The Letter is up

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

I empathize with that statement, but the business side of me says it would be hard to rationalize the appointment of MORE resources to a game that is making NO money.

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As is said..."You've got to spend money to make money."

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Originally Posted by Cutriss

As is said..."You've got to spend money to make money."

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For an Entrepreneur, yes. For an established corporation, no not really. Especially in our current economic climate, most businesses are trying to do MORE with LESS. And considering the huge loss that SE recently wrote off in response to the natural disaster in Japan, we are frankly lucky that they continue to develop this game at all.

People need to relax and let them do their thing. This game wasn't ready, but the suits upstairs decided that the deadline still had to be meet and they pushed it out. That's what got us into this mess.

Yoshi and this team have set the deadlines as being when the quality is right. I infinitely prefer that over simply pushing crap out to meet a specific date.

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Originally Posted by Airlea

People need to relax and let them do their thing. This game wasn't ready, but the suits upstairs decided that the deadline still had to be meet and they pushed it out. That's what got us into this mess.

Yoshi and this team have set the deadlines as being when the quality is right. I infinitely prefer that over simply pushing crap out to meet a specific date.

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QFT

/liked

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Originally Posted by Airlea

People need to relax and let them do their thing. This game wasn't ready, but the suits upstairs decided that the deadline still had to be meet and they pushed it out. That's what got us into this mess.

Yoshi and this team have set the deadlines as being when the quality is right. I infinitely prefer that over simply pushing crap out to meet a specific date.

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And this is the example set by id Software and Blizzard. A game isn't ready until it's ready. Most software developers haven't caught onto this fact. Hopefully, SE learns its lesson from this situation, as it's the path to releasing consistently high quality games.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

For an Entrepreneur, yes. For an established corporation, no not really. Especially in our current economic climate, most businesses are trying to do MORE with LESS.

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Sorry, your soundbite-laden post doesn't really negate the fact that you do indeed have to spend money to make money. SE cannot simply will this product into existence. They have to pay someone to make it. If they stop spending money on it, then they are closing the door on it and they will never profit from it. It's a gamble.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

And considering the huge loss that SE recently wrote off in response to the natural disaster in Japan, we are frankly lucky that they continue to develop this game at all.

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First off, they didn't write off any loss due to the disaster. The earthquake isn't even three months old and the long-tail effects of it haven't fully manifested in SE's ongoing sales. They didn't lose any major assets such as an office building. The biggest external factor affecting their profits right now is the market valuation of the yen, which is still doing better than the dollar right now, and again, earthquake was three months ago.

SE's current financial woes are of their own making. It's up to them if they want to take the gamble, but you can't gamble without putting money down.

I don't know why Yoshi-P making Auto-Attack a highest priority in this letter....

If people just need to spam normal attack, that's mean the game's core battle mechanic and strategy is FAIL

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Originally Posted by Evangela

If people just need to spam normal attack, that's mean the game's core battle mechanic and strategy is FAIL

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...That's why they're changing it.

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Originally Posted by Cutriss

Sorry, your soundbite-laden post doesn't really negate the fact that you do indeed have to spend money to make money. SE cannot simply will this product into existence. They have to pay someone to make it. If they stop spending money on it, then they are closing the door on it and they will never profit from it. It's a gamble.

First off, they didn't write off any loss due to the disaster. The earthquake isn't even three months old and the long-tail effects of it haven't fully manifested in SE's ongoing sales. They didn't lose any major assets such as an office building. The biggest external factor affecting their profits right now is the market valuation of the yen, which is still doing better than the dollar right now, and again, earthquake was three months ago.

SE's current financial woes are of their own making. It's up to them if they want to take the gamble, but you can't gamble without putting money down.

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First of all, stop taking stuff so personally. I never said that you "don't have to spend money to make money." My argument originally was that SE can't or won't assign more resources to a game that is not making profit when they can be used on resources that can and will make money. This is basic business. If the gamble on FFXIV gets TOO big, believe me they will shut it down in an instant.

Secondly, There was an article on these very boards that SE lowered there financial forecast due to the recent earthquake. They either have already written it off, which is common practice for a company that KNOWS its taking a huge loss, or have PLANNED to write it off.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

I don't know why Yoshi-P making Auto-Attack a highest priority in this letter....

