The Black Mage Rotations

Tanks for this Aoe rotation but what about the single target rotation? Any change between 2.0 and 2.1?

As a sub blm, I always find it odd that people arent aiming to spam flare as much as possible in 2.0. I mean, it's flare. At least until I found out about the double flare tick trick.

I've never really kept track of the numbers though. What were the numbers on the old rotation compared to the 'current' fire 3>2>flare>transpose rotation?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalvin1783

Also, Louro999 submitted...

---

Yes, you're right! I didn't notice that the two rotations are almost the same. If you have enough mana for two Fire 2's and Flare, then it will increase PPS:

Fire 3 > Fire 2 > Fire 2 > Flare > Transpose
Potency formula: (828 x N + 198) / 15 = 55.2N + 13.2 PPS
where N is the number of targets

The extra Fire 2 adds 3 seconds because it takes one more mana tick. This is actually 0.16 PPS lower for 2 targets (which is negligible), but is always higher for 3 targets or more.

For comparison:
B2-B2-F3-Flare-Transpose (old): (668 x N + 154) / 12 = 55.7N + 12.8 PPS
B2-B2-F3-Flare-Transpose (2.1): (568 x N + 154) / 15 = 37.9N + 10.3 PPS
F3-F2-Flare-Transpose (2.1): (648 x N + 198) / 12 = 54.0N + 16.5 PPS

Excellent, we are getting somewhere! Ok, so you have shown that Fire 2 is always an increase to PPS, so then using that reasoning, our first rotation while we are at full mana should contain as many of them as possible before flare, right? I believe the average amount is about 4. Then after our flare > convert we should continue into Fire 3 > Fire 2 x2 > Flare rotation?

Yes. I would cast as many Fire 2 as possible while leaving enough mana to cast Flare. Just be sure to watch enmity if you haven't used Quelling Strikes.

Whenever I test them they always seem to amount to the same damage. I don't know if it's just Crit rate that's affecting it as Flare crits are going to add a lot more damage than Fire II crits, but they always seem to both jump between 400-450 for me. I managed to get the double Fire II rotation to around 420-450 just now, while the single Fire II rotation would jump between 440-450 but would often spike to 460/470 with a double crit Flare.

Crits probably affect it greatly. Fire II does around 410 per monster, while doing 620 on a crit. Flare does about 1050 on a single monster, while it crits for 1700-1800. The more monsters there are, the more Flare has a chance to have insane crits, too.

I believe the majority of monsters you have to AoE will die before you notice any real difference either way. You won't get enough crits to make it significantly better, and if you're really unlucky you aren't fighting long enough for non-crits to mean anything. Not to say you're wrong as I honestly haven't invested any time into the math side of it to know what you're talking about (had to go back just to figure out what PPS was xD), just that either way could be right. Worth looking into.

Would be so much easier if we could just switch procs and crits off completely. :x

I've been posting in a bunch of different Black Mage threads, so I forgot to mention here that PPS = Potency Per Second. Potency is relative and scales with your damage, so it's easy to work with.

The reason you're getting the same damage is that they are virtually the same. If you're testing on 3 targets, then the difference is only 1 PPS 0.3 PPS. To compare, these two rotations beat out the next highest rotations by over 13 PPS (3 targets), and I can't even confirm that those rotations are possible (not enough spell speed). For rotations that I can do, the difference is over 23 PPS (3 targets). The difference becomes more significant as you go to more targets.

Mathematically speaking, crit doesn't affect potency. In a nutshell, the single F2 rotation has more "buffed flares per second", but it also has more "debuffed F3's per second". Crit basically has the effect of making your damage "spikier". Edit: This is only true if the crit rate is the same for all attacks. If you had a single attack that say, had a bonus to crit chance or crit damage, then it would affect the potency.

Bump for an updated tricks section!

