The Ninja Superthread

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Originally Posted by PenutButter

stuff

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My mudras dont cut into my GCD by any significant margin; I get only a slight delay doing 3 step mudras. I'll agree that with latency it cuts into it, but it's still a DPS increase on the GCD per point, like it is for everyone else ;-;

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Originally Posted by Odowla

My mudras dont cut into my GCD by any significant margin; I get only a slight delay doing 3 step mudras. I'll agree that with latency it cuts into it, but it's still a DPS increase on the GCD per point, like it is for everyone else ;-;

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Skill speed is a pretty garbage stat for Ninja. Not to mention it loses value everytime you are unable to chain an attack.

I think both are right, you want a certain amount of SS, any more than that amount and it is probably better to start stacking more of the better stats.

Does anyone have any tips for dps? I do about 485 average on a dummy with i115 weapon, but i usually finish on about 400 or very slightly less in fcob. Aside from improving ping (which is pretty much impossible for me right now) what can i do? I use BP.

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Originally Posted by FyrmurlFloerasksyn

Does anyone have any tips for dps? I do about 485 average on a dummy with i115 weapon, but i usually finish on about 400 or very slightly less in fcob. Aside from improving ping (which is pretty much impossible for me right now) what can i do? I use BP.

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I'd like to echo this question too.

This is my current gear set up if it helps: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/P74L

This week's T10 clear I did about 380 - 390 DPS. I've gone up to P3 in T11 last night, but I was averaging about 380 DPS roughly as well.

Also, what should my next Poetics purchase be? Leaning towards the pants, since the reason I'm not using the Gloam pants is because I have +41 accuracy from my chest piece.

lucrezia's ninja doing 625 with i130 wep, neat

http://a.pomf.se/wsakcx.png

wonder if he could push 650 with 135 daggers now, with another nin maybe

That's absolutely insane... My best bet would be the Warrior was just doing the -slashing% debuffs after he/she generated enough aggro to do so and the NIN was doing nothing but AE spamming and applying DoTs.

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Originally Posted by juniglee

I'd like to echo this question too.

This is my current gear set up if it helps: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/P74L

This week's T10 clear I did about 380 - 390 DPS. I've gone up to P3 in T11 last night, but I was averaging about 380 DPS roughly as well.

Also, what should my next Poetics purchase be? Leaning towards the pants, since the reason I'm not using the Gloam pants is because I have +41 accuracy from my chest piece.

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Personally, I'm saving up for poetics weapon (will have about 1080 when i cap this week) because supposedly WoD darkness drops upgrade mats, so (hopefully) it drops the encrypted tomestone.

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Originally Posted by juniglee

I'd like to echo this question too.

This is my current gear set up if it helps: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/P74L

This week's T10 clear I did about 380 - 390 DPS. I've gone up to P3 in T11 last night, but I was averaging about 380 DPS roughly as well.

Also, what should my next Poetics purchase be? Leaning towards the pants, since the reason I'm not using the Gloam pants is because I have +41 accuracy from my chest piece.

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Seems low for your gear, but not terribly much (especially if you're getting a lot of charges in t10). I'd expect maybe 40-50 dps more once you get really comfortable with the fight and are doing everything right. Are you having to do your own Dancing Edge? That sucks a good 10-20 dps away from you. Are you using pots? What opener are you using? Do you keep dpsing the boss during charges (when you're not the one targeting)? Using shukuchi to move between the add pairs?

Lots of factors could cause lower dps.
I highly recommend you get the pants, they're probably the single best poetics item for NIN. I'd do the math and see exactly how much dex you gain from doing an upgrade, then dividing the amount of poetics it costs by that. Ie, if the weapon is an ~11 dex upgrade (after moving accuracy gear around and whatnot) then it's an effective 118.18 poetics for every dexterity you get. If the pants give you 8 dex overall, then you're only spending 103.125 poetics per dexterity and thus it's a more efficient use of your poetics even if it isn't as big a jump. Rather than talk theoreticals, assuming a skillspeed weight of .2 then getting the weapon and switching to the sol gloves and ramuh ring would gain you 14.602 dex (89.03 poetics/dex), while the pants would give you 7.856 dex (105.02 poetics/dex).

