[dev1002] The entire world lacking as a battle environment.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Death penalties just make people a bunch of pansies. The op admited to hiding in the basement of the ferry. I had that same story, except we fought the damn skeletons. and we won! (of course when sea horror popped and one shotted me i didnt end up making it to bubumiru...) What made that exciting for me was not the fear of losing exp, it was the new exciting thing that happened unexpectedly and facing that threat, wondering what rewards i might get for doing these difficult tasks. People in FFXI by an large played like a bunch of punks, people were afraid to try difficult things *by and large until someone else came along and figured out how to do it. People kissed peoples butts and tried to just get in on something once some linkshell figured out how to do it with minimal death, most people ran from challenges, or begged for help for 10 hours.

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So you state that "we fought the damn skeletons. and we won!" yet contradict yourself by saying "Death penalties just make people a bunch of pansies. The op admited to hiding in the basement of the ferry." Clearly it does not as YOU stated YOU fought them, and won! Good job! You got a group together and faced a challenge.

Did you feel accomplished, was it exciting because IF YOU DIED there was a risk and penalty (you can say no, but there is no argument it clearly adds to the game, making you angry doesn't mean it had a negative affect), and IF YOU WON there was a reward? You wanted to see what drops they had? You felt like trying something new?

Great Job, I am two sentences in and am not going to waste my time going any further with your post...

This game needs to stop catering to children and people who want a mindless zergfest and everything handed to them on a silver platter. Prime example: Little red sunshine's. When I logged in after the update and saw this I couldn't help but think to myself 'you have got to be kidding, did everyone wake up and get on the short bus this morning?'

Walking up to a mob the first time and having it aggro you should do two things:
1) Put you at risk (when you die, it shouldn't just HP you and set you on a 2 min timer, that's pathetic)
2) Teach you a lesson so you can LEARN and CORRECT yourself in the future, its called progression its what these games are about.

The death penalty is only one minor aspect, the game needs a thrill even the minor events like running from a mob and escaping (not the run 10 ft and it returns kind). This is one minor detail for a very broad subject.

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Originally Posted by Bre

So you state that "we fought the damn skeletons. and we won!" yet contradict yourself by saying "Death penalties just make people a bunch of pansies. The op admited to hiding in the basement of the ferry." Clearly it does not as YOU stated YOU fought them, and won! Good job! You got a group together and faced a challenge.

Did you feel accomplished, was it exciting because IF YOU DIED there was a risk and penalty (you can say no, but there is no argument it clearly adds to the game, making you angry doesn't mean it had a negative affect), and IF YOU WON there was a reward? You wanted to see what drops they had? You felt like trying something new?

Great Job, I am two sentences in and am not going to waste my time going any further with your post...

This game needs to stop catering to children and people who want a mindless zergfest and everything handed to them on a silver platter. Prime example: Little red sunshine's. When I logged in after the update and saw this I couldn't help but think to myself 'you have got to be kidding, did everyone wake up and get on the short bus this morning?'

Walking up to a mob the first time and having it aggro you should do two things:
1) Put you at risk (when you die, it shouldn't just HP you and set you on a 2 min timer, that's pathetic)
2) Teach you a lesson so you can LEARN and CORRECT yourself in the future, its called progression its what these games are about.

The death penalty is only one minor aspect, the game needs a thrill even the minor events like running from a mob and escaping (not the run 10 ft and it returns kind). This is one minor detail for a very broad subject.

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Sorry but for a lot of people like the one your responding to the death penalty means nothing and has no effect on the enjoyment of the game. Thats why the people that seem to be for it hide while the people that it doesn't add a sense of danger for just go for it. It doesn't add anything it's just an annoyance to us.

First of all let me say that it brings me a certain joy to hear that so many XI veterans enjoyed reading my opening post. I certainly enjoyed writing it because to do so I got to reflect back on it.
It goes without saying that XI veterans, whether hardcore Tiamat Trouncers or casual socialites, seem to have a sort of bond between them that I do not see in other MMOs. It was such an amazing odyssey from beginning to end, defined mostly by the memory of our friends. "Community" defines us, to be sure.

That is likely why it's so difficult to listen to the WoW invasion force swarm the FFXIV forums and tell us what does and does not make a great game. We know what makes a great game. We've played one. It was called Final Fantasy XI.

I'm reading through all of these posts that claim a penalty for death adds nothing to the game; that it only hinders your progression and wastes your time. Well, quite honestly, I don't know what it is you get out of MMO's. I don't know what MMO's you've played (although I have a few good guesses!) and I don't really care.