If people just need to spam normal attack, that's mean the game's core battle mechanic and strategy is FAIL

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When Yoshi first announced auto-attack, he clearly stated that relying on it would not be enough to win.
It's in there to facilitate group communication and to save you from wearing out your "1" key.

Mis-post sorry

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Originally Posted by Airlea

People need to relax and let them do their thing. This game wasn't ready, but the suits upstairs decided that the deadline still had to be meet and they pushed it out. That's what got us into this mess.

Yoshi and this team have set the deadlines as being when the quality is right. I infinitely prefer that over simply pushing crap out to meet a specific date.

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While I agree that it will be done when its done, as a current player, its hard to relax about when its done when they give false dates (or any dates at all) for when THEY think something will be done.

Its funny, most of us have been saying for years (from back during ffxi even) that Se needs to have more PR and inform the players whats going on more, but now that they are, I kinda wish they would just shut up lol. I like being in the loop to an extent but, they are way better off saying such and such will be ready when its ready than saying ambiguous statements like "mid-june at the earliest". Whether we want it to or not people, that sort of thing creates a false expectation that leads to the kind of dissapointment that fuels this current thread.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

First of all, stop taking stuff so personally.

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Not taking it personally, sorry if I sound that way. Plenty of vitriol around here after all, I meant no offense myself.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

I never said that you "don't have to spend money to make money." My argument originally was that SE can't or won't assign more resources to a game that is not making profit when they can be used on resources that can and will make money. This is basic business. If the gamble on FFXIV gets TOO big, believe me they will shut it down in an instant.

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Certainly. My point is this: 20 people working on the project for the next six months compared to 40 people working on the project for the next three months (mythical man month issues notwithstanding), you're more likely to stem your losses than extending them, and by the end of those three months, if it appears your product will still be viable, you can re-evaluate your staffing priorities at that time.

Basically - if you're going to commit to the project, *commit* to it. Give it the supplemental staff it needs to get back on track, or cut the project.

As the saying goes, piss or get off the pot.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Secondly, There was an article on these very boards that SE lowered there financial forecast due to the recent earthquake. They either have already written it off, which is common practice for a company that KNOWS its taking a huge loss, or have PLANNED to write it off.

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That's much different. It's a write-off due to declining sales resulting from reduced marketability. It's not a direct result of the earthquake, it's an indirect result.

In a sad way it's actually lucky for them because they can attribute more of their failures to external factors without coming off as incompetent or poorly-performing.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

While I agree that it will be done when its done, as a current player, its hard to relax about when its done when they give false dates (or any dates at all) for when THEY think something will be done.

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By this logic SE should just majorly piss all of us off and just say "It will be done when it's done. Peace out bitches"

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Originally Posted by Cutriss

Not taking it personally, sorry if I sound that way. Plenty of vitriol around here after all, I meant no offense myself.Certainly. My point is this: 20 people working on the project for the next six months compared to 40 people working on the project for the next three months (mythical man month issues notwithstanding), you're more likely to stem your losses than extending them, and by the end of those three months, if it appears your product will still be viable, you can re-evaluate your staffing priorities at that time.

Basically - if you're going to commit to the project, *commit* to it. Give it the supplemental staff it needs to get back on track, or cut the project.

As the saying goes, piss or get off the pot.That's much different. It's a write-off due to declining sales resulting from reduced marketability. It's not a direct result of the earthquake, it's an indirect result.

In a sad way it's actually lucky for them because they can attribute more of their failures to external factors without coming off as incompetent or poorly-performing.

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I see your point and I understand it, but it would still probably be hard to justify in a business environment. We would need far more details than we have to know for sure, such as why is it taking so long? Is it the programming side of it that is taking longest? Or the management side of it. Arguable it is the planning phase that takes the longest but doubling the amount of leadership in charge for setting the visions and goals of the games is going to cost more and probably make things slower than adding 20 programmers to just make the work go faster.