SO... for you holding out for the weapon would be better in theory, but of course you'd have to down T11 first (although maybe tomestones will be available from World of Darkness on tuesday).

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Originally Posted by Dervy

That's absolutely insane... My best bet would be the Warrior was just doing the -slashing% debuffs after he/she generated enough aggro to do so and the NIN was doing nothing but AE spamming and applying DoTs.

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Probably that + Kassatsu Doton on a set of the adds, then Katon when its back up - essentially - being as effecient as possible.

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Originally Posted by Best-MNK-NA

Seems low for your gear, but not terribly much (especially if you're getting a lot of charges in t10). I'd expect maybe 40-50 dps more once you get really comfortable with the fight and are doing everything right. Are you having to do your own Dancing Edge? That sucks a good 10-20 dps away from you. Are you using pots? What opener are you using? Do you keep dpsing the boss during charges (when you're not the one targeting)? Using shukuchi to move between the add pairs?

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Thanks for the feedback!

I got just 1 Charge the whole fight. I do use HQ Poison Pots at the end of Phase 2, end of Phase 4, and once more when the cooldown is refreshed again in Phase 5.

I open with Dancing Edge -> Shadow Fang -> Mutilate -> Aeolian Edge in that order. Depending on when my Ninjutsu comes off cooldown, I use Suiton -> TA immediately, followed by B4B + IR + AE combo, and if I have it up, Kassatsu Raiton. I typically never use anything other than Raiton after I use Kassatsu. I try to save Suiton -> TA for until I have both B4B + IR up at least.

I use Raiton during adds phase. I should probably start using Shukuchi during adds phase to get from one end to the other too. We did hit the soft enrage on our clear.

In terms of DPS order, this week's T10 clear my MNK was doing 425, I was doing about 390, BLM was doing about 360, and BRD about 330. MNK is considerably more geared than I am though.

@juniglee: I meant xpots of dex. Those are huuuuge and will increase your dps by around 20 or more. You didn't say if you have a WAR to do Storm's Eye for you or not - if you don't that's, again, 10-20 dps lost.

Your big mistake is saving Suiton-> TA to line up with your buffs. You want TA to have as much uptime as possible. Your ninjutsu rotation should be Huton (prepull) -> Suiton (TA) -> Kassatsu Raiton -> Raiton/shuriken -> Huton -> Suiton (TA) -> Raiton/shuriken

and repeat from there. No matter what buffs are up or aren't up. Those you also want to use on cooldown every single time. That should increase your DPS immensely since you are losing out on a lot of potential time for your buffs if you're saving them to line up with Trick Attack (or vice versa).


Also, you should really insist on getting a good opener off. NIN dps is really tied to your opener going off well or else you'll end up significantly behind in DPS for quite a while before it evens out. I use a pull macro after I precast my Huton that times it perfectly so my ninjutsu comes off cooldown at the right place in my opener for Suiton. Timing it right allows me to get an extra raiton or shuriken off before the next huton which increases dps by a bit and lines up everything else down the road very well (especially since the second trick attack will naturally come up with B4B). I also force my raid to wait for Kassatsu to come back off cooldown before pulling (I'd insist on xpots too but they don't want to wait that long and they're not such a crucial ability). We're working on T13 and we just can't afford a completely substandard pull and hope to clear (think we'll get it this week finally).

I think an opener like the one I use (huton prepull, SE -> B4B+IR -> GS -> xpot -> DE -> suiton -> SE -> ta+kassatsu -> SF -> Raiton -> Mutilate -> mug -> SE -> Jugulate -> GS -> poison pot -> AE is the best, but the one Odo posted a few pages back is really solid too. The important thing is to: Get your buffs and debuffs up asap and then, while they're all stacked with Trick Attack up on the boss, apply your DoTs, do your kassatsu Raiton, and get an Aeolian Edge combo off if you can. I can't overstate how important getting a consistently solid opener is for your DPS.

Also, the numbers for your whole group are very low. MNK especially if s/he's considerably more geared than you - they should be pulling around 100 more dps, potentially. Honestly surprised you cleared with those numbers.

