortunate accidents?

Assassins are a thing. And it I would love for Loloritos end to be a drug induced permanent coma. Of course the Sultana would pray for his swift recovery and reluctantly take stewardship of all his assets during his treatment.

The Syndicate may be an "unnecessary evil" as has been said, but is still the lesser one... there will always be someone to fill their shoes if they are taken out of the picture, and the new ones are always worse than the previous generation. The Syndicate are a legalized government body and even tought they are indeed corrupt, they still needs to operate somewhat inside the law, with the other members and the Sultana keeping each member in check if they go too far like Teledji Adeledji... They also have the best interests of Ul'dah in mind, since a rich Uldah is a rich Syndicate. You remove them from the picture and\or criminalize them and a new criminal organization will replace it instantly, one which won't have any qualm about bleeding completely dry the city without a tought.

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Originally Posted by Luizgazen

You remove them from the picture and\or criminalize them and a new criminal organization will replace it instantly, one which won't have any qualm about bleeding completely dry the city without a tought.

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I like to compare the Syndicate to the Thieves Guild in Ankh-Morpork. Criminality has now been licensed, taxed and officially in charge of policing themselves. Unfortunately, the Sultanate is not a Patrician like Lord Vetinari.

When all is said and done, though, Lord Lolorito is still paying off his debt to the Warrior of Light.