Astrologian buffs confirmed

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

IMO, Astro doesn't need more healing potency.

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I agree with everything else you said, and I WISH I could agree with this, but the ugly truth is that ASTs are going to get placed in parties with generally crap players, the same as any other healer will.

When that happens, the cards aren't going to do a thing to save them in situations when serious emergency healing is needed and the AST just won't have the tools to do that.

Again, if the party is competent, ASTs can heal anything pre-savage without issue, but so can any of the healers and I've been able to do some pretty beefy DPS as a SCH in Alex, thanks to SCH's amazing mana regen and the fact that you can spec to have six friggin' dots (both miasmas, both bios, Aero and Shadowflare). There's no way I could pump out damage like that as an AST, and especially not without going OOM like crazy...

I already made this post on Reddit, but I figured I would make it here too:

The really annoying thing is that we supposedly have less healing as a trade-off for having more support/utility, yet we are inferior in that regard as well. Scholars can provide more dps for the group by pressing one button on cooldown than we can even when we get perfectly lucky with RNG. Then they also have Sacred Soil which is absolutely superior to Nocturnal CU. White Mages get Asylum, which is better than Diurnal CU if only because of the fact they can place it and not have to channel it. They also have Assize which is great MP gain plus high damage or healing for free.

When you really compare it, the other healers have more, and better, tools for healing as well as utility. More so in a particular category for each; White Mage and Scholar respectively.

If I am supposed to have reduced healing because of support, but my support is still inferior, then where the fuck is my better healing/support ability?

There are some major changes that need to be made, the ones that stand out the most to me are:

Lightspeed: remove the potency penalty altogether and make the buff affect both cast and recast time.

Collective Unconscious: Make it work like both Asylum and Assize; keep mechanics consistent, especially on abilities that are obviously mimics of an existing ability. In either stance, we should be able to drop it like SS or Asylum and keep doing our job while it is up.

Stances: I personally think we should be able to switch stances in combat, even if with a minor cooldown. You don't design a hybrid of A and B within the same role, make it weaker at both A and B, but then force it only be one or the other a time. You might as well just take the original A or B then, instead of the weaker imitation. Something like a 10-15 second cooldown could be appropriate.

Cards: First, the cards just need a flat increase to effectiveness; even at their best, the gain is minor for the party. To that end, all cards should have a base 30 second duration. Also, all cards should be AoE baseline, without the loss in potency. Change Royal Road to simply draw an additional card that you can apply and have the cooldown start on skill use rather than card use. Then reduce the cooldown of Shuffle to 60 seconds; make spread usable outside of combat.

The changes to the cards would make them far more consistent and worthwhile, but would keep the skill element. Every "round" of draw, you can get an additional card with RR, do you shuffle that and maybe get a different buff that you use to overwrite the draw card because it is better? If it is the same, you can wait and then use it to "extend" the buff; Spread it and keep that for later? Or do you spread the Royal Road? Maybe you spread the draw card to see what you get from Royal Road first? This keeps an element of decision making that will separate good Astrologians from bad ones while making sure that the buffs are actually worth the reduced healing effectiveness.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

...Except when they have to decide whether or not to spam AoE abilities which they risk burning their TP out otherwise.

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This makes no sense. Spire has an icon. You do not need to be on party chat for Spire/Ewer. I have no idea why you insist you do. You do not. It is no different than the DRG noticing the MCH TP icon and can now spam. He has Spire instead.

Your points are presented in a very one-sided manner. You have not pointed out how a TP refresh avoids the same downsides of 'if they don't need TP.' RNG still exists. Spire might not help when hitting bottom, but when does that ever realistically happen in content? Especially when 'getting low' in the first place was something that apparently doesn't happen and that's why Spire is totally bad. You are exchanging different pros for other cons. That is not 'more versatile,' that is exchanging pros for other cons.

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Originally Posted by Rahaya

This makes no sense. Spire has an icon. You do not need to be on party chat for Spire/Ewer. I have no idea why you insist you do. You do not. It is no different than the DRG noticing the MCH TP icon and can now spam. He has Spire instead.

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So you've NEVER been in a tense enough fight where you're dodging tons of AoE or been spamming heals like mad to the point where you may have not noticed a buff being thrown on you, ever? Seriously?

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Your points are presented in a very one-sided manner. You have not pointed out how a TP refresh avoids the same downsides of 'if they don't need TP.'