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Originally Posted by Best-MNK-NA

@juniglee: I meant xpots of dex. Those are huuuuge and will increase your dps by around 20 or more. You didn't say if you have a WAR to do Storm's Eye for you or not - if you don't that's, again, 10-20 dps lost.

Your big mistake is saving Suiton-> TA to line up with your buffs. You want TA to have as much uptime as possible. Your ninjutsu rotation should be Huton (prepull) -> Suiton (TA) -> Kassatsu Raiton -> Raiton/shuriken -> Huton -> Suiton (TA) -> Raiton/shuriken

and repeat from there. No matter what buffs are up or aren't up. Those you also want to use on cooldown every single time. That should increase your DPS immensely since you are losing out on a lot of potential time for your buffs if you're saving them to line up with Trick Attack (or vice versa).


Also, you should really insist on getting a good opener off. NIN dps is really tied to your opener going off well or else you'll end up significantly behind in DPS for quite a while before it evens out. I use a pull macro after I precast my Huton that times it perfectly so my ninjutsu comes off cooldown at the right place in my opener for Suiton. Timing it right allows me to get an extra raiton or shuriken off before the next huton which increases dps by a bit and lines up everything else down the road very well (especially since the second trick attack will naturally come up with B4B). I also force my raid to wait for Kassatsu to come back off cooldown before pulling (I'd insist on xpots too but they don't want to wait that long and they're not such a crucial ability). We're working on T13 and we just can't afford a completely substandard pull and hope to clear (think we'll get it this week finally).

I think an opener like the one I use (huton prepull, SE -> B4B+IR -> GS -> xpot -> DE -> suiton -> SE -> ta+kassatsu -> SF -> Raiton -> Mutilate -> mug -> SE -> Jugulate -> GS -> poison pot -> AE is the best, but the one Odo posted a few pages back is really solid too. The important thing is to: Get your buffs and debuffs up asap and then, while they're all stacked with Trick Attack up on the boss, apply your DoTs, do your kassatsu Raiton, and get an Aeolian Edge combo off if you can. I can't overstate how important getting a consistently solid opener is for your DPS.

Also, the numbers for your whole group are very low. MNK especially if s/he's considerably more geared than you - they should be pulling around 100 more dps, potentially. Honestly surprised you cleared with those numbers.

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Thanks for the advice. Back to the training room I go - both to work on rotation and opener. And perhaps get some X-Pots of DEX for myself (I can craft them without issue).

Yes, Warrior maintains Storm's Eye like 95% of the time.

At above at the start of the page there are quite a few really good rotations

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Originally Posted by Dervy

That's absolutely insane... My best bet would be the Warrior was just doing the -slashing% debuffs after he/she generated enough aggro to do so and the NIN was doing nothing but AE spamming and applying DoTs.

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I'm pretty sure he didn't AoE at all. Doton isn't going to push you up that high. I also saw this video while it was still on Alex's stream. I have yet to have a clean T10 run but I can get close to Chloro's numbers on T11, in similar if not worse gear (~30 DPS behind). I think a lot of it has to do with his connection/Ping. He can most likely get three-step mudras off with a lot less clipping. Comparing how I open to how he does he doesn't lose as much DPS whenever he refreshes huton as when I do. It is really hard to tell though without actually watching him, I think he has a niconico channel if anyone is subbed to that.

I think it is really good to note that he is BiS for i130 given that he has as much weighted dex as he possible can get.

generally you can translate 1s saved gcd time to 1.5 dps or so near bis gear level

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfwucJOTTsA would be an example of unrealistically fast mudras for most na players
http://www.twitch.tv/masakiii/b/611798268 @ 44:30 or 56:05 is where you see his mudra speed for huton. pretty normal speed for that type of instance (pvp/estate are a lot more responsive)

he parsed 618.8dps, 237k dmg in a 383s fight with 130 wep. close to around 21 ninjutsu possible (19 base+4 kassatsu raitons=23, minus two for fuma shurikens in add phase probably)

depending on how heavy you want to be with your mudra gcd clip estimations compared to their speed you can figure out the dps difference i guess. it's not as big of a deal as people make it out to be imo. getting even 5% increase from getting top tier speeds is a big stretch unless you have 200ms+ normally or regularly make cute bunnies

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

Bunnies

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I wrote a very long post out but it was deleted on accident because I clicked the back button.
To summarize :

Given he had 1 second on 3 step- mudras and .3 seconds on 2 Step-mudras above a NA player the dps gain for that encounter would have roughly been 10.7 DPS given he would get an additional 6-7 actions.