Also, I did the required research and SE did take damage to some of their assets from the earthquake, about 0.6 billion Yen loss.

http://www.square-enix.com/eng/news/pdf/110512.pdf

Just so that I am backing up my big mouth, lol.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

By this logic SE should just majorly piss all of us off and just say "It will be done when it's done. Peace out bitches"

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No, they could easily tell us what they are working on without giving any dates. I would much rather they just not give dates or even date estimates until its a lock was my point. In regards to pissing us of, either way they do it they are gonna piss someone off, it cant be helped. I just happen to be in the "no dates, but official ones" camp is all.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

No, they could easily tell us what they are working on without giving any dates. I would much rather they just not give dates or even date estimates until its a lock was my point. In regards to pissing us of, either way they do it they are gonna piss someone off, it cant be helped. I just happen to be in the "no dates, but official ones" camp is all.

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Why would they get our hopes up with even telling us what they are working on? Your logic is that trying to set a deadline is bad because it gets our hopes up to only be dissapointed when they delay it "Even though they said it could be delayed"

So by following this line of logic it would be better if SE just stood up and said "Game will get better, eventually. peace out bro"

Setting deadlines helps them as well as a team focus on working hard to hit those deadlines they set out for us. Unfortunatly it wont always be the case but I'd rather see some dates than none.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Also, I did the required research and SE did take damage to some of their assets from the earthquake, about 0.6 billion Yen loss.

http://www.square-enix.com/eng/news/pdf/110512.pdf

Just so that I am backing up my big mouth, lol.

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Which is less than half of one percent of their market cap. I personally think it has more symbolic meaning than anything.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Why would they get our hopes up with even telling us what they are working on? Your logic is that trying to set a deadline is bad because it gets our hopes up to only be disappointed when they delay it "Even though they said it could be delayed"

So by following this line of logic it would be better if SE just stood up and said "Game will get better, eventually. peace out bro"

Setting deadlines helps them as well as a team focus on working hard to hit those deadlines they set out for us. Unfortunately it wont always be the case but I'd rather see some dates than none.

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Why not increase communications so that we have a better understanding of why things take so long or the logic behind decisions and release dates.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Why not increase communications so that we have a better understanding of why things take so long or the logic behind decisions and release dates.

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What don't we understand allready?

Why did it take so long to do? Well one can only assume it's reasons not fully under there control. Could be the suits upstairs, could be that people don't understand how much work it takes to actually change the battle system, could be a number of things.

What do you want Yoshida to sit down and give us a page of code and tell us "Here you go guys make this the Auto Attack system, then you will understand how hard this shit is."

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Originally Posted by Biggs

No, they could easily tell us what they are working on without giving any dates.

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They haven't been giving us dates. This is the problem. People like you jump the gun and think that when they say "sometime mid-June," that means "June15th!!!!!!!"

They give us an approximate time frame for when they think something may be done. Yoshi always stresses the fact that these timelines are subject to change as the only real deadline they have is when everything is up to par.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Why would they get our hopes up with even telling us what they are working on? Your logic is that trying to set a deadline is bad because it gets our hopes up to only be dissapointed when they delay it "Even though they said it could be delayed"

So by following this line of logic it would be better if SE just stood up and said "Game will get better, eventually. peace out bro"

Setting deadlines helps them as well as a team focus on working hard to hit those deadlines they set out for us. Unfortunatly it wont always be the case but I'd rather see some dates than none.

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You sure do like telling me what my logic is without having actually reading what I said. I am not saying they shouldnt set deadlines, deadlines are crucial to game development and I understand this. But the statement "mid-june at the earliest", whether we want it to or not, is going to make some people believe they said "mid-june you all will be getting a patch". If you need testiment of this, simply scroll up and read the 1000 dissapointed replies above mine. Is it fair to them? No. Is it at all accurate of what was said? Again, no its not. But it doesnt change the fact that people read what they want to. When they make statements like saying "the plan is to have a consistent set of patches for the next few months that will improve the game", then tell people that you are aiming to have an update in june (like they have every month before june) it sets an expectation.

My point was, they are better off not giving any dates or guestimates of dates until they have them locked in and are officially releasing something.