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I actually specifically stated earlier that it doesn't, but that this and the person dying a moment after the buff is cast are the only two remaining situations where the buff won't be useful, and it's equally useless to the current cost reduction buff because a player standing there doing nothing with full TP isn't going to benefit from either one, no.

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Spire might not help when hitting bottom, but when does that ever realistically happen in content?

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Yes, RNG still exists, and this happened to my tank last night in Alex and she was begging for TP.

If you draw a spire before they go out of TP, great! If you only draw it after they go out of TP, well shit...

Again, it's all about making the buffs useful in the maximum number of situations.

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Especially when 'getting low' in the first place was something that apparently doesn't happen and that's why Spire is totally bad. You are exchanging different pros for other cons. That is not 'more versatile,' that is exchanging pros for other cons.

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Not sure what you mean, here...

If the card restores a percentage of a player's TP over 20 seconds, it'll be useful in every single circumstance that the cost reduction is useful, plus THESE (where reduction would be worthless):

-The player is missing TP but stunned or otherwise unable to use their abilities (like no target to hit at that moment), but they will still benefit from the restored TP after the buff runs out
-The player has run out of TP and will benefit from having their TP restored since they have none to spend
-The player doesn't notice that they have the buff on them for whatever reason but they will still benefit from the extra TP when they next look at their bar and see they have more leeway

Can you name an example where the reduction is superior to the restoration?

People must stop these
"cards are fine"
"AST healing potency is fine"
"AST is fine"
Its fine but its DEFINITELY NOT GOOD, do you see people calling WHM or SCH "fine healers"? They are GOOD healers, AST needs some adjustments or else it will be discarded in raids and future hard high level stuff.
As a AST player i can say, i would prefer a WHM+SCH in a raid over AST+Something
The heals are weak(I can't stand those 380,290 potencies, why not 400,300 like cure/physick and medica? WHY?), we don't have any healing buff such as Divine seal or Fey illumination, the cards are not THAT reliable, MP runs out like water in the desert and we don't have that much MP recovery.
I'm saying this because i LOVE the job, but it needs some more work and not just me but a LOT of players want it to be better.

Putting aside for a moment the ongoing debate about Spire and how to make it more useful more of the time, the biggest miscommunication I perceive around here is that everyone can mean something slightly different when they evaluate AST.

- We have players who don't understand why there is so much bitching when they are clearly able to complete all content on any healer class, including AST. Some of these players discount valid criticisms of the Job because they don't fully account for their own high skill level helping to compensate for shortcomings in the design.

- Then we also have players who may be newer to healing in FFXIV and find AST unusually challenging for little reward because they are still shaky on the fundamentals, themselves. It's easy to discount their opinions because they come partly from a general lack of experience and skill.

- On top of that, consider players who may actually be rather skilled, but who for whatever reason often find themselves playing with unskilled company. Constantly attempting to save other players from a string of their own dumb mistakes is trying for any healer, but especially for the AST, who lacks the selection of powerful healing CDs and instantaneous burst AoE healing afforded both WHM and SCH. Naturally they are going to vent that AST is lacking since they can handle a similar level of idiocy on their WHM and/or SCH with a lot less stress.

In short, it's important to consider that everyone is coming from a slightly different place when they offer criticism, suggestions, or even assertions that AST is fine.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

So you've NEVER been in a tense enough fight where you're dodging tons of AoE or been spamming heals like mad to the point where you may have not noticed a buff being thrown on you, ever? Seriously?

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I am not saying the buff can't be missed. I'm saying that does not matter. They do not need to do anything special, at all with the card on them as is. I've been on the receiving end as a NIN. I notice when I don't have to Invigorate when I would have otherwise, and when I was low and was able to stretch it out keeping up my normal rotation rather than cutting back on the Mutilate.

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I actually specifically stated earlier that it doesn't, but that this and the person dying a moment after the buff is cast are the only two remaining situations where the buff won't be useful, and it's equally useless to the current cost reduction buff because a player standing there doing nothing with full TP isn't going to benefit from either one, no.

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Ah, you had put it in the bullet point list for why Spire as a reduction was bad, and then went on to say 'Making the card a refresh fixes all these issues.' That implies the very opposite.

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Yes, RNG still exists, and this happened to my tank last night in Alex and she was begging for TP.

If you draw a spire before they go out of TP, great! If you only draw it after they go out of TP, well shit...

Again, it's all about making the buffs useful in the maximum number of situations.