Also having almost no latency can effect other parts of a fight aswell.

you say given but your "givens" have no real measurement to them though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfwucJOTTsA still stands as the fastest speed i've seen, so using that as a base (a 30 fps video)

391 skill speed total (19 belt, 25 gloves, 6 bandana)=2.08gcd. frames to cycle a gcd=63; 1f=0.033s.

first suiton - 26f clipped = 0.858s
second suiton - 23f clipped = 0.759s
first raiton - 11f clipped = 0.363s
second raiton - 10f clipped = 0.33s
first huton - 14f clipped = 0.462s
average for 3 step (fastest) = 0.6105s

for reference, my own speeds @ 391 ss. 30 fps, 63 frames to cycle a gcd=0.033s per frame

my suiton - 33f clipped = 1.089s clipped
my raiton - 17f clipped = 0.561s clipped
my huton - 34f clipped = 1.122s clipped
average for 3 step = 1.105s

difference between my ok speeds and his fastest, jp tier speeds

suiton = 0.330s saved
raiton = 0.231s saved
huton = 0.660s saved
average for 3 step=0.4945s

if we assume 21 ninjutsu where mudra clips happen with an even divide of ninjutsu (7/7/7) that's 8.547s of clipping. taking his numbers (237k dmg @ 383s), if you extend the fight duration by 8.5s but keep the damage the same, his dps drops to 605.3 (13.5 dps less while not accounting for auto hits or dot ticks, so realistically even less of a dps loss number, around or less than 10). the bulk of it really just comes from a faster huton animation cancel really.

then on top of that, cc's speeds aren't as good as this person's speeds either. him doing 30-40+ dps extra isn't majorly from having better speeds or gear lol

I found out today the only other group on my server that's cleared T13 is comboing their LB3 with Trick Attack to do more damage. I've always been under the impression LB damage wasn't affected by anything. Has anyone done actual testing to see if they do combine together?

I've always been under the same assumption...

Maybe it's because TA is a vulnerability on your opponent and not actually a buff to yourself. But as far as I know, until I've seen actual testing of it, I'm not buying it.

if i need to lb and have trick available i try to use it before I lb but my reason is that so while im casting lb and stuck in the animations the rest of the raid is doing more damage. but ya i didnt think trick actually affect lb damage

Quick question. I forget where I saw/read this but if there are two trash mobs left in a group, is it more efficient to use Katon or Raiton? I always just focused down one target at a time and stuck with the latter, but then I heard using the former is the better choice (though it is trash so whatever). I'm just curious.

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

Quick question. I forget where I saw/read this but if there are two trash mobs left in a group, is it more efficient to use Katon or Raiton? I always just focused down one target at a time and stuck with the latter, but then I heard using the former is the better choice (though it is trash so whatever). I'm just curious.

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It's equally effective. Raiton is 360 potency, Katon is 180 (if it huts two targets that's 360 potency of damage). I'd just Raiton and burn down one target a time personally, but some situations it's better to use Katon depending on your group.

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Originally Posted by Best-MNK-NA

I found out today the only other group on my server that's cleared T13 is comboing their LB3 with Trick Attack to do more damage. I've always been under the impression LB damage wasn't affected by anything. Has anyone done actual testing to see if they do combine together?

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Arguments could be made on both sides but it would make sense if it did increase LB damage. Adds in t13 too close to the boss take a reduced amount of damage from lb from the vulnerability down buff, so the increased damage from vulnerability up might be worth confirming.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

I'm pretty sure he didn't AoE at all. Doton isn't going to push you up that high. I also saw this video while it was still on Alex's stream. I have yet to have a clean T10 run but I can get close to Chloro's numbers on T11, in similar if not worse gear (~30 DPS behind). I think a lot of it has to do with his connection/Ping. He can most likely get three-step mudras off with a lot less clipping. Comparing how I open to how he does he doesn't lose as much DPS whenever he refreshes huton as when I do. It is really hard to tell though without actually watching him, I think he has a niconico channel if anyone is subbed to that.