Playing around with the iceless rotation idea, I've found that double Flares are still possible. It's still not anywhere near as good as Flare (UI3) > Flare (AF3) > Transpose > Blizzard II (UI1) > Blizzard II (UI2) was in 2.0, but it's better than I expected it to be without hasted casts. Need to add a Fire II to make it worth using, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82L9IbUPMxU

- Umbral Ice I gives 10% reduction in potency
- Astral Fire III gives a 80% increase in potency
- Cast times are based on my current times at 539 spell speed and 2.31s GCD
- All three rotations rely on an Umbral Ice I MP tick to start, so I've based PPS assuming the longest possible wait of 3s
- Counting Transpose at 0.5s due to having to wait a moment for Flare to hit first
- N = number of enemies in range

1)
Fire III (UI1) > Fire II (AF3) > Fire II (AF3) > Flare (AF3) > Transpose
3.0s + 3.23s + 2.77s + 2.77s + 3.7s + 0.5s = 15.97s
Single: 198
AOE: 180 + 180 + 468 = 828
198/15.97 = 12.39
828/15.97 = 51.84
PPS = 51.84N + 12.39

2)
Wait 2s after MP tick > Flare (UI1) > Flare (AF3) > Transpose
3.0s + 2.0s + 3.7s + 3.7s + 0.5s = 12.9s
AOE: 234 + 468 = 702
702/12.9 = 54.42
PPS = 54.42N

3)
Wait 2s after MP tick > Flare (UI1) > Fire II (AF3) > Flare (AF3) > Transpose
3.0s + 2.0s + 3.7s + 2.77s + 3.7s + 0.5s = 15.67s
AOE: 234 + 180 + 468 = 882
882/15.67 = 56.29
PPS = 56.29N

The MP tick won't always take 3s though, so let's see what the PPS with a 1 second wait.
1) 59.27N + 14.17
2) 58.5N (Transpose limits it to 12s minimum)
3) 64.52N

So under more ideal conditions, the Flare only rotation ends up falling behind the other two, while the other two stay strong. Between 1 and 3, 3 does more AOE damage, but also comes with the added risk of downtime if you mistime the Flare.

I'm glad someone else is doing calculations using potency! You made me realize that some of my formulas were wrong, because UI1 only gives a 10% reduction in potency and I was assuming 30% as if they were in UI3. I'll have to go correct those.

I'd like to point out that the mana tick times in your rotations are predictable. Mana ticks always occur exactly every 3s and this is not affected by spell speed. Since you know that a tick has to occur after the Transpose before you can do anything, you will know when the tick will occur after you cast all of your spells. Therefore, all of those rotations will be an exact multiple of 3s.

1) Time = 15s: (828N + 198) / 15 = 55.2N + 13.2 PPS
2) Time = 12s: 702N /12 = 58.5N PPS
3) Time = 15s: 882N / 15 = 58.8N PPS

Rotations #2 and #3 beat out #1 at 4 or more targets.

I'll have to try these out too. Thanks!

Ah, right. When I finally got around to the math (Initially I thought this would be more a parlor trick than anything else), I wasn't looking at the rotation as a whole when thinking of the MP tick... Which is kinda silly, considering the rotation is entirely dependent on that.

Hi all, I have started looking at the forums recently to learn how to play blm as effective as possible. I have learned about effective single target rotation and these forums have help a lot, infact I don't even know how I got as far as I did w/o it.

Here is my question with the update where can I learn more about aoe rotations, what is an effective cross bar setup, and maybe what skills are better left on a second cross bar?

If you have links to other threads or what page to start from on this thread it would be appreciated.
Thanks

The AoE rotation is listed on the first page. It took a nerf with 2.1 but I believe it is still the top AoE DPS. As for cross bar setups, I'm not sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Synovius

The AoE rotation is listed on the first page. It took a nerf with 2.1 but I believe it is still the top AoE DPS. As for cross bar setups, I'm not sure.

---

From my testing, it's Fire III > Fire II spam > Flare > (Transpose > wait 2s after tick > Flare > Fire II > Flare) X N until Flare > Convert + Swiftcast Flare can finish the enemies.

It sounds slow but it hits like a truck, and if you get lucky with your MP tick after Flare there's not THAT much down-time. Double Flare still exists, it's just slower. This parsed higher for me than any Blizzard II or Freeze rotation I tried, and it's almost as good as the old double Flare glitch. Almost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sleigh

From my testing, it's Fire III > Fire II spam > Flare > (Transpose > wait 2s after tick > Flare > Fire II > Flare) X N until Flare > Convert + Swiftcast Flare can finish the enemies.