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And if you draw the refresh mid fight, great! If you draw it on pull, it's just as useless as an immediate Goad is. The reduction applies to every move used after, while the refresh is in danger of wasting ticks on overgiving. Again, exchanging one pro for another.

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Not sure what you mean, here...

If the card restores a percentage of a player's TP over 20 seconds, it'll be useful in every single circumstance that the cost reduction is useful, plus THESE (where reduction would be worthless):

-The player is missing TP but stunned or otherwise unable to use their abilities (like no target to hit at that moment), but they will still benefit from the restored TP after the buff runs out
-The player has run out of TP and will benefit from having their TP restored since they have none to spend
-The player doesn't notice that they have the buff on them for whatever reason but they will still benefit from the extra TP when they next look at their bar and see they have more leeway

Can you name an example where the reduction is superior to the restoration?

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Skillspeed. A refresh by its very nature is a finite amount of TP given and at a flat rate unaffected by skillspeed. The reduction, on the other hand, applies to every action instead making it impossible to 'run ahead' of the benefit. That is a concern as we start gearing up, especially the skillspeed classes. Your last bullet point is also superfluous. Spire reduction grants more leeway regardless of if they notice the buff or not, the sole restriction is that they are using TP. We have 15 seconds to apply the card, which means we can choose when to use it after it is drawn for maximum effect. It also gives more the greater total cost of the action. A flat 20TP per tick on the refresh is outstripped by any action costing 120 TP and up making it more useful for AOE. I chose 20 because that is the equivalent of untraited Goad.

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Originally Posted by Rahaya

I am not saying the buff can't be missed. I'm saying that does not matter.

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And I'm saying that you're mistaken.

Tanks will be more likely to burn extra TP to ensure they have aggro if they know they have a 20% reduction, DPS will be more likely to AoE recklessly and even on AST, I'm KNOW I'm more likely to fire off spells at the risk of overhealing if I know I'm saving 20% per cast.

You've honestly never Ewered yourself and then proceeded to refresh your AoE HoT specifically because you knew you were saving MP at the time? (Do you actually play AST? I only see 60 arcanist and no AST in your profile...)

Just HAVING the extra T/MP is worlds better than having a 20 second window in which you save T/MP.

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And if you draw the refresh mid fight, great! If you draw it on pull, it's just as useless as an immediate Goad is. The reduction applies to every move used after, while the refresh is in danger of wasting ticks on overgiving. Again, exchanging one pro for another.

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Um, no, the refresh will still be ticking as they're USING T/MP. Again, refresh is superior because it fills missing resources regardless of whether or not you're using them at the time.

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Skillspeed. A refresh by its very nature is a finite amount of TP given and at a flat rate unaffected by skillspeed.

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I'll give you that one, but that's one. :p

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Your last bullet point is also superfluous. Spire reduction grants more leeway regardless of if they notice the buff or not

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Refer to the first point of this post.

T/MP restored to your resource pool over 20 seconds >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20 seconds in which you spend less T/MP.

After the buff expires, you no longer receive any benefit for it in its current incarnation. If it refreshed instead, you would continue to benefit from it until you had spent the extra T/MP it had given you, effectively giving you a larger window in which to benefit from the buff.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

And I'm saying that you're mistaken.

Tanks will be more likely to burn extra TP to ensure they have aggro if they know they have a 20% reduction, DPS will be more likely to AoE recklessly and even on AST, I'm KNOW I'm more likely to fire off spells at the risk of overhealing if I know I'm saving 20% per cast.

You've honestly never Ewered yourself and then proceeded to refresh your AoE HoT specifically because you knew you were saving MP at the time? (Do you actually play AST? I only see 60 arcanist and no AST in your profile...)

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We are coming at this from two different angles. You are talking about achieving maximum effect from the card here. I am talking about what is required to see appreciable benefit from the card. The TP refresh is under the exact same onus you are talking about.If I Goad the WAR, and he doesn't use that opportunity to Overpower more, he is missing out on the maximum gain, but gets TP back regardless. Spire works the same. If I give him a Spire, and he doesn't Overpower, he is still getting 20% off his Maim combo regardless.

Ironically, Overpower would see greater return assuming 20TP a tick from the refresh. And yes, I do play AST. Feel free to look Y'chala Tamh up on Lodestone. Nothing to hide here.

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Just HAVING the extra T/MP is worlds better than having a 20 second window in which you save T/MP.

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Getting a 20% discount on a $100 dollar item has the same end result as buying it full price and getting a buck twenty afterwards. You feel it is 'worlds better' because you place more value on that particular niche where refresh works better. Both have pros and cons.