I think it is really good to note that he is BiS for i130 given that he has as much weighted dex as he possible can get.

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you have made this mistake multiple times. AE is talking about Aeolian Edge, not Area of Affect.

Ive a question for you guys.
In recent days, almost every ninja I've grouped with (as a tank) has been spamming Doton on ST fights.
Odin, 2 ninjas kept using Doton.
AKHM, 2 ninjas again kept using Doton for all ST boss phases.
WoD, again, seeing a LOT of Doton on ST bosses. IE its planted right under the boss, while the adds are spawning (and being tanked) along the sides.

Doton, if all ticks land, is 240 aoe potency. On 1 target, thats still 240.
Raiton is 360... 360 > 240... so why are so many spamming Doton on 1 mob?

That would be awesome to know about the vulnerability down and LB.

I believe it also works with SMN to Bane off a mob with the debuff and spread it to further mobs for the duration of the dots (like with White Fires)
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With the Mudra action delay, I was able to fix mine by allowing FFXIV to bypass the Packet filtering on my Network Firewall. Now I can fit all 3 easily within my GCD.

(Checking the ping to the Montreal server I only had 30 ms and yet I still had major delays (up to a full GCD))

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

With the Mudra action delay, I was able to fix mine by allowing FFXIV to bypass the Packet filtering on my Network Firewall.

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How do you disable Packet Filtering specifically for FFXIV? Is that potentially unsafe?

I want faster mudras!

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Originally Posted by Kanemano

How do you disable Packet Filtering specifically for FFXIV? Is that potentially unsafe?

I want faster mudras!

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Yeah. It could be unsafe because it doesn't check any incoming packets.
But it only gives access to SEs server. So that would have to be compromised to cause an issue.
If your router has the option under Firewall settings you can set it there.

You can do a quick check by turning off your firewall to see if it makes a difference, prior to figuring out how to set it up.

Sorry if it seems like a dumb question, however I was looking at the different BiS that were posted

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*0.201 Skill Speed Weight (0.5 second Murdra Delay)*

Crafted:

Flint Caviar - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZDQ (+498.369 DEX)

Apkallu Omelette - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZDR (+497.853 DEX)

Lava Toad Legs - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZF4 (+497.638 DEX)

Black Truffle Risotto - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZFY (+496.606 DEX)


Non-Crafted:

Lava Toad Legs - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZDP (+491.896 DEX)

Flint Caviar - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZDW (+491.88 DEX)

Apkallu Omelette - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZDX (+491.278)

Black Truffle Risotto - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZDS (+490.852 DEX)

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From my understanding it would mean the crafted gear is better? I saw the dex higher on crafted gear, guessing based of how many secondary stats it can provide ? The follow up question is is the difference noticeable ?

1) Yes Crafted gear is better
2) Yes, it's based on what secondary stats can provide
3) Yes and no. Noticeable on paper. But comparing a full i130 vs BiS crafted gear using a parser? Very unlikely due to RNG.

Though, if you obtain crafted pieces earlier on, you'll notice a significant difference in DPS. That is for certain.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

why are so many spamming Doton on 1 mob?

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They're bad at the job.

So I finally got a chance to test LB + TA. Without TA LB1 averaged 7.9k-8.1k damage. With TA it did 8.7k-8.9k damage. So it's good enough for me to confirm: Trick Attack does combo with Limit Break.

hey guys, just came up with a BiS, what do you think? http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PCT7

BTW i'm using 0.19 as stat weight for SS since i'm playing from EU on servers located in NA, with a fluctuating 130ms.
got t13 on farm for a while, really hoping to get those daggers soon.

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Originally Posted by Kazard

hey guys, just came up with a BiS, what do you think? http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PCT7

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Using the same skill speed weight I used for the sets in the OP, this one does come out slightly higher (+498.931), though 4x i110 left side may be pushing it for HP.