How can people be dissapointed when they were never givin a date to begin with "Mid June" is pretty broad and they even stated that it was "At the earliest mid june" So anyone who is dissapointed needs to learn how to read.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

while(mode== activeMode && target == hostile)
{
Action(classDefaultAttack);
Wait(fiveSeconds*classWeaponSpeed);
};

See what I did there D:

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Yep. You created an infinite loop that would crash the client. Grats.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

My point was, they are better off not giving any dates or guestimates of dates until they have them locked in and are officially releasing something.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

How can people be dissapointed when they were never givin a date to begin with "Mid June" is pretty broad and they even stated that it was "At the earliest mid june" So anyone who is dissapointed needs to learn how to read.

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Exactly. This is what they've done, is NOT given us an exact date. Slippage of a couple weeks for testing the dungeon is actually a pretty good result, given that software development usually takes double the expected time.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

the statement "mid-june at the earliest", whether we want it to or not, is going to make some people believe they said "mid-june you all will be getting a patch".

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Yeah, about that. Hopefully they don't procreate before they get Darwin'd out.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Why did it take so long to do? Well one can only assume it's reasons not fully under there control. Could be the suits upstairs, could be that people don't understand how much work it takes to actually change the battle system, could be a number of things.

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I dunno. Maybe they could tell us.

Software development time is almost always under-estimated. Humans are naturally optimistic when it comes to their ability to complete a task.

Saw an interesting study while I was in school - 80% of people think they are better than average (when polled about pretty much their skill at anything).

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I dunno. Maybe they could tell us.

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Why would they tell us any of those reasons? Here is the reality of what those responses would be.

The suits are making it hard: Your all fired
The team is small so it takes a long time: Your all fired
Changing the game is a massive undertaking: "Community" You guys just suck and are slow
Technical explination: I didn't understand that you all suck.

The team can't win for loosing if they try to explain what takes them however long to make the updates. We just have to assume they are all actually working, if we can't believe that then I suggest you look at why your still posting here. Nothing SE could say to us would appease the masses, so why should they bother at this point in time?

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The suits are making it hard: Your all fired
The team is small so it takes a long time: Your all fired
Changing the game is a massive undertaking: "Community" You guys just suck and are slow
Technical explination: I didn't understand that you all suck.

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You're jumping to conclusions based on conjecture.

Square has made a mistake and they want to rectify it. If it means a part of them look bad or insufficient, that's one of the consequences they have to deal with to regain trust. It also lets everyone know what they have to work on so they can improve as a company. Admitting they have communication problems was a start and no one got sacked for it.

I just feel Square could stand to be a little more open with communication so we can stop pretending we know what's taking them so long.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

How can people be dissapointed when they were never givin a date to begin with "Mid June" is pretty broad and they even stated that it was "At the earliest mid june" So anyone who is dissapointed needs to learn how to read.

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It would appear that one of the people who have to "learn how to read" is Yoshi-P:

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Originally Posted by Yoshi-P

We just need to secure enough time for testing and optimizing balance…which, I’m afraid, will push the patch behind schedule.

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Originally Posted by Elkwood

2 weeks to wait for the patch is really not that bad of a delay and he gave us a lot of good information in that small letter.

Confirmed for 1.18

2 Endgame Dungeons
Auto Attack
Proper Enmity Calculations
New Weaponskill Animations
Active/Passive Mode switch while Moving
Stamina Gauge Gone

Then he added there is still more to come on top of that, so again why all the hate because truly this is shaping up to be one hellva patch just on what he confirmed today not including other things to be added into the patch. 1.18/1.19 are going to be fantastic patches of hopefully many more fantastic patches, and this is the first true update from the new development team so i would think a little more gratitude would be in order.

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I've seen this said a couple of times by different people in this thread. So I wanted to correct it.

Patch 1.18 will include auto-attack, and (probably) 2 dungeons. One of the dungeons will be end-game, one will be mid-level content.

New Weaponskill animations will NOT be included in 1.18. Those will be included in 1.19. Here's the quote from the letter:

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Attack motion diversification and fine-tuning are planned for 1.19.

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Given their history of content-related patches, that will probably come a month after 1.18. So August, at the earliest (if there are no further delays).

We don't know when active-passive mode switch while moving will be added. I'm hopeful it will be in 1.18, but the letter doesn't say that.

He did not say that there would be "more to come on top of that" in 1.18. In fact, there's probably less. For example, auto-attack will be implemented in 1.18, but not fully implemented. You know how most classes have more than one kind of basic attack? Like "Heavy Strike" and "Broad Swing"? Well, those will probably not be implemented in 1.18. Here's the pertinent quote:

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Multiple attacks during auto-attack is also being planned for the future.