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Um, no, the refresh will still be ticking as they're USING T/MP. Again, refresh is superior because it fills missing resources regardless of whether or not you're using them at the time.

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Yes, it would. There is a reason I said 'overgiving' though. Either from an early draw in the fight or just after Invigorate is a situation where the target would receive less from refresh than a reduction on ability cost due to overflow.

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I'll give you that one, but that's one. :p

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Reduction is also front loaded. If I am low on TP, I can use that skill now because the 20% lowered the 'bar' for using it. Otherwise, I would be waiting on that refresh tick at the whims of server time (and will likely have altered my rotation lowering DPS already). Receiving a greater return on AoE than a flat refresh tick is three as you haven't rebutted that.

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After the buff expires, you no longer receive any benefit for it in its current incarnation. If it refreshed instead, you would continue to benefit from it until you had spent the extra T/MP it had given you, effectively giving you a larger window in which to benefit from the buff.

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Wrong. After the buff expires you would still have the 20% extra TP you didn't use. It is the exact same in that regard. I am not saying refresh is worse. I am saying that it is a side grade.

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Originally Posted by Rahaya

We are coming at this from two different angles. You are talking about achieving maximum effect from the card here. I am talking about what is required to see appreciable benefit from the card. The TP refresh is under the exact same onus you are talking about.If I Goad the WAR, and he doesn't use that opportunity to Overpower more, he is missing out on the maximum gain, but gets TP back regardless. Spire works the same. If I give him a Spire, and he doesn't Overpower, he is still getting 20% off his Maim combo regardless.

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No, I'm talking about making the cards more useful in the maximum number of situations because much of the AST's toolkit is the raw definition of "non-versatile".

Yes, he's still getting 20% off of his main combo. Is he doing all the AoEing he would be doing if he saw that he had the buff? Probably not because he doesn't want to run out of TP, and who can blame him?

And like I said, BEING an AST means you'll have plenty of chances to toss Ewer onto yourself, and if you don't take that chance to do things like refresh your aspected helios/benefic NOW instead of when it's going to cost more MP, you're literally doing it wrong.

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Getting a 20% discount on a $100 dollar item has the same end result as buying it full price and getting a buck twenty afterwards. You feel it is 'worlds better' because you place more value on that particular niche where refresh works better. Both have pros and cons.

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In this case, we're talking about a 20% off coupon expiring before you knew you had it. :p

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Yes, it would. There is a reason I said 'overgiving' though. Either from an early draw in the fight or just after Invigorate is a situation where the target would receive less from refresh than a reduction on ability cost due to overflow.

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Did you invent the notion in your head that the refresh amount would be less than the 20% and then argue it?

Once again, if you are free to use abilities for the entire 20 seconds, you get 8 abilities at 2.5 sec recast.

Since you keep using overpower as an example, 8 uses of overpower at 130 TP each is 1040 TP used, meaning you save a whopping 208 TP if you use an ability every single moment that you can, starting when the AST casts Spire on you.

10 TP/tick for 20 seconds would be right about on par AND would be safe from all of the aforementioned situations where a reduction would be worthless or have it's effects reduced. That's 1% per tick for 20 seconds, which would be great for MP as well (realistically, it could be .5% per tick and still be fine).

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Reduction is also front loaded. If I am low on TP, I can use that skill now because the 20% lowered the 'bar' for using it.

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That's actually completely backwards: yes, you'll be able to activate skills with less TP, but you're going to be sitting there, waiting for TP to tick before being able to activate the skills, meaning you're going to get WAY less than your 8 abilities off.

With the regen, you're going to get every single point of TP that's coming to you, regardless of whether or not you're able to spend it right then and there.

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Wrong. After the buff expires you would still have the 20% extra TP you didn't use. It is the exact same in that regard. I am not saying refresh is worse. I am saying that it is a side grade.

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It's the same if and ONLY if the player was able to freecast for the entire 20 seconds, getting all 8 abilities off, which is highly unlikely.

Once again, restoring helps in many more situations because it's T/MP that the player can benefit from even after the buff has expired, regardless of the reason they didn't get to spend it during the buff.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I agree with everything else you said, and I WISH I could agree with this, but the ugly truth is that ASTs are going to get placed in parties with generally crap players, the same as any other healer will.

When that happens, the cards aren't going to do a thing to save them in situations when serious emergency healing is needed and the AST just won't have the tools to do that.