Thanks! Added to the OP.

i think the thing about pushing multiple crafted pieces is that it'll start heavily adjusting your actual stat weights eventually to the point where the baseline dex is too low for the weights to be relevant anymore. i don't think 5 pieces is pushing it, but you would have to simulate it for ninja to see i guess (at some point for the drg thread, with 9 pieces crafted with the highest theoretical weights, it did less dps than a set less crafted pieces and lower weights in simulator)

anyway, poverty melds v2 -

locking in an 18 acc belt/ring and lowering skillspeed weight to 0.18 (out of curiosity) ariyala spits out a different gearset that only has 369 skillspeed. as much of a real weight skill speed has, i'm still not very fond of it past a certain point, so it looks nicer than other crafted sets which get a good amount of their weight advantage from skill speed.
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PD61

weighing this vs noncrafted bis with 0.18 skillspeed weight, it's 5.135 more effective dex for only 2 melded pieces and vitality stays the same because of flint caviar vs catfish, though the real highlight for me is only having 369 skill speed and also having a great amount of det (411 det!) while being affordable; the only hard melds are accuracy +9 in 3rd/4th slots of both items (16%/10% iirc).

even if you're too poor/stingy/unlucky for that like i am, you can do 9/9 on one item and 9/6 on the other to get http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PD5Y . it's 4.908 effective dex, 0.227 lower with lower det in exchange for higher crit/skillspeed, but still good especially for the cost. it'd probably take you less than 5m to craft and meld both pieces if your server prices are reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

as much of a real weight skill speed has, i'm still not very fond of it past a certain point

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I feel ya here. Even with 399 skill speed, I'm having some TP issues in final coil, though I'm sure my Invig timing could be better 80% of the time. I'll always prefer more DET or Crit, even if the SS I'm sacrificing technically out weighs it by a few points.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

Ive a question for you guys.
In recent days, almost every ninja I've grouped with (as a tank) has been spamming Doton on ST fights.
Odin, 2 ninjas kept using Doton.
AKHM, 2 ninjas again kept using Doton for all ST boss phases.
WoD, again, seeing a LOT of Doton on ST bosses. IE its planted right under the boss, while the adds are spawning (and being tanked) along the sides.

Doton, if all ticks land, is 240 aoe potency. On 1 target, thats still 240.
Raiton is 360... 360 > 240... so why are so many spamming Doton on 1 mob?

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whenever me or my friend who plays ninja see this we ask if they messed up the mudra. if they didnt, then we ask them if they know how dots work. 9/10 they dont.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

Ive a question for you guys.
In recent days, almost every ninja I've grouped with (as a tank) has been spamming Doton on ST fights.
Odin, 2 ninjas kept using Doton.
AKHM, 2 ninjas again kept using Doton for all ST boss phases.
WoD, again, seeing a LOT of Doton on ST bosses. IE its planted right under the boss, while the adds are spawning (and being tanked) along the sides.

Doton, if all ticks land, is 240 aoe potency. On 1 target, thats still 240.
Raiton is 360... 360 > 240... so why are so many spamming Doton on 1 mob?

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whenever me or my friend who plays ninja see this we ask if they messed up the mudra. if they didnt, then we ask them if they know how dots work. 9/10 they dont.

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Yeah... It seems a lot of people (not just NINs) take one glance at their ability tool-tips and use them based on that impression. I'm sure these Ninjas are thinking "It's a DoT, why wouldn't I want to put it up?" because, like I said, they aren't actually putting any effort into learning the skills before they use them.

Unfortunately, we can't make people "play good". All we can do is put together resources like this and hope enough people don't want to suck.

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Originally Posted by Best-MNK-NA

So I finally got a chance to test LB + TA. Without TA LB1 averaged 7.9k-8.1k damage. With TA it did 8.7k-8.9k damage. So it's good enough for me to confirm: Trick Attack does combo with Limit Break.

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I tested this after seeing this post. With the same party and performed done on a training dummy, LB1 did 8.2k while TA LB1 did 8.1k. Trick Attack does not combo with Limit Break.

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Originally Posted by Kiyomu

I tested this after seeing this post. With the same party and performed done on a training dummy, LB1 did 8.2k while TA LB1 did 8.1k. Trick Attack does not combo with Limit Break.

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+1 to above post. Tried it too with the same party on a training dummy, LB1 did 8.5k while LB1+TA did 8.1k