It sounds slow but it hits like a truck, and if you get lucky with your MP tick after Flare there's not THAT much down-time. Double Flare still exists, it's just slower. This parsed higher for me than any Blizzard II or Freeze rotation I tried, and it's almost as good as the old double Flare glitch. Almost.

---

I keep getting different feedback in parties - aoe: f3, f2, flare, covert, swiftcast, flare again, transpose and single: f3>f1, transpose, bliz3, mana build up, trans and repeat.

Those two seem the most common variations i keep getting. Then add the ones on this post at the top. So I'm a bit confused on any definitive rotation.

transpose > flare > f2 > flare > repeat is putting out my best numbers for an AoE rotation; but like the old one, if you have lag or bad timing, you will suffer. The other rotations that involve blizzards are safer and will leave you screwed less often.

Single target is the same it has ever been for me, just lost the speed buff of the initial F1. I do miss B3 > F3 > F3 > repeat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Synovius

The AoE rotation is listed on the first page. It took a nerf with 2.1 but I believe it is still the top AoE DPS.

---

I have to disagree. When I do this rotation it takes 15s, which makes the potency:

B2-B2-F3-Flare-Transpose (15s): (568N + 154) / 15 = 37.9N + 10.3 PPS
where N is the number of targets.

Even if you had the spell speed to do it in 12s (it can't get any faster, because of Transpose's cooldown), it would be:

B2-B2-F3-Flare-Transpose (12s): (568N + 154) / 12 = 47.3N + 12.8 PPS

This is still far lower than F3-F2-F2-Flare-Transpose: 55.2N + 13.2 PPS. For only 3 targets, this is a difference of 21 PPS (12s) or 52 PPS (15s) and it gets worse with more targets. The B2-B2 rotation was great in 2.0, but it's taken a huge nerf. For reference, it was 55.7N + 12.8 PPS in 2.0.

I haven't even tried the double Flare rotations, but you can see the formulas in a previous post.

So, like you posted in the other thread about the Blizzard II nerf, you're saying the new AoE rotation is:

Fire III ==> Fire II ==> Flare ==> Transpose ==> Wait for mana tick

With the following math as support:

154 ==> 180 ==> 468
(154 + 180 + 468) / (3.5 + 3.0 + 4.0)
802 / 10.5 = 76.38 PPS

If we added a second Fire II, it would look like:

154 ==> 180 ==> 180 ==> 468
(154 + 180 + 180 + 468) / (3.5 + 3.0 + 3.0 + 4.0)
982 / 13.5 = 72.74 PPS

A third (not consistently possible at current gear levels):

154 ==> 180 ==> 180 ==> 180 ==> 468
(154 + 180 + 180 + 180 + 468) / (3.5 + 3.0 + 3.0 + 3.0 + 4.0)
1162 / 16.5 = 70.42 PPS

I think someone said earlier that, theoretically, adding in as many Fire II between Fire III and Flare would be a net increase in DPS but it actually looks like it's a decrease in DPS where the decrease would be less and less the more Fire II's you cast.

What if we cut out Fire II's altogether though?

154 ==> 468
(154 + 468) / (3.5 + 4.0)
622 / 7.5 = 82.93

The downside of the above, however, would be more "downtime" over the duration of parses as you will be waiting on your UI tick more often. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think mana regeneration ticks are on a global 3s timer so let's split the difference and say that, on average, we'll get our tick of mana 1.5s after Transpose. This effectively makes one pass through the first rotation mentioned herein go as follows:

(154 + 180 + 468) / (3.5 + 3.0 + 4.0 + 1.5)
802 / 12 = 66.83

And a pass through the Fire II-less rotation go like this:

(154 + 468) / (3.5 + 4.0 + 1.5)
622 / 9 = 69.11

However, the CD on Transpose is 12s so even accounting for human error, latency, the split second you have to wait to Transpose after Flare so the game doesn't leave with 0 mana in AFIII, you'd still be a bit off on the timing which would easily knock the 2.3 PPS of difference between the two rotations.

Thanks for all the math, Deka. I'll update the OP accordingly.