ASTs can heal anything pre-savage without issue, but so can any of the healers and I've been able to do some pretty beefy DPS as a SCH in Alex, thanks to SCH's amazing mana regen and the fact that you can spec to have six friggin' dots (both miasmas, both bios, Aero and Shadowflare). There's no way I could pump out damage like that as an AST, and especially not without going OOM like crazy...

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Astrologian heals are fine. Beyond fine they are on par with scholar and white mage. white mage and scholar has stronger efficiency overall which imo suggests that the mana strength of scholar and white mage might be a bit too much. Astro mana efficiency is fine as well unless you think you need to top everyone off 1 second after they take damage then yes you will have mana issues. If they want to raise astro efficiency to the other two healers then enhance Ben 2 buff needs to be 50% mana reduction or better on proc cast.

Scholars being able to assist and supply dps is fine. I enjoy astro's as is and the buffs to spread/shuffle and tweaks to our cooldowns is most we need.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Astrologian heals are fine. Beyond fine they are on par with scholar and white mage.

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After this point you go on to describe how AST healing potential isn't on par with that of SCH and WHM. I don't understand; which is it?

Or are you trying to suggest that AST represents the ideal healing strength and that SCH and WHM should be toned down for the greater good?

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Astrologian heals are fine. Beyond fine they are on par with scholar and white mage. white mage and scholar has stronger efficiency overall which imo suggests that the mana strength of scholar and white mage might be a bit too much. Astro mana efficiency is fine as well unless you think you need to top everyone off 1 second after they take damage then yes you will have mana issues. If they want to raise astro efficiency to the other two healers then enhance Ben 2 buff needs to be 50% mana reduction or better on proc cast.

Scholars being able to assist and supply dps is fine. I enjoy astro's as is and the buffs to spread/shuffle and tweaks to our cooldowns is most we need.

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I'm willing to wait and see what they do for the cards, but I still think it's emergency power that needs to be brought up a bit.

Right now, it's HORRIBLE compared to the other two. I think just removing the debuff from Lightspeed would be a good start because I hesitate to hit it because I'm nerfing myself by doing so...

Also, adding a 50% reduced mana cost to spells while in LS wouldn't hurt, either...

Keep in mind that the emergency healing of SCH and WHM will either be put to the test in Savage or Savage will be a joke, meaning that ASTs are going to feel the pinch VERY hard...

I've been thinking for a while what I'd like different for ast. As far as cards go. Give a straight +10 seconds and i dont need effects or card potency changed. Refresh some ast mp each draw. (Very small ), aoe royal road -25% instead of 50. and let spread be used outside battle. I believe that last one was stated already. That's all I need from cards.

My other real issues are that nocturnal stance Is lame. And that's because of several issues such as effects not stacking which diurnal has less of an issue with.

Lastly our channeling shield..... either raise the percents if we have to channel or let us move around inside and do other stuff. This is a bad down step on both sides. Hell if we have to channel give it a cool effect like hp bubble for pt members that step in or place random card effects on everyone.

Doesn't exactly help that we can't even use cross-class abilities the other two healers have as well. With the exception of one spell, we have no emergency heals, be it ST or AOE. We have no healing increasing CDs, with the exception of Lightspeed which DECREASES potency, not only by far too much, but will drop your mana to nothingness. Which brings me to another point, there is no justification for SCH/WHM having such an easier time with MP than an AST, given what they offer compared to us. The only reason would be the capability to spear/ewer yourself, something that shouldn't be necessary, given you would then not be supporting your party, but struggling to support yourself and your mana. Yes, maybe your mana isn't horrible, and maybe you've learned not to throw it all away needlessly like the other two healers can, but that doesn't mean that it's fine the way it is.

And as it's been said, I'll wait to see what changes they make, as I because I honestly thing AST's will be seeing a lot of small buffs from here until the end of this expansion.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

After this point you go on to describe how AST healing potential isn't on par with that of SCH and WHM. I don't understand; which is it?

Or are you trying to suggest that AST represents the ideal healing strength and that SCH and WHM should be toned down for the greater good?

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Hard to talk your point when you take the statement out of context. I stated I feel that maybe white mage and scholar mana replenishing abilities are a bit strong. Then I state that astrologian mana regen is fine as it is but if they want to buff the mana efficiency of astro's to be on par with the other two healers then altering benefic II instant cast buff to let it cost 50% less mana is a decent start. My true beef with the job is giving astro the ability to mimic the scholar and white mage when the current game design lets you swap between white mage and scholar seemlessly anyhow which throws a curveball at what made the Astrologian unique.