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So that probably won't be included in either 1.18 or 1.19.

I think this patch will actually be smaller than you're suggesting here. And I wanted to see if I could avoid further belly-aching by people ramping up expectations despite what the letter itself actually says.

I think everyone needs to just settle down, relax and be a litte more patient. There are alot of other things in the works that will probably be attached to this patch, like all the encampments, remember those? companies? remember those? along with more quests... This patch is going to be packed and I can't wait! In a couple months time you're going to be complaining because you don't know what to do first.

and always remember, You know you love the game, you know you're going to keep playing, quit your bitching because it's still FREE!

Go Square go!

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Originally Posted by VydarrTyr

It would appear that one of the people who have to "learn how to read" is Yoshi-P:

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I would imagine that comment is because he knows people are going to "Expect" the patch tomorrow even when he stated "At the earliest"

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Originally Posted by Lerris

And this is the example set by id Software and Blizzard. A game isn't ready until it's ready. Most software developers haven't caught onto this fact. Hopefully, SE learns its lesson from this situation, as it's the path to releasing consistently high quality games.

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The problem with Square Enix's management right now, though, is while the development times are crazy long, the teams are so horribly managed disconnected that they end up with bad quality regardless.

They're experts at long dev times this generation. Now they gotta figure out how to be experts at making good games.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Secondly, There was an article on these very boards that SE lowered there financial forecast due to the recent earthquake. They either have already written it off, which is common practice for a company that KNOWS its taking a huge loss, or have PLANNED to write it off.

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The earthquake was only a small factor in their losses.

http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/201...ings_revision/

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The revision is due to extraordinary losses, in part from a "tightened selection standard" for games. This will result in 4.5 billion yen in losses related to development cancellations. A press release announcing the revision did not share specifics beyond this.
The company will also incur a "loss on disaster" of approximately 0.6 billion yen related to the Tohoku earthquake. This is for closures and restoration of amusement facilities.

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http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/201...ada_on_losses/

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Speaking at an investor's briefing on the 13th (via Nikkei), Wada explained that of the 12 billion loss, about 4.5 billion came from such things as Final Fantasy XIV's reworking and the cancelation of multiple titles. Most of the 4.5 billion was related to domestic development, he said.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

The earthquake was only a small factor in their losses.

http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/201...ings_revision/


http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/201...ada_on_losses/

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im glad you pointed this out, thank you.

Two endgame dungeons, almost forced from all the yelling and whining, even though we are not at the "end of the game". Two endgame dungeons that will be useless and abandoned as soon as the level cap is raised up to where it will remain for the game's duration.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I would imagine that comment is because he knows people are going to "Expect" the patch tomorrow even when he stated "At the earliest"

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Hold the f*ck up. You just got done telling me that people that expect stuff in june need to learn how to read (implying they are idiots). Now your saying that even though Yoshi specifically uses the words "behind schedule", the "schedule" itself is an imaginary one created by the players and not one that is trying to be upheld by the developers. And you have a problem with MY logic? We could walk through the holes in yours dude.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

Hold the f*ck up. You just got done telling me that people that expect stuff in june need to learn how to read (implying they are idiots). Now your saying that even though Yoshi specifically uses the words "behind schedule", the "schedule" itself is an imaginary one created by the players and not one that is trying to be upheld by the developers. And you have a problem with MY logic? We could walk through the holes in yours dude.

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Whats wrong with Yoshi-P pandering to the forums? He understands people thought he meant "Expect patch by the 15th" once the coments had been relayed to his team by the community reps. Why wouldn't he adress it in that manner?

What did you expect Yoshi to say? "Yeah were not actually delayed because we didn't promise you anything...idiots" No he has to be respectfull to the community no matter how daft it is. If people thought he meant "Patch on the 15th" he has to run on what the community is assuming, people would cry if he called people out for acting like babies because of a delay that he told us was probable from the get-go.

Nothing wrong with my logic.

*edit*

I'm not overtly calling people idiots, but people need to not take things out of context such as "Well he said mid june...maybe so it's obviously mid-june" and totally ignore the whole "As early as" part.