Is most of FFXIV's failings due to their choice of engine?

It's not just how great the environment looks... Blade and Soul can interact with theirs. The only way we can interact is the doors in Copperbell Mines

Yes, IMO.

If they had went the unreal route like most others they could have focused on making a great game instead of making the engine work.

Of course you would get people bitching that omg it looks like a Korean mmo (bullshit, engine doesn't dictate art direction), but they are the same retarded fanboys that defend the game like it was perfect right now.

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Originally Posted by Ava

I didn't read the whole thread but I don't think the engine is entirely the issue. Using DX9 is a major issue when it comes to performance, but I honestly think that one of the bigger reasons for the blasnd environments, boring animations, etc, is because of PS3 limitations. PS3 has very low memory, it can't load half as much as an average PC. When you see beautiful console games it's because the worlds are fairly closed off and the console doesn't have to load as much, but in a MMO where worlds are completely open, that's a bit of a problem.

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Ahem, there are plenty sandbox games with large open environments on consoles, PS3 included. GTA4, Fallout 3, Red Dead Redemption and so forth.

Again, the PS3 version has been delayed exactly in order to solve the memory issues. This removes any ground under the feet of the "the PC version is limited by the PS3 one" theory.
Mind you, the extensive use of tiled ground is easily explained by time/dev resources constraint, and by the fact that they were the first to be developed, paired with the fact that *every* mmorpg out there uses asset recycling.

Looking at areas that were obviously designed later, like cohertas and mor dhona, you easily see that the recycling issues aren't nearly as visible (and they look awesome).

If they really were constrained by memory limitations as some people continue to say, there'd be zoninng between open areas and cities/dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Allcars

Having tried to explain all my reasons to you, You seem to not be able to understand the basic understanding of art style and how it ties in with texture detail, poly counts, shading, and all around graphical direction.

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There's nothing to understand there. There's no tie.
Art direction is one thing. Graphics detail is a completely different thing.
One is a matter of style. The other is a matter of engine and hardware.

The only correlation is that the engine can limit access to some extreme graphical styles due to hardware limitations, for instance a completely photo-realistic style is almost impossible in a MMORPG under any engine.

Other than that, there's no relation. It's not a matter of style. It's a matter of engine. Crystal tools has demonstrated to be able to support extremely detailed characters, high resolution textures and texture effects and an extremely long field of vision in a MMORPG environment. The UE3 hasn't. It's that simple.

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Here is some food for thought, the ps3 was due to be release in march correct? by then the ps3 limitations would have been figured out, if they have been figured out why isn't it release right away instead of waiting for an expansion to release. Much like they did with XI and the ps2.

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Correlation dosn't imply causation. The first delay was due to solving memory limitations, as factually stated by the developer itself. The second delay is a completely different animal, again, as factually stated by the developer itself.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Yes, IMO.

If they had went the unreal route like most others they could have focused on making a great game instead of making the engine work.

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LOL. because using a third party engine is obviously much easier than use their in-house engine to which their developers and artists are used and in which they are already experienced right?
The things I have to read...

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Ahem, there are plenty sandbox games with large open environments on consoles, PS3 included. GTA4, Fallout 3, Red Dead Redemption and so forth.

Again, the PS3 version has been delayed exactly in order to solve the memory issues. This removes any ground under the feet of the "the PC version is limited by the PS3 one" theory.
Mind you, the extensive use of tiled ground is easily explained by time/dev resources constraint, and by the fact that they were the first to be developed, paired with the fact that *every* mmorpg out there uses asset recycling.

Looking at areas that were obviously designed later, like cohertas and mor dhona, you easily see that the recycling issues aren't nearly as visible (and they look awesome).

If they really were constrained by memory limitations as some people continue to say, there'd be zoninng between open areas and cities/dungeons.

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(Dont feed the troll, dont feed the troll, dont feed the troll.... damn!)

I've never played any of the games you listed but aren't you contradicting an argument you've been making in this thread and on these forums? Comparing apples to oranges? Those 3 games you listed belong in an entirely different genre, don't need to load unique player characters constantly, and I am pretty sure they don't have a world comparable to that of a MMO (despite what you say). You even admitted truth to my reasoning (memory issues). So, you must just be trolling, ah well.