I wish they would seperate the ability to gear up both white mage and scholar at the same time. That would make astrologian itleast appear viable as a go between for both roles as if you wanted the same versatility as the astro you would be forced to gear up one job then use a weaker tier of gear for your alt healer job. Being able to gear up both white mage and scholar with shared gear minus a weapon needs to be removed. Jobs should not share gear.

If you call using Spear and Ewer on yourself constantly MP efficent. You probably don't DPS in any encounters because AST are running dry pretty fast.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Hard to talk your point when you take the statement out of context. I stated I feel that maybe white mage and scholar mana replenishing abilities are a bit strong. Then I state that astrologian mana regen is fine as it is but if they want to buff the mana efficiency of astro's to be on par with the other two healers then altering benefic II instant cast buff to let it cost 50% less mana is a decent start. My true beef with the job is giving astro the ability to mimic the scholar and white mage when the current game design lets you swap between white mage and scholar seemlessly anyhow which throws a curveball at what made the Astrologian unique.

I wish they would seperate the ability to gear up both white mage and scholar at the same time. That would make astrologian itleast appear viable as a go between for both roles as if you wanted the same versatility as the astro you would be forced to gear up one job then use a weaker tier of gear for your alt healer job. Being able to gear up both white mage and scholar with shared gear minus a weapon needs to be removed. Jobs should not share gear.

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I didn't take your statement very far out of context (if at all) considering that the entirety of your post is directly above mine and you do indeed call AST healing "on par" with that of WHM and SCH and follow up with reasons why the latter are stronger. You can't claim that AST is "more than fine" or "on par" when you yourself cite deficiencies.

Besides, mana regeneration is just one aspect of healing and not even the biggest beef with AST. I don't see what AST has that makes up for its obvious lack of healing cooldowns, and it's pretty impossible to argue that AST is on par with the other Jobs in its role as far as healing goes when it falls short in direct comparison.

I used to suggest that, if the cards were made more potent, AST could get by on its ability to end phases faster.

Now, however, I've changed my tune and I feel like AST needs to be at 90% of SCH/WHM's 100% emergency healing power.

In the end, we're HEALERS. Our job is to keep the group alive, and no amount of card buffs that moderately help with DPS are going to fix that.

RichardButte, I agree. I've been saying that for a bit lately. It might be fair to argue that what it lacks in healing it makes up in buffs but in the end we are a HEALING class and if we can't keep up with the heals in hard content then what's the point? Dead DPS do no DPS.

Also, it is weird that Bole is more of a mana card for you than anything else. You can't rely on it for big hits unless you hold it and otherwise it is less damage taken and thus less healing needed. It's sad that that might be its biggest draw badumtsss

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I didn't take your statement very far out of context (if at all) considering that the entirety of your post is directly above mine and you do indeed call AST healing "on par" with that of WHM and SCH and follow up with reasons why the latter are stronger. You can't claim that AST is "more than fine" or "on par" when you yourself cite deficiencies.

Besides, mana regeneration is just one aspect of healing and not even the biggest beef with AST. I don't see what AST has that makes up for its obvious lack of healing cooldowns, and it's pretty impossible to argue that AST is on par with the other Jobs in its role as far as healing goes when it falls short in direct comparison.

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I stated that i felt that white and scholar mana replenishing abilities may be a tad strong that astro was just right. Then I stated that if astro was to be brought up to the level of the other two the benefic II buff being cheaper or even free would be a big step to helping which you did leave out. Astro mana issues are indeed not the biggest issue and the cooldowns are being change so the point will be ancient history tomorrow if the buffs are worthwhile. And that statement was directed at Richard which I thought was in my original quote.

And yes Astro healing is more then fine. It is a 20 potency difference not counting our stance buffs.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I used to suggest that, if the cards were made more potent, AST could get by on its ability to end phases faster.

Now, however, I've changed my tune and I feel like AST needs to be at 90% of SCH/WHM's 100% emergency healing power.

In the end, we're HEALERS. Our job is to keep the group alive, and no amount of card buffs that moderately help with DPS are going to fix that.