What I do know, is that in Final Fantasy XI, when making a desperate escape from a monster above and beyond our capabilities, I sincerely appreciated the efforts of, say, the Paladin, who provoked the mob of his fleeing comrades and perhaps even died to see that the rest of us survived. Under your system, that doesn't impress me in the slightest.
One needs only visit youtube to see the difference in mentality. In every World of Warcraft remembrance movie i've ever seen, it was nothing but a bunch of CS's, snapshots, and raid zergs, while in the Final Fantasy tributes (which seem to vastly outnumber the WoW) it is a montage of friends.

As for hiding from a lvl 70 NM Pirate and his crew of lvl 40 pirates... Ya, I was a level 10.
Even Gandalf the Grey knew it was time to run when the Balrog made his grand appearance. The book and movie would have been pretty lame if Frodo just chopped through everything he encountered. But that goes back to what I said Final Fantasy was about, and that's the journey. I didn't hide from the pirates forever.

Later on, when my friend wanted a drop from the NM, Captain, they seemed to hide from me.

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Originally Posted by DarthTaru

That is likely why it's so difficult to listen to the WoW invasion force swarm the FFXIV forums and tell us what does and does not make a great game. We know what makes a great game. We've played one. It was called Final Fantasy XI.

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you damned hypocrite.

The Wow players have long gone back or switched to Rift. You'll have to find another scapegoat.

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Originally Posted by DarthTaru

First of all let me say that it brings me a certain joy to hear that so many XI veterans enjoyed reading my opening post. I certainly enjoyed writing it because to do so I got to reflect back on it.
It goes without saying that XI veterans, whether hardcore Tiamat Trouncers or casual socialites, seem to have a sort of bond between them that I do not see in other MMOs. It was such an amazing odyssey from beginning to end, defined mostly by the memory of our friends. "Community" defines us, to be sure.

That is likely why it's so difficult to listen to the WoW invasion force swarm the FFXIV forums and tell us what does and does not make a great game. We know what makes a great game. We've played one. It was called Final Fantasy XI.

I'm reading through all of these posts that claim a penalty for death adds nothing to the game; that it only hinders your progression and wastes your time. Well, quite honestly, I don't know what it is you get out of MMO's. I don't know what MMO's you've played (although I have a few good guesses!) and I don't really care.

What I do know, is that in Final Fantasy XI, when making a desperate escape from a monster above and beyond our capabilities, I sincerely appreciated the efforts of, say, the Paladin, who provoked the mob of his fleeing comrades and perhaps even died to see that the rest of us survived. Under your system, that doesn't impress me in the slightest.
One needs only visit youtube to see the difference in mentality. In every World of Warcraft remembrance movie i've ever seen, it was nothing but a bunch of CS's, snapshots, and raid zergs, while in the Final Fantasy tributes (which seem to vastly outnumber the WoW) it is a montage of friends.

As for hiding from a lvl 70 NM Pirate and his crew of lvl 40 pirates... Ya, I was a level 10.
Even Gandalf the Grey knew it was time to run when the Balrog made his grand appearance. The book and movie would have been pretty lame if Frodo just chopped through everything he encountered. But that goes back to what I said Final Fantasy was about, and that's the journey. I didn't hide from the pirates forever.

Later on, when my friend wanted a drop from the NM, Captain, they seemed to hide from me.

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You've made a poor assumption. I do not like WoW and I am a FFXI veteran.

Well I am neither a FFXI vet nor a WoW fan... I am even worse!!! I left Guild Wars for XIV after some friends tried getting me into XI. This has nothing to do with that but just giving some background. But seriously, excluding the whole "death penalty" thing - which it seems this thread is going to very fast - I believe the OP described a great adventure in XI that he experienced not as a level 50 or what ever the level cap was at that point, but as a mere level 10. From just reading this, I wish I was there myself.

Now please don't slander me or anything else, but I believe XIV from what it started as to what it is now, has made a giant leap. There are things we aren't all going to agree upon and things we will agree upon. The major thing we need to pull out of the OP is not the death penalty - which everyone seems to be focusing on which is beyond me - is that of the lack of adventure, the lack of surprise, the lack of suspense, the lack of challenge etc.

I agree with the OP that the game defiantly needs some things added to it, however, I agree with the "troll" that yes it is a different game, it isn't XI. If there is something you want, like the adventures of XI then try to make it work for XIV. If we pull anything out of this whole entire thread, it is the lack of .... that the game has to offer. In the end, it will be up to the developers to decide what they put in and what they think will be worth it. All we can do its voice our opinions.

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Originally Posted by shots

Well I am neither a FFXI vet nor a WoW fan... I am even worse!!! I left Guild Wars for XIV after some friends tried getting me into XI. This has nothing to do with that but just giving some background. But seriously, excluding the whole "death penalty" thing - which it seems this thread is going to very fast - I believe the OP described a great adventure in XI that he experienced not as a level 50 or what ever the level cap was at that point, but as a mere level 10. From just reading this, I wish I was there myself.