F3? Ewww no! Flare > F2 > Flare! F3 is for wussies!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peptaru

F3? Ewww no! Flare > F2 > Flare! F3 is for wussies!

---

wat is dis i dont even

It was posted barely a few posts again, you can still do double flares, fire 2 is a timing control to make sure transpose is ready again. Surely you've been reading all the posts in here....

Sadly/ironically yes, you can still double flare. I'd wager its actually stronger now than before...

Flare under UI3 is 70% potency, under UI1 is 90% potency and under AF3 is 180% potency.
The old double-flare, IIRC was 2 Flares back-to-back, but then you had to wait for transpose to get back into UI for mana. It was UI3, Flare at half speed, get the tick after Flare goes off, Flare again at full strength, and be out of mana again, and wait for transpose. So Flare*(.7+1.8)/12 - recast time of Transpose.
Or was it F3 in UI3 -> Fast Flare under AF3... and wait for transpose... either way.

The new trick is to go out of UI1 and double Flare using the right timing. The new method is Flare*(0.9+1.8)/12... so its actually better than the old trick, just slower, but more potency over the 12s time period.

So the bandaid fix for UI3 dropping partway though a F3 cast has failed to address the "core problem" and only served to make the ST rotation more awkward...

Yeah, can we get this "fix" reverted please? Just put a 10s recast on Flare, and make Swiftcast also refresh the cooldown on Flare.
Then we would have fluid mana ticks all the time. We wont be able to spam double Flares. And we can still Flare-Convert-Swiftcast-Flare, since Swiftcast would refresh Flare.

#BlackMageFixed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kenji1134

Yeah, can we get this "fix" reverted please? Just put a 10s recast on Flare
#BlackMageFixed

---

LOL no. Flare consumes all your mana, I think that's a big enough of a punishment for using it, we don't need bull like 10 secs recast time.

I would gladly take a 10 second cooldown on Flare if it meant that we're getting the old UI/AF changing back.

I think the best fix to using double flares would be to make it so bad that no one would ever want to use it. It would be very simple to do. Just give it the same properties as Fire 1 instead of Fire 3 regarding AF/UI stacking.

As is, Flare gives you a full stack of astral fire when casted. Double Flare from umbral ice is strong because the first Flare is reduced potency, but it grants AF3, and the second Flare is full power.

If Flare acted like Fire 1 instead, the first Flare would be reduced potency and only remove umbral ice, while the second Flare would be under no umbral ice or astral fire.

This would make double Flare via umbral ice so impotent that no one would waste time with it, while at the same time not nerfing the spell in any way for it's intended purposes. Flare is clearly meant to be used while already under AF3, not as a means to attain AF3, as the spell drains all of your mana. Making this change would only emphasize that intention.

Implementing this "nerf" could effectively kill double flare and then hopefully they would give us back our previous UI/AF swapping mechanics.

The change wasn't just about double flare. They also said that they didn't want us double dipping from the reduced cast times.
Though I agree that it was a band-aid fix since I doubt the awkward UI phase was an intended consequence.

The core problem wasn't double flare itself, but casting speeds involved with doing the flares iirc. So they did "fix" the issue,

Looks like the guy above beat me. Lol

While I agree that it's a glitch and I understand that no game designer wants one in their game, I wonder what is so bad about having double dipping...assuming they fixed double flare somehow? For the sake of conversation I would point out that, as far as AOE rotations, double dipping rotations wouldn't be as strong with the Blizzard 2 nerf. We have a "legit" rotation now that's almost as strong as the pre 2.1 double dipping, un-nerfed Blizzard 2 rotation. Plus, how much did double dipping really help ST rotations? DD'ing your first Fire 1 didn't really gain dps due to GCD, although it did give you enough time to see if your F1 proc'd. But that's something we should be able to do anyways. DD'ing into another F3 was more damage but only allowed you to cast 4 F1's, giving you one less chance at a free F3 proc...kind of a wash.

So, I suppose the question is, post 2.1, assuming double flare was fixed, would double dipping be so good as to be considered broken?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Synovius

Thanks for all the math, Deka. I'll update the OP accordingly.