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I do want to say that I agree with your assessment. When discussing Astrologian in comparison to White Mage and Scholar there has been a frequent comparison made to Bard and Machinist and how they compare to other DPS jobs. Supposedly the sub par healing capabilities of the Astrologian are justified due to their ability to buff and enhance the party. However that is something I don't agreed with for the simple reason that while a Bard or Machinist may have a lower personal DPS output their utility is primary geared towards boosting the DPS of the party as a whole to the point that it becomes a net gain. The buffs of the Astrologian serve a similar primary function in boosting the DPS output of the group and while in a roundabout way that helps to reduce the amount of healing required for an encounter I see their buffs as a stronger justification for making their personal DPS weaker, not their healing. If their cards were better geared towards defensive and healing utility it would be a different story, but even when looking at Bole, on average you aren't going to see that card any more often than another healer is able to use Eye for an Eye. Astrologian doesn't have any special utility to support their co-healer any more so than a White Mage or Scholar which means they should be just as capable as those jobs at fulfilling their role as a healer.

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

I do want to say that I agree with your assessment. When discussing Astrologian in comparison to White Mage and Scholar there has been a frequent comparison made to Bard and Machinist and how they compare to other DPS jobs. Supposedly the sub par healing capabilities of the Astrologian are justified due to their ability to buff and enhance the party. However that is something I don't agreed with for the simple reason that while a Bard or Machinist may have a lower personal DPS output their utility is primary geared towards boosting the DPS of the party as a whole to the point that it becomes a net gain. The buffs of the Astrologian serve a similar primary function in boosting the DPS output of the group and while in a roundabout way that helps to reduce the amount of healing required for an encounter I see their buffs as a stronger justification for making their personal DPS weaker, not their healing. If their cards were better geared towards defensive and healing utility it would be a different story, but even when looking at Bole, on average you aren't going to see that card any more often than another healer is able to use Eye for an Eye. Astrologian doesn't have any special utility to support their co-healer any more so than a White Mage or Scholar which means they should be just as capable as those jobs at fulfilling their role as a healer.

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And they are not equipped despite every fight in the game being healed with an astrologian? I have yet to see anyone parse numbers of healing in a fight with equal gear so the concept is more of a mindset that astrologians are weak because people say they are. How is a 20 potency difference in healing more then a 5% difference in strength in the overall comparison of Ben I/II against white cure I/II going to break an Astrologian?

On the contrary there are more astrologians on my server right now then scholars. By 40 people so the job is not as in dire straights as alot of people seem to place them. Summoners at the lowest level pre 3.0 you could sometimes only see 20-30 on at peak hours with every other job being 200 on search results so Astrologians are far from weak.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

And they are not equipped despite every fight in the game being healed with an astrologian? I have yet to see anyone parse numbers of healing in a fight with equal gear so the concept is more of a mindset that astrologians are weak because people say they are. How is a 20 potency difference in healing more then a 5% difference in strength in the overall comparison of Ben I/II against white cure I/II going to break an Astrologian?

On the contrary there are more astrologians on my server right now then scholars. By 40 people so the job is not as in dire straights as alot of people seem to place them. Summoners at the lowest level pre 3.0 you could sometimes only see 20-30 on at peak hours with every other job being 200 on search results so Astrologians are far from weak.

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The potency of heals is not the problem; it's the distinct lack of healing CDs, paired with limited MP regeneration compared to WHM/SCH. There aren't any true "end game" fights at the moment, either; outside of Bismark EX, most fights require relatively little healing unless mechanics aren't being handled properly. AST having healed through current content isn't indicative of it's peak performance, nor any healers, really.

Also, the popularity of a job is not indicative of it's performance; that's a very poor correlation.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

And they are not equipped despite every fight in the game being healed with an astrologian?

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No one has argued that they can't be healed with an AST (or they're wrong if they have). The problem is that AST is hugely dependent on the group being good at avoiding avoidable damage, and that doesn't describe every DF group, not by a longshot.

And furthermore, the lack of emergency healing options is going to haunt AST in savage mode, either that or Savage will be a joke. It literally can't be both.

If the emergency options of WHM/SCH aren't necessary, then Savage will be cake for groups bringing WHM/SCH. If they are, then ASTs are going to be in a world of hurt.

Noc aspect is quite a potent emergency ability that few talk about. Near 500 potency instant cast is powerful for emergencies. Synastry is as well. Astro is getting light speed change and I think the two celestial cool downs will allow combat stance changes as well. Regeneration plus shields at once would be our emergency. Plus the 40 second near 8k heal at low health is a strong tool kit.