Now please don't slander me or anything else, but I believe XIV from what it started as to what it is now, has made a giant leap. There are things we aren't all going to agree upon and things we will agree upon. The major thing we need to pull out of the OP is not the death penalty - which everyone seems to be focusing on which is beyond me - is that of the lack of adventure, the lack of surprise, the lack of suspense, the lack of challenge etc.

I agree with the OP that the game defiantly needs some things added to it, however, I agree with the "troll" that yes it is a different game, it isn't XI. If there is something you want, like the adventures of XI then try to make it work for XIV. If we pull anything out of this whole entire thread, it is the lack of .... that the game has to offer. In the end, it will be up to the developers to decide what they put in and what they think will be worth it. All we can do its voice our opinions.

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I'm right there with you and agree and like most of the high adventure that was in FFXI and is not in FFXIV. However the op has made it clear that he thinks it was the death penalty that made it that way and not the great content that FFXI had and FFXIV lacks.

I definetly think its the high adventure missing from this game. Its really that the content is few and far between in this game. The levels dont seem that well planned out either. The zones tend not to have many landmarks. Its real lack is in most of these things. The death penalty isnt what made ffxi.

By the way the guy that responded to me, i wasnt contradicting myself. It was because i didnt care about the death penalty, that i had fun. I will admit i was more impressed with the tank who sacrificed thier exp for the team, or the whm that benedictioned in the crucial moment, but those people were few and far between.

oh yeah, and im pretty sure those skeletons were probably like level 20 or so, sea horror was way higher, but the skeles were fodder.

I'm with xzen, sogiya and others (although I find myself wishing the discussion was more civil), a death penalty does not in itself make anything more challenging. It makes games more tedious, and as I often try to explain to ls members, they are not the same thing. A challenging experience is one where you feel like you've achieved something after you've beaten it, and the challenge itself should be fun. Let's say this is your average boss fight in an RPG. You spend 5, maybe 10 minutes on the average one, if it's hard you might need to reload to your save (which without fail will be right before the boss in any decent game), and you beat it in 2-3 tries after learning from your mistakes.

A tedious experience is one where you're bored, want it to end already, and/or are actively not having fun. FFXIV is currently filled with tedium, not challenge. Having to actually load up market wards and walk to retainers to buy items is time you're not doing something like killing baddies or crafting an awesome item. The current death penalty is an exercise in tedium, since the game is actively preventing you from doing anything fun while you're weakened. However, it's much better than FFXI's death penalty, where a single screw up by anyone in your party--or worse, something beyond your control like someone aggroing a train of mobs before the spawn change or a pop that resists Sleep unexpectedly, as occasionally happened to even the best BLM/RDM because of RNG--could undo hours or days worth of mindless grinding.

Unfortunately, tedium pervaded a lot of FFXI. for instance I never actually enjoyed xp parties, per se, I just tolerated them as a way to get higher levels. While I may have had fun interactions with people and made lasting friends in them, they were nothing I couldn't have had in a context involving multiple quests or dungeons instead. For example, I've made friends in City of Heroes, Guild Wars, and WoW too. The death penalty and the grind aren't what make good social experiences, it's working together as a team, and nothing about the death penalty does that. If anything, it makes people much less patient with other players for perceived mistakes.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, all a death penalty does is make people much more hesitant to actually adventure, which is what we're supposed to do in MMOs, because they're afraid of death. Early in my FFXI career, I was quite hesitant to do high risk content because death meant hours of grind. When I stopped paying attention to the death penalty because I was getting xp incidentally from doing content I actually enjoyed (Campaign), I started doing more content and having more fun, but notice that was after I stopped paying attention to the death penalty. Similarly, in other games like the ones I've mentioned, I have generally been much more willing to try risky, or even reckless things, and more importantly I've ENJOYED myself doing them, because the fun is in the experience of doing things, not being afraid of death.

Bottom line, death penalties do not make games challenging or fun, at least not for those of us who aren't masochistic. A boss fight isn't harder because it takes you a long time to fight it again if you fail, it's hard because the actual fight is difficult. A group isn't inherently more likely to bond if there's a large penalty for mistakes. In fact, they're less likely to take risks and more likely to blow up at anyone who makes a mistake, and we've all had off days.

Lastly, this game is not FFXI-2. I had great years and lots of fun playing FFXI and have made some great friends, but that was in the past and that was not this game. I am tired of the grind in FFXI, and came to FFXIV because I was looking for a modernized experience with an FF spin. If I still liked FFXI's mechanics, I would still be playing FFXI, but like many people I've grown tired of them and want a new experience. SE should target these people, ones who are not content with FFXI, because they are a majority of the market and are an unexploited resource. Innovation and keeping up with the times are how to stay relevant, not trying to recreate old magic by repeating the same trick.

tl:dr DP isn't good, content and people are.