---

You're welcome, but your math has a number of mistakes:

• Fire 3 after Transpose has a potency of 198, not 154. This is because Transpose puts you into UI1, which is only a 10% damage reduction. I made the same mistake before.
• You're not taking multiple targets into account, which means that all of your formulas are based one target. That is, if a 100 potency attack hits 3 targets, it counts as 300 potency. That's why I have N in my formulas.
• Taking multiple targets into account, Fire 2 generally increases DPS for 3 or more targets.
• You don't have to average out the wait time for a mana tick. I already explained that in a previous post. Each rotation is an exact multiple of 3s.
• If you cut out Fire 2 entirely, then you'll have 5.5s of doing nothing because you'll be waiting for Transpose's CD (and you won't gain any mana ticks because you'll be in AF3 the whole time). This is (468N + 198) / 12 = 39N + 16.5 PPS.

As I said, I haven't tried the double Flare rotation yet. I need to practice it before being able to say anything else about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by O-Deka-K

You're welcome, but your math has a number of mistakes:

• Fire 3 after Transpose has a potency of 198, not 154. This is because Transpose puts you into UI1, which is only a 10% damage reduction. I made the same mistake before.
• You're not taking multiple targets into account, which means that all of your formulas are based one target. That is, if a 100 potency attack hits 3 targets, it counts as 300 potency. That's why I have N in my formulas.
• Taking multiple targets into account, Fire 2 generally increases DPS for 3 or more targets.
• You don't have to average out the wait time for a mana tick. I already explained that in a previous post. Each rotation is an exact multiple of 3s.
• If you cut out Fire 2 entirely, then you'll have 5.5s of doing nothing because you'll be waiting for Transpose's CD (and you won't gain any mana ticks because you'll be in AF3 the whole time). This is (468N + 198) / 12 = 39N + 16.5 PPS.

As I said, I haven't tried the double Flare rotation yet. I need to practice it before being able to say anything else about it.

---

1) Thanks for pointing out that UI1 is 10% and not 30%. Noted.
2) I see what you mean about multiple targets. My error was one of semantics in that what I've shown is basically an AoE rotation done on a single target. To extrapolate this out to multiple targets, I obviously wouldn't want to multiple everything by N where N is the number of targets because Fire III is ST. So I wouldn't say there was an error in my math here - just a difference of semantics.
3) I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at when saying that Fire 2 would increase DPS for 3 or more targets. Are you implying that it wouldn't be a DPS increase for 2 targets? What is this a DPS increase over?
4) I may be mistaken but I thought mana ticks were done on a global 3s timer meaning that when one starts their rotation would matter and therefore I can't comfortably make every rotation an exact multiple of 3s. You also might want to consider some human error or latency here.
5) I already said exactly what you just said: that cutting out Fire 2 entirely will cause you to wait around on Transpose.

I finally tried the double-Flare rotations and they work great! I timed them to make sure that the rotation times were correct. So, to reiterate:

Transpose > wait 2s > Flare > Flare
Potency formula: (702 x N) / 12 = 58.5N PPS
where N is the number of targets

Transpose > wait 2s > Flare > Fire 2 > Flare
Potency formula: (882 x N) / 15 = 58.8N PPS

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Synovius

2) semantics

---

Fine, but by only showing the damage on a single target and following your explanation, you're giving the impression that adding more F2 always lowers the PPS. It lowers it when N = 1 or N = 2; it raises it when N = 3 or more.

When graphed, the formulas are simply straight lines (y = mx + b), and they cross between 2 and 3.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Synovius

4) mana ticks

---

Yes, they are on a global timer, which is precisely why they are always an exact multiple of 3s. Okay, human error or latency can cause problems with any 12s rotation (if you hit Transpose late) or any rotation that is really tight. However, most of these rotations have a buffer of 1 or 2 seconds.

And yes, when you happen to start does affect when you get the mana tick, but only the first time through. After that, your rotation is entirely dependent on the mana tick.

Updated OP with some more information in the tricks sections.

If you guys want an easy way to time the double flare, use this macro.

/wait 1
/ac "Flare"
/wait 4.5
/ac "Flare"

I did some testing, and it works 100% if I press it as fast as I can naturally react to a mana tick all the way up to what feels like halfway to the next mana tick. I keep a healthy stock of mega ethers hotbar'd, and this has made me very confident for pulling off pentaflares.