I do not understand the idea that AST are weak when it comes to Emergency Healing. Essential Dignity is really strong on a low HP target (which is valid when the topic is emergencies), instant and on a 40 second CD. Like the other healers, it has access to Swiftcast (and unlike on my SCH who always uses it for Shadowflare, SC should be up on an AST when the emergency happens). AND their aspected spell is Instant, with the Noct version obviously better for an emergency situation. All combined that's a lot of fast healing.

Certainly doesn't seem inferior to my SCH's Lustrate > Adlo > Emerg TActics > Adlo

I do believe Lightspeed should be buffed, but just because it's a crappy skill. But as is, AST are just fine in terms of emergency healing. The card system is meh, and they definitely seem to run into mana issues easier than the other healers - so I am not saying the job is in a great spot. I just don't really see why people think emergency healing is the issue.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

I do not understand the idea that AST are weak when it comes to Emergency Healing.

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Part of it is that emergencies aren't always single-target situations. Essential Dignity is certainly pretty potent; however, in situations where you need a lot of burst healing to get someone back to full, it pales in comparison to Lustrate (which has the potential for 3-6 large heals in the span of a few seconds), or Tetragrammaton and Benediction. SCH and WHM have more tools to fall back on in emergency situations, as well. WHM can use Divine Seal to significantly up their healing potency or Presence of Mind to get a number of heals out faster (both of which function with both single-target and AoE heals), whereas SCH has Emergency Tactics, Rouse, and potentially Fey Illumination (though most of the time they'll probably be using Selene these days).

In short, the issue becomes that when there is damage outside of the expected damage, AST has fewer tools with which to respond to it. Once Essential Dignity is on cooldown, the AST has no options outside of Swiftcast, whereas the other healers have Swiftcast, a couple emergency cooldowns, and more options for oGCD heals.

I really thing you are exaggerating the SCH - there is no such thing as more than 3 lustrates (except at the very start of the fight when there is no emergency), and even 3 is pretty rare - those stacks get used, you never make it to Aetherflow's recasts with 3 stacks still. Even an emergency it's not usually more than 1 Lustrate that goes out on a single target. Also Emergency Tactics doesn't really add any potency, it just Allows for 2 consecutive Adlo's on the same target whereas in 2.x that 2nd one would be a lower potency Physick.

Synastry allows an AST to heal 2 targets as once (basically the same as on a SCH is manually embracing a 2nd target), they still have AOE heals - and small things like using Time Dilation to extend hots to free up capacity to send heals elsewhere.

Anyway this may be moot, servers going down in 15 mins, and when they come up, there are prolly gonna be some AST changes ^.^

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Originally Posted by Sidra

I really thing you are exaggerating the SCH - there is no such thing as more than 3 lustrates (except at the very start of the fight when there is no emergency), and even 3 is pretty rare - those stacks get used, you never make it to Aetherflow's recasts with 3 stacks still.

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Sure you do. SCH was my main for a long time and depending on group composition and the skill of players involved, I would frequently sit on them to help in recovering from emergency situations. Will you sit on them on farm content or at the highest level of play? Probably not, but the *potential* is there (which is all I said--"potentially 3-6"). Even just the potential for 3 of them is far greater burst healing than AST has access to.

Synastry is fairly strong in situations where two targets are taking damage, that much is true. It's not the best emergency skill but it can, in a pinch, offer some emergency healing if only two targets are getting hit.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

there is no such thing as more than 3 lustrates (except at the very start of the fight when there is no emergency),

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Hate to chime in but, Dissipation, scholar's new 60 move, gives them 3 aetherflow stacks. So now it's actually possible to use lustrate up to NINE times in short succession.

So they weren't exaggerating, if anything they were downplaying it. >.> heh

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Hate to chime in but, Dissipation, scholar's new 60 move, gives them 3 aetherflow stacks. So now it's actually possible to use lustrate up to NINE times in short succession.

So they weren't exaggerating, if anything they were downplaying it. >.> heh

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Oh, I deliberately did that. I don't have SCH at 60 yet (pending AST buffs, I will likely soon), but I'm pretty sure there's almost no situation where you'd be better off losing your faerie for 30 seconds in exchange for 3 more Lustrates.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Oh, I deliberately did that. I don't have SCH at 60 yet (pending AST buffs, I will likely soon), but I'm pretty sure there's almost no situation where you'd be better off losing your faerie for 30 seconds in exchange for 3 more Lustrates.

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I've had maybe two encounters where I've actually had to use it - essentially, the extremely rare situation where it's a matter of 'oh sweet lord multiple people are about to die, I'm out of Aetherflow, and Succor won't cut it.'