Actually Abriael is the only one making sense in this whole discussion.

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Originally Posted by Ava

(Dont feed the troll, dont feed the troll, dont feed the troll.... damn!)

I've never played any of the games you listed but aren't you contradicting an argument you've been making in this thread and on these forums? Comparing apples to oranges? Those 3 games you listed belong in an entirely different genre, don't need to load unique player characters constantly, and I am pretty sure they don't have a world comparable to that of a MMO (despite what you say). You even admitted truth to my reasoning (memory issues). So, you must just be trolling, ah well.

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Unfortunately for your extremely flawed theories, there's no contradiction.
GTA4, for instance, has to display a crapton of character models and other mobiles (like cars for instance), so it's entirely comparable to a MMORPG in the field of hardware resources. Yet, it works on a console, simply because the memory limitations can be worked around in several ways.

Which is, by the way, the whole reason why they delayed the PS3 version and not the PC one. They had to work around the memory limitations of the PS3 without limiting the PC version.
if the PS3 version limited the PC version, they would have delayed both. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

LOL. because using a third party engine is obviously much easier than use their in-house engine to which their developers and artists are used and in which they are already experienced right?
The things I have to read...

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You mean a true tested, highly polished, highly flexible, super optimized, next-gen supporting engine vs their in-house engine that is lacking even the very most basic optimizations?

You sir, are made of ignorance and fail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzjsTt_DzCw

Thank god someone else who understands what I am talking about.

There is a contradiction, its as clear as bloody day....
You are talking about games that are designed for consoles, all the examples you have listed are based on the consoles limitations. From memory (and will probably need some corrections as I am not a expert) the difference between a sandbox game and a mmorpg or any mmo tbh is going to be whats going on behind the scenes. Those sandbox games, you used gta4 as an example so i will to. You said it has to display a crapton of character and car models however these all operate on an algorithm written into the games code so nothing happens without a trigger of some kind be it reaching a street corner or entering a park. where as in a mmo outside of the limited NPCs everything is unscripted characters move randomly may log out or have a large log in of players all around you. all of these factor into the memory usage of a game, then there are the models to be rendered. so we have to wait for information from the server to reach us (this is related to your internet connection, but still somewhat relevant i feel) in that time have the players moved, have more people logged in or out/entered the area you are currently in, changed gears etcetc. so your rig be it pc or console is tracking and processing all of this info. From this I assume that a simple sandbox such as gta4 is incomparable to a mmo.

There is more that could be added and if someone here cares to add and elaborate more or even correct me that would be much appreciated however its 430am here and I really can't be bothered to type more.

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Originally Posted by Allcars

I never played XI, but lets take a look at what the Devs envisioned for FFXIV, Look at the lighting, the shading the architecture, the real time water reflections. What happened, sure don't get me wrong FFXIV looks amazing, I max the game out, but should the cost of resources it requires to run at the highest quality be justified for what we have currently? I think not, a game like blade and soul has better shading and lighting, sure it may have lower texture quality, but look at how nice it looks blade and soul looks as is. When you are using Unreal Engine 3 you also get fantastic lighting realtime water effects amazing shading detail rich character detail, no load zones so you can steam content. All at very low resources on your hardware. Crystal tool may have potential, but currently the only potential I have seen is the character detail, and sometimes with the clipping errors, and lack of more realistic cloth physics that is bogged down.

Don't get me wrong I love playing FFXIV, I just think they could have optimized more visually for currently high level hardware than what we currently have. Low detailed water, lighting that reminds me of more unreal 2.x, load zones, shadows that eat up any high end hardware.

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As many of you know and have already stated. We have Zones the game does not steam the data of the area SO imagine this. If we had environmental shadows that had to interact with us and water reflections of the whole light effects that occur in one game day. That is a massive resources hog for any video card witch i would say would make FFXIV even less playable with current hardware as it is now.

If they manage to implement steaming of data then can fix the areas just changing some bit maps but until then really don't expect it since it would make the game the most resources needed game comparing it to fur mark 11