Fire 3 > Raging Strikes > Flare > convert > Flare > Mega Int Pot > Swiftcast > Flare > Transpose during GCD > wait for mana tick > double Flare macro gets it done.

Edit: You're probably gonna want to add in some Quelling Strikes as well. :p

Also, this all fits within a transpose cool down almost perfectly, so it effectively syncs itself up to the server ticks after the first rotation just like Transpose > Fire 3 > Fire 2 > Flare. So if you wanted an easy 2 button steady stream of flares, this will do it.

Could anyone give me some advice on how to handle conflag for turn 5? Specifically a good rotation for fast conflag? I'm used to doing T5 with my DRG and I know techniques like setting up disembowel for conflag for that extra 10% dmg boost makes all the difference.

Hey Karasumori

For the fast Conflagarations, I plan in advance. About 5-10 seconds before a fast conflag, no matter where I'm at in my rotation, I hit Blizzard III==>Thunder II and then Fire III. I then will cast 1-2 Fireballs on Twin to try and get a Firestarter proc. When the Conflag drops, I hit [TAB] once which immediately targets the Conflag and I do Fire ==> Firestarter and then do Fire I spam. I will usually throw in a Swiftcast + Flare at the end if I feel we're taking too long on them.

If I don't get a Firestarter proc I simply do Fire I spam on the Conflag and almost always throw a Swiftcast + Flare out after a few Fire I.

For AoE rotation. I don't recall who said this, but transpose right after oom for instant tick then Fire III immediately does not really work well. The reason is the second tick is always 3 seconds wait if I'm not mistaken. First instant tick is 1.2k, enough for one Fire III followed by one Fire II. I don't know why this never works for me but I adapted a different strat, I either wait a full second before I cast Fire III to catch mana tick mid cast or just use Bliz III then back to Fire III > Fire II.

It really depends I guess from one fight to another as there are specific events for AoE rotation. Lets take Turn 4 for example, transition phase, here is what I do:

Move away from the centre , selecting one of the centre bugs as my main targets making sure I'm going to hit both rooks. Fire III > Fire II until oom > Bliz III > Fire III > Fire II once (changing targets in the process to the highest health bug) > QS > Raging Strike > Mega Int > Foe macro (yes I have a foe party chat spam macro with annoying sound) > Flare > Convert > Swiftcast > Flare. Using this method I clean everything and usually the phase ends few second before the next one starts.

I'm not saying this is the best method but this is what is currently working very well for me. Transpose followed by Fire III never reliably works for me, always just one instant tick, never two unless I wait a second. Maybe it is due to my high ping (300+).

I have to ask, but why are you guys putting the fire II in-between the double flare? I have found that 2 seconds after the mana tick lets me hit flare x2 and then transpose is ready. Then hit transpose and wait for the 2 seconds after mana tick repeat...no need for fire II. Or is it to sync it so you don't have to watch the mana bar and count to 2?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pinworms

I have to ask, but why are you guys putting the fire II in-between the double flare? I have found that 2 seconds after the mana tick lets me hit flare x2 and then transpose is ready. Then hit transpose and wait for the 2 seconds after mana tick repeat...no need for fire II. Or is it to sync it so you don't have to watch the mana bar and count to 2?

---

It is insurance policy more than anything, in turn 4 and other cases, you want the second flare to be the absolute end of the phase. As a BLM, you can't afford to have anything alive in the bug and rooks phase after the second flare. It is the same thing with the two adds in Titan ex, you need them to die or close to it by the end of the second flare.

Second flare in turn 4? I am hitting flares back to back multiple times with only a 2 -3 second wait on transpose whenever the tick hits, in turn 4. You only do 2? Am I doing something wrong? I understand the insurance policy, but it you wait the 2 seconds after a mana tick your gonna be fine.

Fire III -> astral fire III - flare - transpose - wait 2 seconds on first mana tick - flare - flare - transpose - wait 2 seconds on first mana tick - flare - flare - transpose etc. I don't know if the damage output is the same as putting the fire II in between or our other rotation of fire III - fire II - flare - transpose - fire III - fire II - flare etc.